Contradictions In The Martial Arts

[Steve]

I was asking a question myself.

I think it would be difficult, at least the way I'm looking at it, to equate trade titles to martial arts ranks.

Journeymen are supposed to have working competency, but still require supervision. Masters do not require supervision.

Titles in that context would run contrary to shoshin, since we're all supposed to still be learning.

I think it's a good question and one I've thought about a few times over the years, as well. I agree that it's difficult in some cases, but I don't think it should be. Or maybe more to the point, if it is difficult, that's an indication that there's something goofy within the school or style... some disconnect between what they say they're teaching, what they're evaluating when it comes to rank, and what students are actually learning to do.

If you look at the trades, or really in any area of expertise, novice/apprentice, journeyman, expert, and master equate to objective performance standards. It's pretty straightforward, because it tracks to a logical progression of skill that comes from a lot of experience and training.

So, to answer your question, I agree that it's difficult for some styles or some schools to equate trade titles to martial arts ranks, and IMO, that's because they focus on things that they don't actually teach. But would say that for brands of MA that have clear goals along with objective, observable performance standards, it's really pretty easy. Just as it would be for pretty much any other complex skill set. Cooking, playing the guitar... you name it.

 

[HighKick]

I was asking a question myself.

I think it would be difficult, at least the way I'm looking at it, to equate trade titles to martial arts ranks.

Journeymen are supposed to have working competency, but still require supervision. Masters do not require supervision.

Titles in that context would run contrary to shoshin, since we're all supposed to still be learning.

Apprentices require supervision.
Journeymen should not. The caveat here is when it is a new, never performed installation or process. This is why Journeymen hate engineers so much. They get told what to do.
Master (insert trade) simply means they have been a Journeyman in their trade for xxx years and have met the union requirements.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So when it comes to contradictions in the martial arts one of the things Im talking about, which us sometimes done at some dojos mentioned on this forum by some of the forum users, is when they're really strict about belts and then they say that belts don't mean squat. To be really strict about belts and to say that belts don't mean squat is a big contradiction. Some people on this forum have described such dojos and Im not going to mention names as those people know who they are but that is exactly what Im talking about when I talk about contradictions in the martial arts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Something like this?

Brown belt = journeyman
Technical dan grades = craftsman
Honorary dan grades = master

I'd guess "master electrician" would be somewhere around the "instructor" ranks, or perhaps whatever ranks are relatively senior instructor. Depending on the system, that might happen at the honorary ranks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was asking a question myself.

I think it would be difficult, at least the way I'm looking at it, to equate trade titles to martial arts ranks.

Journeymen are supposed to have working competency, but still require supervision. Masters do not require supervision.

Titles in that context would run contrary to shoshin, since we're all supposed to still be learning.

I doubt a master electrician worth his salt would claim not to still be learning.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sounds pretty good, but I may not put Journeyman at brown/red since it is a fairly short-term stop on the belt progression.
If we were to define 1st Dan as the level where a person knows the majority of a curriculum or technical material, that is where I would start Journeymen.

That makes sense. Using the system I'm most familiar with (NGAA), I'd put "journeyman" at about purple belt (where the last of the foundational curriculum is learned). "Master" would then align with nidan (the first rank at which you can promote folks to instructor).

Of course, those ranks won't line up with other systems, but there's likely an analogous rank to each of those in most systems.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Apprentices require supervision.
Journeymen should not. The caveat here is when it is a new, never performed installation or process. This is why Journeymen hate engineers so much. They get told what to do.
Master (insert trade) simply means they have been a Journeyman in their trade for xxx years and have met the union requirements.

Hmm...that might change where I'd align those with ranks, then. Perhaps "journeyman" is instructor ranks, and "master" should be those honorary ranks, as previously posted.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So when it comes to contradictions in the martial arts one of the things Im talking about, which us sometimes done at some dojos mentioned on this forum by some of the forum users, is when they're really strict about belts and then they say that belts don't mean squat. To be really strict about belts and to say that belts don't mean squat is a big contradiction. Some people on this forum have described such dojos and Im not going to mention names as those people know who they are but that is exactly what Im talking about when I talk about contradictions in the martial arts.

I don't see the contradiction, if we don't get tied up in the vocabulary. The belt, itself (and even the rank) aren't what matter. It's the effort, discipline, and work that matter. So we do the things that matter, and the belt/rank is just a result. If we make a belt/rank hard to acquire, we're pushing the stuff that matters, and using the belt as a symbol they did it.

And, yes, there's an inherent contradiction, but it's minor. I cherish the achievement of my BB rank. I don't really care about the rank, except as an indicator of what I did. I never really cared what rank I was along the way, except what it let me do. The curriculum was mostly gated at ranks, some classes were available only once you'd passed a given rank (so you'd have the ability and curriculum needed to participate), and those who'd proven their ability (by testing and ranking) had the opportunity to do things like teach. The interesting classes, advanced learning, and opportunity to help others was what mattered - the belt/rank was just a means to those things.

 

[Hot Lunch]

And, yes, there's an inherent contradiction, but it's minor. I cherish the achievement of my BB rank. I don't really care about the rank, except as an indicator of what I did. I never really cared what rank I was along the way, except what it let me do. The curriculum was mostly gated at ranks, some classes were available only once you'd passed a given rank (so you'd have the ability and curriculum needed to participate), and those who'd proven their ability (by testing and ranking) had the opportunity to do things like teach. The interesting classes, advanced learning, and opportunity to help others was what mattered - the belt/rank was just a means to those things.

If there's a rule stating that you have to be of a certain rank to do a particular thing, then the rank means something. Especially if people who would otherwise be qualified are disqualified on the basis of rank.

 

[Bujingodai]

Rank doesn't matter. Now. Now that I am older and not a kyu rank. When I was a colour rank it mattered alot like it would most people I believe. Rank not mattering is something Yudansha say in my experience, me included.

Just my opinion

My students are not held back doing anything by their rank. However they are tested and don't get rank unless they can demonstrate a skill set. In our school that extends all the way to Rokudan.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If there's a rule stating that you have to be of a certain rank to do a particular thing, then the rank means something. Especially if people who would otherwise be qualified are disqualified on the basis of rank.

Again, I think you're missing the point of "doesn't matter". It's not an absolute, literal statement. If I say how much money someone makes doesn't matter to me, I mean it doesn't matter in how I feel about them. Of course, it would alter what activities I might suggest. I'm not going to suggest something expensive to someone who doesn't have the money, or at least I'll have to offer to pay - which will matter, but won't really matter.

 

[Fungus]

If you focus on the present moment and your next immediate step in your development - as opposed to comparing yourself with others or with some fictive expectation of the future - then how far you have gotten should not matter.

“Difficult to see; always in motion is the future.”
-- Yoda

I think an intrinsic development processes in general should be defined as relative progress. This is especially so because I think the space of possibilities gets larger as your develop, questions that was not visible from the beginning, is now getting visible and showing the path forwards. Any attempt to define this relative progress using external elements is likely an illusion.

That development appears to flatten at higher ranks, is I think more an arficact of the SCALE. Such as wether it's linear or logarithmic btween the marks.

 

[HighKick]

Hmm...that might change where I'd align those with ranks, then. Perhaps "journeyman" is instructor ranks, and "master" should be those honorary ranks, as previously posted.

Maybe in the martial arts, but I would say that is an outlier.

 

[HighKick]

I'd guess "master electrician" would be somewhere around the "instructor" ranks, or perhaps whatever ranks are relatively senior instructor. Depending on the system, that might happen at the honorary ranks.

It takes around 8,000 hours or four years to become a master electrician. I am certain it doesn't take that long to become an instructor in most styles.

 

[Fungus]

It takes around 8,000 hours or four years to become a master electrician. I am certain it doesn't take that long to become an instructor in most styles.

Wow...in our club our lowest ranked instructors has trained FAR longer than that. 4 years is not very long IMO. IF you are good and rank up at every opportunity you would be maybe 3-4 kyu after 4 years. Normally assistant instructors are at least green belts (4 kyu). Except for kids or beginner instructors. But our main instructors are normally black belts, or sometimes 1 kyu brown.

 

[drop bear]

So when it comes to contradictions in the martial arts one of the things Im talking about, which us sometimes done at some dojos mentioned on this forum by some of the forum users, is when they're really strict about belts and then they say that belts don't mean squat. To be really strict about belts and to say that belts don't mean squat is a big contradiction. Some people on this forum have described such dojos and Im not going to mention names as those people know who they are but that is exactly what Im talking about when I talk about contradictions in the martial arts.

I am sure I have mentioned this as a humble brag before.

In martial arts. You are supposed to be so mature as to not care about status. But in doing so is advertising this status of how mature you are.

It's obvious when people put on a show of this. But they think they are masterfully playing a role that is fooling everyone.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe in the martial arts, but I would say that is an outlier.

We were talking about how to align those tradesman tags with MA, so yes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It takes around 8,000 hours or four years to become a master electrician. I am certain it doesn't take that long to become an instructor in most styles.

It's certainly more hours than most put in (I might have hit that, but I was an exception), but you're also talking about distinction among folks who are doing that job 40 hours a week. The titles are relative to the population they're used in, so I think the analogy is apt. As for the number of years, I don't know of a style where it's common to reach instructor certification (whatever rank is considered a full instructor) in fewer than about 5 years.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wow...in our club our lowest ranked instructors has trained FAR longer than that. 4 years is not very long IMO. IF you are good and rank up at every opportunity you would be maybe 3-4 kyu after 4 years. Normally assistant instructors are at least green belts (4 kyu). Except for kids or beginner instructors. But our main instructors are normally black belts, or sometimes 1 kyu brown.

I think his point was about the hours, and that's apt. If you look at training hours, most serious students are maybe training 10-15 hours a week at most. Professional electricians are working something around 40 hours a week.

 

[Steve]

We were talking about how to align those tradesman tags with MA, so yes.

It's a topic that has come up before. My personal opinion, for whatever that's worth, is that this only really works with styles that are calibrated externally. People in the trades have to be able to rely on these tags. A master electrician, for example, is making decisions related to code compliance and safety, often for a large site. The grading requirements are established and evaluated independent of the individual's company and are an objective standard that applies to every electrician in the State.

For most MAs, this breaks down completely. it's really apples to oranges. In order for it to work, you have to focus more on just hours, and completely ignore the fact that there is no objective standard for skill or ability in MA.

In styles in which there is a lot of cross pollination (e.g., some combat sport oriented styles) you can get close. MMA, for example, is agnostic to style. You perform or you don't. So, you can begin to get to something approaching apprentice, journey, and master level evaluations in MMA that are not intrinsically linked to a specific style, like Karate or Muay Thai.

The key is having an objective, external evaluation, and I'm not aware of anything like that outside of combat sports. Are you?