"Common" Moves Not Found in Forms

[wab25]

I strongle believe in this.

I had a student who doesn't want to learn stance, footwork, partner drill, solo drill, form, stretching, ... He just wanted to spar. In that 8 months, he and I sparred 4 times a week, 2 hours each. He paid me $200 each month. Back in 1974 that was a good tuition (my UT Austin tuition was only $50 per semester). After 8 months, one day he got into a fight. None of his opponent's punches could land on him.

The funny thing was, in that 8 months, I had body pain everyday. After 8 months, suddently my body felt no pain. I started to feel uncomfortable about myself.

That person had learned from sparring. He didn't even know how to do a horse stance, or bow-arrow stance.

Sparring is a whole lot more useful for real life. partner and solo drill are important also, not as much as sparring. I said it many times, MA is the art of kicking butt, not to look graceful and pretty. We have ballet for that.

Must be good for you too, sparring with a beginner gives you a chance to run through all the drills easier and in slower speed. Both of you benefit from it.

If you have good sparring experience, you can't careless whether a form may hide any secret or not.

The reason is simple. If that hidden secret is useful, somebody had already found that out in the ring, or on the mat. If that hiddn secret is useless, that secret should be hidden forever.

Agree 100%

The more I read your posts, you are really MMA!!! You learn WC, Taiji and other stuffs like Wrestling etc. You get to pick out what is useful and what's not, throw out the useless stuffs and keep the ones that work in the real world. That's what MMA means. Nobody said you have to follow UFC MMA!!!

Yep, if those hidden secrets are useful, people would have use it in the ring like UFC. That's why I kept saying anyone think they are so good, proof it in the ring. Don't trash talk. One butt kicking speaks a 1000 words. I have not watched UFC for a month or so, I watched one just last night. I stand by everything I said. I only want to learn what's practical in real life, if it is so deep, they can keep it. If one think their style is useful, get into the ring, fight with those fancy moves and stance. Do NOT go up there and fight like typical Muy Thai/BJJ. Use their own moves to win.

I guess I am very shallow, I only study who's butt is being kicked and who's kicking butt. I only look at techniques that kick butts.

So.... go train in systems that have no kata or forms... train in systems that only spar. There are plenty out there. If that is what makes sense to you, and you enjoy it that way and see the benefits... then find a system that trains that way.

What I don't understand is all the effort to tear down systems that have forms or kata. If other people train that way and find value in that type of training... why should that matter to you?

I have always wondered why people can't just choose the thing that works for them. For some reason, they always feel this need to tear down the thing they don't choose. Why put in so much effort to go after a style of training that you don't like? Why not just pick the style of training you like and be happy?

If we could take the energy we put into tearing down and proving that another style of training is outdated, worthless, not efficient, not complete... etc and spend that energy discussing, things we have learned or are trying to learn... we would all be a bit better off for it. And if we go the next step, and respect each others styles of training, even though it may not be for us... we might be able to learn from each other and improve our technique. That other style of training may show off and emphasize different details. If we spent our energy looking at how each style focuses on different aspects, and how to bring those aspects into our preferred style of training... we would all be better off.

Yes, you have conclusively proved that forms and kata are old, outdated, useless and not practical for martial arts training. You are right. Now, can we spend that energy discussing things we learn and are learning and how to improve our respective techniques?

Also, please forgive me if I continue to find value in those old, outdated, useless and impractical kata and forms... its a problem I have.

 

[Olde Phart]

"Way to go, Dallas!" (to coin a phrase) I mean, wab25!

 

[Alan0354]

So.... go train in systems that have no kata or forms... train in systems that only spar. There are plenty out there. If that is what makes sense to you, and you enjoy it that way and see the benefits... then find a system that trains that way.

What I don't understand is all the effort to tear down systems that have forms or kata. If other people train that way and find value in that type of training... why should that matter to you?

I have always wondered why people can't just choose the thing that works for them. For some reason, they always feel this need to tear down the thing they don't choose. Why put in so much effort to go after a style of training that you don't like? Why not just pick the style of training you like and be happy?

If we could take the energy we put into tearing down and proving that another style of training is outdated, worthless, not efficient, not complete... etc and spend that energy discussing, things we have learned or are trying to learn... we would all be a bit better off for it. And if we go the next step, and respect each others styles of training, even though it may not be for us... we might be able to learn from each other and improve our technique. That other style of training may show off and emphasize different details. If we spent our energy looking at how each style focuses on different aspects, and how to bring those aspects into our preferred style of training... we would all be better off.

Yes, you have conclusively proved that forms and kata are old, outdated, useless and not practical for martial arts training. You are right. Now, can we spend that energy discussing things we learn and are learning and how to improve our respective techniques?

Also, please forgive me if I continue to find value in those old, outdated, useless and impractical kata and forms... its a problem I have.

It goes both ways too. It is not one sided trashing if you read the whole thread. I look at it as a debate and both should show proof. It is through debate that people learn. This is fighting art, don't we all want to win fights? Isn't that the common ultimate goal?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Also, please forgive me if I continue to find value in those old, outdated, useless and impractical kata and forms... its a problem I have.

Do you like to see this the kind of discussion in a MA forum?

A: This is what I think ...
B: Agree with you 100% there.
C: You are absolute right.
D: You have hit the nail on the head.
E: Your words is golden.
F: ...

Or do you like to see this the kind of discussion in a MA forum?

A: I like x because ...
B: I like y because ...
C: I like z because ...
E: ...

IMO, the interested part of the discussion is "because" and not whether it's x, y, or z.

 

[isshinryuronin]

This is fighting art, don't we all want to win fights? Isn't that the common ultimate goal?

All the arts practiced by this forum's participants are indeed, fighting arts; thus, the name, "martial." IMO, this should never be forgotten as we practice sparring, drills and forms. No one will argue that it's better to win a fight than lose - usually less painful.

But whether it is the "ultimate" goal is a matter for further discussion. If one is a competitive sport fighter or likely to be engaged in serious hand-to-hand combat, this is true. Boxing, Krav Maga, Systema and MMA are disciplines well suited for this. Most practitioners, however, do not fit this "elite fighter" category.

TMA, on the other hand, offers a number of other benefits that appeal to many. To be honest, I think pursuing these other benefits comes with some cost to being able to "kick butt". Afterall, there are only so many hours to train. Sure, fighting skill can be the over-riding interest for some in TMA, but for those who choose to spend time pursuing these other benefits (and we each portion these according to our personal priorities), have made a choice.

The choice is this: Do I want to spend time to only train for situations that involve pure combat and may never happen, or do I want to invest some of that time to develop abilities and qualities that can be often used (or at least, enjoyed) throughout my life. Even if the latter of these is chosen, increased practical fighting/self-defense skill will still be developed. It's a matter for each person to decide, based on their own personal interests and goals, what MA can do for them.

MA is a vehicle that can take us to several different places, but never forgetting that martial should be one of the main ones.

 

[mograph]

Are you telling me that you continue to train and practice taiji and wing Chun? You received training of a level of quality and consistency to merit being an instructor of those two methods?

Unfortunately, it's pretty easy to become a tai chi instructor.

I'll just leave that there.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do you like to see this the kind of discussion in a MA forum?

A: This is what I think ...
B: Agree with you 100% there.
C: You are absolute right.
D: You have hit the nail on the head.
E: Your words is golden.
F: ...

Or do you like to see this the kind of discussion in a MA forum?

A: I like x because ...
B: I like y because ...
C: I like z because ...
E: ...

IMO, the interested part of the discussion is "because" and not whether it's x, y, or z.

After all these years I'm still interested in what works for people and how the technique is set up and where it fails.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most practitioners, however, do not fit this "elite fighter" category.

Most people in general don't fit that category. Even thought they train to be the best.

 

[wab25]

It goes both ways too. It is not one sided trashing if you read the whole thread. I look at it as a debate and both should show proof. It is through debate that people learn. This is fighting art, don't we all want to win fights? Isn't that the common ultimate goal?

I missed the post here where sparring and other forms of full resistance training were called outdated, useless and impractical.

Do you like to see this the kind of discussion in a MA forum?

A: This is what I think ...
B: Agree with you 100% there.
C: You are absolute right.
D: You have hit the nail on the head.
E: Your words is golden.
F: ...

Or do you like to see this the kind of discussion in a MA forum?

A: I like x because ...
B: I like y because ...
C: I like z because ...
E: ...

IMO, the interested part of the discussion is "because" and not whether it's x, y, or z.

I like discussions that go along these lines:

person A: I am working on technique A, but having some problems with it.

person B: In sparring, I have found that the key to getting this technique to work against a resisting opponent, is to have a lower center of gravity... stepping in and bending your knees more helps me achieve this.

person C: In our kata, I have found that adding a rotation of your arm here, helps make the transition into the technique a little easier.

person B: I tried adding in that rotation in my sparring and found that it can help break the other guys structure, which helped me take his balance.

Trying to prove that the other guys method of training is wrong, does not get us anywhere. But sharing the insights we find in our own preferred method of training with others, can help us all improve. We might even be able to get some of the things from that other style of training, with out having to try that style at all....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Trying to prove that the other guys method of training is wrong,

Do you think the idea of spending 100% effort to control you opponent's arms, but spend no effort tryinng to control your opponent's legs is correct?

When you see this happen, do you

- suggest that leg control is important, or
- say nothing and remain silence.

For those who has never trained "leg control", they may feel uncomfortable about your opinion. But will you just keep quite because you don't want to upset those people?

If we are afraid to speak up from the bottom of our hearts, why do we even bother to participate the online discussion?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are something that you can learned from sparring that you can't learn from form.

For example.

- You have right side forward. Your opponent has left side forward.
- You throw a right jab at your opponent's face.
- Your opponent uses left arm to block outside in (to your left).
- You change your right jab into a right hook and hit on the left side of his head.

I cannot find this right jab, right hook combo in any of those forms that I have trained.

Here is another one.

- Both you and your opponent have right side forward.
- You throw a right from kick toward your opponent's chest.
- Your opponent steps back his right leg and change side.
- You throw a left roundhouse kick at his chest.

I also can't find this right front kick, left roundhouse kick in any of the forms that I have trained.

 

[Alan0354]

I missed the post here where sparring and other forms of full resistance training were called outdated, useless and impractical.

But I was pretty much told I don't know anything.

 

[Alan0354]

I also can't find this right front kick, left roundhouse kick in any of the forms that I have trained.

We sure practice a lot of that!!!. Don't have to be complicated, say
1)Jab, reverse punch, then front leg round kick to the knee.
2) Back leg front kick to the solarplexius and 1,2 punch to the face when his hands tries to cover the chest.
3) Back leg round kick to the knee, then 1,2 punch to the face.
4) For close up, I do elbows and knees, then even do a judo hip throw. I practice on heavy bag like in my video.
............................

Man!!! I am starting to sound like YOU!!!


I practice a lot of going high, then go low, or go low, then high. I practice in air and also on heavy bag. I really split my practice half and half in air and heavy bag.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We sure practice a lot of that!!!. Don't have to be complicated, say
1)Jab, reverse punch, then front leg round kick to the knee.
2) Back leg front kick to the solarplexius and 1,2 punch to the face when his hands tries to cover the chest.
3) Back leg round kick to the knee, then 1,2 punch to the face.
............................

Man!!! I am starting to sound like YOU!!!

The issue is some MA systems don't even have certain technique. You may learn all the forms in your system, you still won't be able to learn that technique.

For example, I added roundhouse kick into my long fist system because my long fist system doesn't have it.

I assume if I complain about my long fist system, nobody will say anything. It's too bad that we don't have another long fist guy in this forum who can argue with me that the roundhouse kick is hidden in the long fist form.

 

[Xue Sheng]

 

[Alan0354]

The issue is some MA systems don't even have certain technique. You may learn all the forms in your system, you still won't be able to learn that technique.

For example, I added roundhouse kick into my long fist system because my long fist system doesn't have it.

I assume if I complain about my long fist system, nobody will say anything. It's too bad that we don't have another long fist guy in this form who can argue with me that the roundhouse kick is hidden in the long fist form.

I checked Shell Beach, too bad we are so far away. I live in Silicon Valley close to San Jose. Or else we can get together to do some work together. You just have to go easy on me. I only had a few years and I ain't no spring chick either.

 

[Flying Crane]

The issue is some MA systems don't even have certain technique. You may learn all the forms in your system, you still won't be able to learn that technique.

Well no, we have discussed this many times in the past: you know full well that this is nonsense, that the forms do not represent the entirety of a system’s curriculum, but here you are trying to sell it once again.

For example, I added roundhouse kick into my long fist system because my long fist system doesn't have it.

I assume if I complain about my long fist system, nobody will say anything. It's too bad that we don't have another long fist guy in this form who can argue with me that the roundhouse kick is hidden in the long fist form.

It is clear that you received some dismal training. I won’t argue with that.

 

[Flying Crane]

Things they make ya go hmmm…

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It is clear that you received some dismal training. I won’t argue with that.

I just can't believe that even if I just complain my own long fist system, you still have an issue with me.

Please just discuss the subject. Please don't do any personal insult.

How will you feel that if I say, "It's clear that your MA training has some major issues."?

 

[Flying Crane]

I just can't believe that even if I just complain my own long fist system, you still have an issue with me.

Please just discuss the subject. Please don't do any personal insult.

It wasn’t a personal insult. It was merely an observation.