Create a new form that meet those requirements

[Buka]

Can you create a new form that meet the following requirements?

1. Move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ...
2. All basic punches are included.
3. All basic kicks are included.
4. All basic blocks are included.
5. No duplicated technique.
6. Between 16 to 20 moves.

The 1st requirement could be the most challenged. The 5th requirement can also be challenged. Would you like to try to create one and share your creation here?

I created a few Katas over the years so some of my students would have something to do at tournaments while they waited for the Kumite divisions to start.

The idea of creating one now is foreign to me.
I’ve watched Katate change over the last half century. To me, the reason most Karate students, especially ones with less than a couple of years under their belts, can’t fight to save their life is…
(here’s where everyone gets angry)
Because they do too much Kata and not enough hard training. Including, but not limited to, fighting.

 

[Flying Crane]

I created a few Katas over the years so some of my students would have something to do at tournaments while they waited for the Kumite divisions to start.

The idea of creating one now is foreign to me.
I’ve watched Katate change over the last half century. To me, the reason most Karate students, especially ones with less than a couple of years under their belts, can’t fight to save their life is…
(here’s where everyone gets angry)
Because they do too much Kata and not enough hard training. Including, but not limited to, fighting.

In my opinion the problem with kata is that most people treat it as performance art or as a “link” to tradition (whatever that means) or as simple meaningless add-on that they are obligated to do (perform) in order to pass a test and get a new belt of a different color, which they see as the ultimate trophy and validation of their accomplishment. They don’t use kata as the functional training tool that it is meant to be, and most people have no idea how to even go about doing that. Kata is not the only thing that one should do. It is one tool of many that makes up one’s training, IF kata is to be included.

When kata is not well understood or is practiced poorly or is done as performance art, then it is a useless training tool. For most people, I would say this is true. As someone who loves kata and includes it in my training, and sees tremendous value in the practice, I can understand the gripe people have when they feel it is not useful or practical. For most people this is true, it is not useful.

 

[Buka]

In my opinion the problem with kata is that most people treat it as performance art or as a “link” to tradition (whatever that means) or as simple meaningless add-on that they are obligated to do (perform) in order to pass a test and get a new belt of a different color, which they see as the ultimate trophy and validation of their accomplishment. They don’t use kata as the functional training tool that it is meant to be, and most people have no idea how to even go about doing that. Kata is not the only thing that one should do. It is one tool of many that makes up one’s training, IF kata is to be included.

When kata is not well understood or is practiced poorly or is done as performance art, then it is a useless training tool. For most people, I would say this is true. As someone who loves kata and includes it in my training, and sees tremendous value in the practice, I can understand the gripe people have when they feel it is not useful or practical. For most people this is true, it is not useful.

I enjoy Kata a great deal, it’s just not for me.
But having watched it forever, I can make fairly accurate guesses as to wether or not the person practicing it does, or ever will know how, to fight.

In my experience, if someone is sleep walking through their Kata, they’ll sleep walk through their kumite.

 

[isshinryuronin]

But having watched it forever, I can make fairly accurate guesses as to wether or not the person practicing it does, or ever will know how, to fight.

The key is, and I'm guessing you'll agree, to practice drilling and kata as if an opponent is before you. If you don't practice this mindset it won't be there for fighting. Sometimes you practice soft for form and technical execution, but then you have to realize you're doing martial arts. You have to execute like you mean it. It's the only way to develop explosiveness and power. The downside is it's a lot more work. As always, you get out of it what you put into it.

Now, I think a guy can sleepwalk thru kata but still be a good fighter - he may just not understand kata is fighting and a "functional tool" as you said and so cheating himself of some benefit. But his instructor might not understand this either. Though most of the time your assessment is correct.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I’ve watched Katate change over the last half century. To me, the reason most Karate students, especially ones with less than a couple of years under their belts, can’t fight to save their life is…
(here’s where everyone gets angry)
Because they do too much Kata and not enough hard training. Including, but not limited to, fighting.

lol. I was waiting to be furious.

 

[jks9199]

Because they do too much Kata and not enough hard training. Including, but not limited to, fighting.

They don’t use kata as the functional training tool that it is meant to be, and most people have no idea how to even go about doing that. Kata is not the only thing that one should do. It is one tool of many that makes up one’s training, IF kata is to be included.

Both of you are right, in my opinion.

Kata is a tool. Sparring is a tool. Hard training is a tool. And so is soft training.

And people work way too hard to find way too much in kata sometimes...

Forms show us how to combine the techniques and principles of the core techniques. Step this way, move this arm that way, etc. And they often contain time- and battle- tested techniques and strategies, like step off the line and counter-strike back to the line or rise up and DROP down into a punch...

But if you focus on one tool too much, you can't really do much at all, at least not effectively. If they only way you practice to join two boards together is a butt joint, you're constructions will only be so strong... If the only tool you bring is a hammer... I don't want you doing my plumbing! If all you practice is kata or forms, and never move with someone else or step outside the precise repitition of a paired kata, then you'll have a hard time dealing with someone who dares to attack you "wrong." If all you do is hard training, your joints will get even with you. If you only spar, you'll get tough -- but won't really develop much skill rather than merely being tough... It takes the right balance of everything to develop balanced, effective skills.

 

[wab25]

My first sensei had a great saying for to describe how to use the tools....

But first, you need to understand his definitions..... (these are his definitions / interpretations... which may not be "correct" but they get his point across)

Kata: the prescribed series of movements that we practice - what we are calling kata / forms here
Waza: sparring, fighting, randori, self defense situational type drills.... application of the techniques against resistance

His saying: To improve your Waza, do more Kata... to improve your Kata, do more Waza.

When you learn the kata, you first learn the correct way do do the technique. When you try to apply it in Waza, you learn what is important to make it work and what parts you need to work on. You work on those parts in Kata, and then try again in Waza. You find and work on the finer details in Kata, which then make it easier for you to apply in Waza. The idea is that each one feeds and changes the other.

But having watched it forever, I can make fairly accurate guesses as to wether or not the person practicing it does, or ever will know how, to fight.

I believe its that feedback of Waza to Kata and Kata to Waza that you are seeing here. If someone knows how to fight and how to apply these techniques in a fight, it should change how those techniques are done in Kata. (no, not changing the hand positions, or angles, or timing... have to get this in before I get corrected.... the change is in how those positions, angles and timing are achieved.... its the stuff between the poses) If someone is really studying the Kata, they should be bringing those finer points back to their Waza, giving them more options.

Yes, some people can be good fighters and sleep walk their kata.... but as long as you are going to do the Kata, you might as well get something from it.... or find an art without them.

 

[skribs]

Because they do too much Kata and not enough hard training. Including, but not limited to, fighting.

I think there are definite benefits to the practice of forms. Which is why I have created my own.

What I think is a problem is schools like the main one I attended. I needed to learn 13 different forms to get my black belt. Now, students need 21 forms, because my Master was forced to add the 8 Taegeuks into the curriculum, but he didn't want to get rid of the 8 Palgwes.

To go from 1st to 2nd degree, you needed to learn another 4 forms. To go from 2nd to 3rd, you needed another 6. And then from 3rd to 4th, you needed another 6. Including going back and learning the Taegeuks, this was a total of 37 forms.

This is why I made 9.

 

[gyoja]

I think there are definite benefits to the practice of forms. Which is why I have created my own.

What I think is a problem is schools like the main one I attended. I needed to learn 13 different forms to get my black belt. Now, students need 21 forms, because my Master was forced to add the 8 Taegeuks into the curriculum, but he didn't want to get rid of the 8 Palgwes.

To go from 1st to 2nd degree, you needed to learn another 4 forms. To go from 2nd to 3rd, you needed another 6. And then from 3rd to 4th, you needed another 6. Including going back and learning the Taegeuks, this was a total of 37 forms.

This is why I made 9.

We have 10 forms to black belt. I thought we had it rough

 

[skribs]

We have 10 forms to black belt. I thought we had it rough

From polls that I did on Reddit, I think 9-12 forms to get black belt was most common. I think most KKW schools (and I could be mistaken) have a couple of Kibon forms and then have the 8 Taegeuks.

 

[gyoja]

From polls that I did on Reddit, I think 9-12 forms to get black belt was most common. I think most KKW schools (and I could be mistaken) have a couple of Kibon forms and then have the 8 Taegeuks.

We have the 3 ki cho hyungs, the 5 pyung ahn hyungs, bassai, and 1 bong hyung.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think there are definite benefits to the practice of forms. Which is why I have created my own.

What I think is a problem is schools like the main one I attended. I needed to learn 13 different forms to get my black belt. Now, students need 21 forms, because my Master was forced to add the 8 Taegeuks into the curriculum, but he didn't want to get rid of the 8 Palgwes.

To go from 1st to 2nd degree, you needed to learn another 4 forms. To go from 2nd to 3rd, you needed another 6. And then from 3rd to 4th, you needed another 6. Including going back and learning the Taegeuks, this was a total of 37 forms.

This is why I made 9.

The term for that is "cash cow"...

 

[HighKick]

in order to pass a test and get a new belt of a different color, which they see as the ultimate trophy and validation of their accomplishment.

Let's be honest, haven't we all been there at one time or another?
I separate forms and sparring differently. Many of the movements in forms cannot be done in competitive sparring. Therefore, I practice and teach them more as self-defense, along with other types of SD training.
@Buka is 100% correct. Without resistance training including but not limited to hard sparring, learning a martial art is useless beyond the conditioning that usually comes with it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I separate forms and sparring differently. Many of the movements in forms cannot be done in competitive sparring.

I don't think this is really true. Can you give some examples?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Many of the movements in forms cannot be done in competitive sparring.

I don't think this is really true. Can you give some examples?

As an Okinawan stylist, I completely agree with HighKick. If you add up all the grabs and locks/twists/breaks, and kicks to the groin and knees in the kata they easily add up to 50% of the techniques.

 

[skribs]

I don't think this is really true. Can you give some examples?

In WT sparring, many of the techniques from the Taegeuks are not allowed. Many more are not relevant to high-level kick fencing.

• Taegeuk 1-3: Punches are technically allowed, but rarely score points. Many of the blocks would work against a punch, but what are you blocking at that point? Better to set up a kick than play patty-cake with your hands. High blocks might work well against head kicks, but the mid-section blocks you're going to hurt your arm.
• Taegeuk 4: Double knife block against a kick, you're more likely to hurt your arm or fingers. Spearhand not allowed. Chop not allowed. Backfist not allowed.
• Taegeuk 5: Hammerfist not allowed. Backfist not allowed. Elbow strikes not allowed.
• Taegeuk 6: Head punches not allowed. Palm block a kick, you're likely to hurt your hand.
• Taegeuk 7: Scissor block doesn't make sense in this context, because you're not defending a kick and punch from different sides at the same time. Other contexts of the scissor block (i.e. block and backfist or grappling contexts) not allowed. Grabbing the shoulders not allowed. Knee strike not allowed. Uppercuts (even to body) not allowed. Grabbing the head to pull into a kick not allowed.
• Taegeuk 8: Diamond mountain block doesn't make sense in a 1-on-1. Uppercut not allowed. Holding the knee up puts you at risk of penalty.
• Koryo: Side kick to the knee not allowed. Arc strike not allowed. Grabbing the opponent's leg not allowed. Double outside block doesn't make sense in a 1-on-1. Grabbing to pull into a punch not allowed. Groin strike not allowed.
• Keumgang: Palm strike not allowed. Crane stance puts you at risk of penalty. Diamond high block doesn't make sense in a 1-on-1. The step into the double mountain block appears to be a check kick, which is not allowed. Double mountain block doesn't make sense in a 1-on-1. Double low block doesn't make sense in a 1-on-1.

I ignored most of the repeats. For example, mid-section blocks in upper-level forms. But the majority of the forms taught in KKW schools and used in competition in WT tournaments, are not allowed in WT sparring.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think there are definite benefits to the practice of forms. Which is why I have created my own.

What I think is a problem is schools like the main one I attended. I needed to learn 13 different forms to get my black belt. Now, students need 21 forms, because my Master was forced to add the 8 Taegeuks into the curriculum, but he didn't want to get rid of the 8 Palgwes.

To go from 1st to 2nd degree, you needed to learn another 4 forms. To go from 2nd to 3rd, you needed another 6. And then from 3rd to 4th, you needed another 6. Including going back and learning the Taegeuks, this was a total of 37 forms.

This is why I made 9.

In the branch of kenpo that I trained, we had a notoriously large curriculum including what felt like dozens of forms. Requirements for Nidan was an additional 12 forms, in addition to other material. That was when I actually realized I had no desire to learn this stuff.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

In WT sparring, many of the techniques from the Taegeuks are not allowed. Many more are not relevant to high-level kick fencing.

• Taegeuk 1-3: Punches are technically allowed, but rarely score points. Many of the blocks would work against a punch, but what are you blocking at that point? Better to set up a kick than play patty-cake with your hands. High blocks might work well against head kicks, but the mid-section blocks you're going to hurt your arm.
• Taegeuk 4: Double knife block against a kick, you're more likely to hurt your arm or fingers. Spearhand not allowed. Chop not allowed. Backfist not allowed.
• Taegeuk 5: Hammerfist not allowed. Backfist not allowed. Elbow strikes not allowed.
• Taegeuk 6: Head punches not allowed. Palm block a kick, you're likely to hurt your hand.
• Taegeuk 7: Scissor block doesn't make sense in this context, because you're not defending a kick and punch from different sides at the same time. Other contexts of the scissor block (i.e. block and backfist or grappling contexts) not allowed. Grabbing the shoulders not allowed. Knee strike not allowed. Uppercuts (even to body) not allowed. Grabbing the head to pull into a kick not allowed.
• Taegeuk 8: Diamond mountain block doesn't make sense in a 1-on-1. Uppercut not allowed. Holding the knee up puts you at risk of penalty.
• Koryo: Side kick to the knee not allowed. Arc strike not allowed. Grabbing the opponent's leg not allowed. Double outside block doesn't make sense in a 1-on-1. Grabbing to pull into a punch not allowed. Groin strike not allowed.
• Keumgang: Palm strike not allowed. Crane stance puts you at risk of penalty. Diamond high block doesn't make sense in a 1-on-1. The step into the double mountain block appears to be a check kick, which is not allowed. Double mountain block doesn't make sense in a 1-on-1. Double low block doesn't make sense in a 1-on-1.

I ignored most of the repeats. For example, mid-section blocks in upper-level forms. But the majority of the forms taught in KKW schools and used in competition in WT tournaments, are not allowed in WT sparring.

So to clarify, these are not allowed in WT sparring. They're allowed in most forms of sparring outside of WT (kickboxing, muay Thai, MMA).
That's true for your bullets 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, and 8. 5 and 6 are allowed, though I agree don't fit 1 on 1 sparring..but that's not the only format out there.
If that's the case, then the issue is not with KKW forms, it's with the sparring that kkw supports.

 

[skribs]

So to clarify, these are not allowed in WT sparring. They're allowed in most forms of sparring outside of WT (kickboxing, muay Thai, MMA).
That's true for your bullets 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, and 8. 5 and 6 are allowed, though I agree don't fit 1 on 1 sparring..but that's not the only format out there.
If that's the case, then the issue is not with KKW forms, it's with the sparring that kkw supports.

Kickboxing, Muay Thai, and MMA are not "most forms of sparring outside of WT".

At the very least, you have other styles of TKD (ITF, ATA, etc.) that have a competition scene. Then you've got other arts like TKD (i.e. TSD, Chun Kuk Do, various Karate styles) that are all similar to TKD. Most of these styles of sparring will have similar restrictions on allowed techniques and acceptable targets as TKD will.

If you're going to include combat sports, you also have plenty of sports where certain strikes are not allowed (such as boxing) or where strikes aren't allowed at all (wrestling, Judo, BJJ). I also think a lot of what I said applies to kickboxing.

Muay Thai and MMA are about at the furthest end of the spectrum as far as what's allowed in sparring (with something like boxing being at the nearest end). Those are not good examples of the average martial art in this discussion.

Even then, I was specifically comparing what is done in the forms and in the sparring of the same martial art. There isn't a good comparison there for kickboxing, Muay Thai, or MMA, because they don't have forms. If you wanted to do an apples-to-apples comparison, you would need to compare the kata and sparring from the same style of Karate, or something like that. For example, what @isshinryuronin did in post #75.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Kickboxing, Muay Thai, and MMA are not "most forms of sparring outside of WT".

Those were the most mainstream ones i could think of. Boxing, jujitsu, BJJ, kickboxing, combat karate, full contact karate, and more all have their own rules, but most (with the exception of some jj styles) allow punching.

At the very least, you have other styles of TKD (ITF, ATA, etc.) that have a competition scene. Then you've got other arts like TKD (i.e. TSD, Chun Kuk Do, various Karate styles) that are all similar to TKD. Most of these styles of sparring will have similar restrictions on allowed techniques and acceptable targets as TKD will.

My understanding is that most of those styles outside of WT do in fact allow punches, and award them appropriately. That's from people who have participated in them, but I never have, so if I'm misinformed please let me know.

If you're going to include combat sports, you also have plenty of sports where certain strikes are not allowed (such as boxing) or where strikes aren't allowed at all (wrestling, Judo, BJJ). I also think a lot of what I said applies to kickboxing.

Yes. I thought it was obvious we were referring to striking arts. obviously plenty that TKD, karate or kempo forms train would not be allowed in westling.

Muay Thai and MMA are about at the furthest end of the spectrum as far as what's allowed in sparring (with something like boxing being at the nearest end). Those are not good examples of the average martial art in this discussion.

Even then, I was specifically comparing what is done in the forms and in the sparring of the same martial art. There isn't a good comparison there for kickboxing, Muay Thai, or MMA, because they don't have forms. If you wanted to do an apples-to-apples comparison, you would need to compare the kata and sparring from the same style of Karate, or something like that. For example, what @isshinryuronin did in post #75.

I don't really see how if they have forms is relevant. Most of the forms I'm familiar with teach skills that are allowed in MMA, and the techniques that don't (ie: using the eye as a throwing mechanism, or kicking the kneecap) are well known enough that we can discount those.