Create a new form that meet those requirements

[isshinryuronin]

It's really not.

That's good to hear.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Completely wrong! Once again you proclaim things with limited understanding of them.

What's your dan ranking? Because unless you're a judan, I'm going with what I was taught by at least three different kudans (all three of which are kaichos) and my current hachidan instructor. So unless you can produce higher credentials, I suggest that you stop talking out of your other end.

 

[Hot Lunch]

That's good to hear.

Once again, talking out of your other end...

 

[Hot Lunch]

Look at this! On here, and even other Isshin-ryu references, it specifically states that Kusan-ku is designed for eight attackers...

This article was written in 1969 by Isshin-ryu hall of famer, Steve Armstrong.

@isshinryuronin buddy, you've got more important people to challenge than me...

The Story of Tatsuo Shimabuku and The Isshin-Ryu System | USAdojo.com

In developing Isshin-Ryu, Tatsuo Shimabuku combined the best elements of Goju-Ryu and Shorin-Ryu and some Gung-Fu that he had acquired over the years.

www.usadojo.com

 

[isshinryuronin]

Look at this! On here, and even other Isshin-ryu references, it specifically states that Kusan-ku is designed for eight attackers...

This article was written in 1969 by Isshin-ryu hall of famer, Steve Armstrong.

@isshinryuronin buddy, you've got more important people to challenge than me...

The Story of Tatsuo Shimabuku and The Isshin-Ryu System | USAdojo.com

In developing Isshin-Ryu, Tatsuo Shimabuku combined the best elements of Goju-Ryu and Shorin-Ryu and some Gung-Fu that he had acquired over the years.

www.usadojo.com

This is a misconception, like Kusanku was designed for night fighting (though it can be used at night). Traditional karate knowledge has advanced in the past 50 years. Back in '69, the true bunkai of kata was not much known by Westerners. It was often explained, and still is many times, that kata was a simple "dance" of blocks, kicks and punches against multiple opponents. All of this is now debunked.

We now know that much of Okinawan karate entails a lot of grabbing, pulling and taking down and this is reflected in kata. Writings by the masters before and after WWII describe such things (translated and shared after 1980s-90's). Even Sensei Armstrong, who was close to my sensei, and with whom I've spent some time, was taught the basic version of karate by Shimabuku, as were all the Marines in the 50's and 60's. No current senior Okinawan stylist who is worth his salt and understands kata history would dispute the points you are trying to argue about, including Armstrong!

..."often mistakes are made in the interpretation of kata movements...In extreme cases we hear this kata is designed for fighting eight people or some such nonsense." - Kenwa Mabuni 1938

12 Karate Kata Fallacies: (several relate to current/recent threads)

1. You are fighting multiple opponents.
3. First movement is always a block.
4. When you turn, you are facing a new opponent.
8. Kata should begin and end at the same point.

20 Kuden (oral teachings) by Kubota Shozan (student of Funakoshi):
.
11. There is one opponent to the front. Most turns are dragging the opponent.

I assure you, Hot Lunch, all the above is true. Even sensei Armstrong would defer to these authorities. There is more to TMA than you know. It is unwise to skate on thin ice.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Hooks, uppercut, crosses are not considered basics in Jow Ga

You learn different tools from different MA systems.

For example, you may learn

- back spin hook kick from TKD.
- flying side kick from karate.
- flying knee from MT.
- Reverse side kick (knee stomp) from CMA.
- ...

Now your toolbox may have tools from different MA systems. It's your tools now, you don't care where it may come from.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You mean I couldn't link those techniques together until I learned a new form?

The following combo all make logic sense.

-right jab, left cross, right hook, left uppercut, right overhand, right back fist.
- right hook, right back fist, left overhand, right uppercut, left jab, right cross.
- ...

You only need 1 combo to be able to polish all those 6 basic tools in your toolbox.

 

[Hot Lunch]

This is a misconception, like Kusanku was designed for night fighting (though it can be used at night). Traditional karate knowledge has advanced in the past 50 years. Back in '69, the true bunkai of kata was not much known by Westerners. It was often explained, and still is many times, that kata was a simple "dance" of blocks, kicks and punches against multiple opponents. All of this is now debunked. We now know that much of Okinawan karate entails a lot of grabbing, pulling and taking down and this is reflected in kata. Writings by the masters before and after WWII describe such things (translated and shared after 1980s-90's). Even Sensei Armstrong, who was close to my sensei, and with whom I've spent some time, was taught the basic version of karate by Shimabuku, as were all the Marines in the 50's and 60's.

I don't understand the relevance of any of this, or how it refutes what I'm saying.

No current senior Okinawan stylist who is worth his salt and understands kata history would dispute the points you are trying to argue about, including Armstrong!

No arguments here.

..."often mistakes are made in the interpretation of kata movements...In extreme cases we hear this kata is designed for fighting eight people or some such nonsense." - Kenwa Mabuni 1938

As Kousaku Yakota pointed out in several of his works, not all bunkai got lost when Westerners were learning. Much of it also happened in Okinawa and the mainland, where they simply take what they're being taught at face value, as the culture inhibits students from asking their instructors why they are doing a particular movement or how it works.

The tone of that quote by Mabuni is indicative of it being a hot take at the time.

12 Karate Kata Fallacies: (several relate to current/recent threads)

1. You are fighting multiple opponents.
3. First movement is always a block.
4. When you turn, you are facing a new opponent.
8. Kata should begin and end at the same point.

20 Kuden (oral teachings) by Kubota Shozan (student of Funakoshi):
.
11. There is one opponent to the front. Most turns are dragging the opponent.

That's only one student of Funakoshi, where other students of Funakoshi say different (keep reading).

I assure you, Hot Lunch, all the above is true.

According to who? You?

Even sensei Armstrong would defer to these authorities.

If he would defer to Kubota Shozan, then there's no doubt that even greater deference would be given to Masatoshi Nakayama (the most notable among all of Funakoshi's students). Fast forward to 23:50:

There is more to TMA than you know.

Than "we" know, or just me... and you know everything? Uh oh, that's some thin ice! Which you're about to mention below:

It is unwise to skate on thin ice.

With who? You?
I hate to break to you, but you're just another guy on the internet with an opinion.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If he would defer to Kubota Shozan, then there's no doubt that even greater deference would be given to Masatoshi Nakayama (the most notable among all of Funakoshi's students). Fast forward to 23:50:

The video is a mere demonstration of the basic bunkai for that form, like can be seen on dozens of YouTube clips. I teach lower belts in the same fashion. The clip goes no further than that. It is a mistake to conclude from that clip that the full concept of the kata is being shown. And I would say Mabuni is a rather strong authority saying kata is NOT against multiple attackers.

The Okinawan masters usually had two levels of students: Dojo students and personal "home" students that the master taught privately, often in their back yard. It was to this latter group that the depths of the art were taught. American servicemen, such as Armstrong, were simply dojo students. They didn't know at the time there was another level beyond block, kick, punch. No fault of theirs. Just the way it was at the time.

In around 1930 (I once knew the exact date) the leading Okinawan masters such as Chibana, Miyagi, Mabuni (who became creators of 3 of the main styles) and Hanashiro met and agreed in the "Okinawan Karate Kenkyukai Pact" to hold back the true "hidden" bunkai from Japan. This, plus the sportification and mass regimented teaching in Japan led to the partial loss of that bunkai in that country as I hinted in my original post on this topic.

I don't understand the relevance of any of this,

Since you used Steve Armstrong as a source to refute that kata was not designed for multiple opponents, I explained that Sensei Armstrong was taught as mentioned in the above quote response. I'm not sure how much hidden bunkai he discovered after 1969.

BTW, Uechi Sensei is the Okinawan Prefecture's recognized current Master of isshinryu. I was a private "home" student of his personal representative in the USA for three intensive years. While there is still much to learn, I have been fortunate to have been given a greater understanding of my system than most. I began my isshinryu training in 1966, thinking as you do, that kata was just block, kick, punch against multiple attackers, and only later on got educated in true Okinawan karate.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss several important points of karate and kata history and evolution.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Look at this! On here, and even other Isshin-ryu references, it specifically states that Kusan-ku is designed for eight attackers...

This article was written in 1969 by Isshin-ryu hall of famer, Steve Armstrong.

@isshinryuronin buddy, you've got more important people to challenge than me...

The Story of Tatsuo Shimabuku and The Isshin-Ryu System | USAdojo.com

In developing Isshin-Ryu, Tatsuo Shimabuku combined the best elements of Goju-Ryu and Shorin-Ryu and some Gung-Fu that he had acquired over the years.

www.usadojo.com

I just noticed that this article has a photo (at the bottom) showing my first sensei, mentor and good (and oldest) friend for close to 20 years, Bob Ozman (I believe he helped write this article). He was a major influence and role model in my life. RIP, Sensei.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Once again, talking out of your other end...

So, I guess you disagree with him saying that's good to hear?????

A confusing response, this.

 

[Hot Lunch]

So, I guess you disagree with him saying that's good to hear?????

A confusing response, this.

No. In his first response to me, he decided to come at me with no tact. And then Dirty Dog called him on something. But with tact. I decided to piggyback on Dirty Dog said, but with that same lack of tact that issinryuronin showed me.

 

[Flying Crane]

The video is a mere demonstration of the basic bunkai for that form, like can be seen on dozens of YouTube clips. I teach lower belts in the same fashion. The clip goes no further than that. It is a mistake to conclude from that clip that the full concept of the kata is being shown. And I would say Mabuni is a rather strong authority saying kata is NOT against multiple attackers.

Wait a minute here…what are you saying? That just because something can’t be found on YouTube, does not mean it doesn’t exist???

You are turning my reality on its head, sir…

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What's basic striking in Wing Chun is not basic striking in Hung Ga or Tai chi. If I were to teach you basic Jow Ga only the jab would be included. Hooks, uppercut, crosses are not considered basics in Jow Ga

Does that mean the day when you start to train WC, the day you should stop using circular punches? Taiji doesn't have overhand, do you not allow to use it because you train Taiji?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Does that mean the day when you start to train WC, the day you should stop using circular punches?

I would only need to stop using my Jow Ga punches in the WC class. Outside of class I can train both my Jow Ga and my WC. The reason I say this is because I cannot learn WC if I'm using Jow Ga. So during class I would need to stop using Jow Ga. In my personal training outside of class, I can use both depending on what I want to train. If I want to focus more on WC then I would simply use more WC. But overall, I would still train Jow Ga. There's no need for me to forget what I already learned.

Taiji doesn't have overhand, do you not allow to use it because you train Taiji?

When I train Taiji, I only train Taiji. If I do Jow Ga then it means I'm not doing Taiji. Even if I were to do both in sparring, I still could not do them at the same time unless I blend them. If I blend Jow Ga and TaiJi then I'm no longer doing either. At that point, I would be doing a hybrid.

Hung Ga, + Choy Ga + Northern Shaolin when used together at the same time creates a hybrid (Jow Ga).

The name “Hung Tao Choy Mei” was given to this style because it blended the best of both worlds: powerful upper body techniques from Hung Ga and agile footwork from Choy Ga.

If I want to Mandarin then I must only use Mandarin. I cannot blend Spanish and claim that I'm learning Mandarin. The moment I blend is the moment I create a hybrid.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No. In his first response to me, he decided to come at me with no tact. And then Dirty Dog called him on something. But with tact. I decided to piggyback on Dirty Dog said, but with that same lack of tact that issinryuronin showed me.

That doesn't even make sense. Not even a little.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would only need to stop using my Jow Ga punches in the WC class. Outside of class I can train both my Jow Ga and my WC.

In one of my 2 men forms, there is a combo as:

- right jab,
- left cross,
- right hook,
- left hook.

After I had learned that, I always believe the striking art should be 3 dimensional and not just linear.

- A left cross can set up a right hook (linear set up circular).
- A left uppercut can set up a right jab (circular set up linear).

 

[skribs]

I disagree. Beginner stuff should be the foundational core of what they want to do. Until they start do get the foundational core... they will never become anything other than a beginner.

...

If you never learn the core foundation of the martial art you want to study.... you will never learn the art and never be anything but a beginner. Beginning stuff should be the core foundation of the art. It should be the stuff that makes the art work.

Typically the core foundation is high percentage stuff and/or building blocks for more complicated techniques. These tend to be easier to do and easier to use than the advanced techniques, which are usually niche and/or more complicated.

There is no rule that says you cannot punch twice or more at the end.

If you do this in class, you're told you're doing the form wrong. If you do this in testing, you have to redo the form. If you do this in competition, you'll fail. This statement is wrong in every case I can see the form being used.

All the Taegueks end with an offensive movement. Have you noticed that the first five Yudanja Poomsae end with an offensive movement and the last four end with a defensive movement?

Highest one I learned was Sipjin. The forms all end in a strike. But not all of the lines do. Taegeuks 2, 3, 4, 6, & 7 all have lines that end in blocks.

I see value in that, but have you considered you could be wrong?

In this case, it's literally impossible.

 

[wab25]

Typically the core foundation is high percentage stuff and/or building blocks for more complicated techniques. These tend to be easier to do and easier to use than the advanced techniques, which are usually niche and/or more complicated.

That may be your experience, but it certainly has not been my experience....

The core foundation of Danzan Ryu is the first Kata, Katate Hazushi Ichi: escape from outside wrist grab. Sure, it works so high percentage??? But no one is going to grab your wrist and wait while you do steps of the technique. The core principles and ideas that it teaches you, can be found in every single technique and variation that we do... but not many of those have you stepping off to the side and looking at your watch.

The core of Shotokan is the stance work. Sure easy... except that in shotokan, the stances are wider and lower, and you need to keep your head level (no sin wave up and down) when you move. Easy to do badly and check the box that you did it, hard to actually do correctly. High percentage??? You can go to any martial arts forum, this one included, and find endless threads about how those shotokan stances never show up in the octagon or in street fights... however, they are still very good for teaching the core of shotokan.

Even when I watch people in MMA, who have a TKD background, I never see them using techniques from the first forms that a TKD student learns. Are they not high percentage techniques that are easy to use???

 

[HighKick]

Typically the core foundation is high percentage stuff and/or building blocks for more complicated techniques. These tend to be easier to do and easier to use than the advanced techniques, which are usually niche and/or more complicated.

If you do this in class, you're told you're doing the form wrong. If you do this in testing, you have to redo the form. If you do this in competition, you'll fail. This statement is wrong in every case I can see the form being used.

Highest one I learned was Sipjin. The forms all end in a strike. But not all of the lines do. Taegeuks 2, 3, 4, 6, & 7 all have lines that end in blocks.

In this case, it's literally impossible.

In an open tournament, there is no 'wrong' form/poomsae/hyungs, just bad technique. I cannot tell you how many times I have judged forms I did not know. You said you are making our own forms, therefore aren't you making the rules as you go?
Why would ending in an offensive move (even double) be wrong? Please expand on your statement.