Create a new form that meet those requirements

[isshinryuronin]

need to compare the kata and sparring from the same style

If you add up all the grabs and locks/twists/breaks, and kicks to the groin and knees in the kata they easily add up to 50% of the techniques

In addition to these, there are other moves that may not be allowed in today's tournaments that I didn't think to mention such as heel palm, knife hand and elbows. Possibly sweeps and takedowns and other moves skribs listed. Depends on the tournament rules.

The main point is that TMA was not designed for sport, but as self-defense. These two things are different in purpose and goals. As such, the preferred techniques for each will be different, as will be the strategy and tactics and even training methods.

Certainly, there is some overlap, but the overriding purpose and goals are often not compatible with each other. This is why when people comment on kata not being realistic or practical, they are mostly correct - if they view it from a competitive standpoint. Kata (and classic TMA in general) is effective for general self-defense and sport style karate is effective for tournaments. It is hard to discuss the two in the same conversation if we don't acknowledge this. We're talking apples and oranges. Both round fruits, but different in color, acidity, and taste. Apples helped Newton discover the law of gravity and oranges......well, they go well with breakfast.

 

[gyoja]

My understanding is that most of those styles outside of WT do in fact allow punches, and award them appropriately. That's from people who have participated in them, but I never have, so if I'm misinformed please let me know.

I have competed in a lot of TSD invitationals and various open tournaments. Punches are allowed and are scored equally with kicks. Basic and intermediate competitors will generally have more restrictions on strike zones than advanced and black belt competitors.

 

[Buka]

I competed in some TSD tournaments a long time ago. I was a guest of a guy who had a dozen TSD schools in New England.

In some of the tournaments it was one point for a punch, two points for a kick and three points for a jump kick if your base leg was higher than the opponents belt line.

Even stranger, at least to me, you couldn’t wear anything other than a gi and a cup. No shin pads, no knee brace, no nothing.

But it was still kind of fun.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I separate forms and sparring differently. Many of the movements in forms cannot be done in competitive sparring.

I do the same but for different reasons. I think for most systems the movement in forms are similar to the movement in fighting. Competition is a little different because the rules have a considerable influence in the type of movement that will be used.

In practical use the movements will be similar. Kata/forms teach one thing and sparring teaches another. Kata teaches what movements to use. Sparring teaches how to use those movements. Kata is "perfect movement." "Uninterrupted movement." It's the clearest example of the movement. Sparring is "application movement informed by kata movement."

The similarity in those movements will depend on how the kata is done. Slow versus fast. Relaxed vs rigid. Jow Ga forms contain fighting combinations so most of the movement translates directly into fighting combos.

The way that I teach is that I add missing footwork pieces. I'm big on footwork and I believe it's better to make the application footwork the habit and the forms presentation footwork the learned. In other words, I would rather learn how to make my fighting application look pretty in forms instead of learning how to make my pretty forms to be effective in fighting application.

It's easier for me to intentionally leave key stuff out than for me to try to add key stuff in after learning a form that intentionally left it out.

 

[HighKick]

I don't think this is really true. Can you give some examples?

Attacks like a spear-hand for example. A combo movement like the block/uppercut in Pinon 2. Down block/outside block like Pinon 3. Hammerfist and elbow strike and elbow smash in Taeguek 5. The return/ready or slow outside blocks in the middle of Taeguek 6. The backfists, knee smash, in Taeguek 7. High/low block, the silly slow uppercut (we do Not do that), and elbow in Taeguek 8.

That's just off the top of my head for the Pinon's and Taegueks. I can make a similar list for the Palgwe's and don't even get me started with the Yudanja Poomsae.

Breaks, wrist-locks, two-person blocks/attacks, "breaking out" movements like the first move of Bassai, Deep stances (done for building strength & balance) are typically not done when sparring but good to have in the tool bag.

Conversely, a form kick (of any variety), can and are used in sparring, but there are also So many variations of the same kicked used, it makes an argument that they do not overlap.

 

[gyoja]

I competed in some TSD tournaments a long time ago. I was a guest of a guy who had a dozen TSD schools in New England.

In some of the tournaments it was one point for a punch, two points for a kick and three points for a jump kick if your base leg was higher than the opponents belt line.

Even stranger, at least to me, you couldn’t wear anything other than a gi and a cup. No shin pads, no knee brace, no nothing.

But it was still kind of fun.

It depends on the school. It seems like that school was following the TKD rules.

 

[Dirty Dog]

As an Okinawan stylist, I completely agree with HighKick. If you add up all the grabs and locks/twists/breaks, and kicks to the groin and knees in the kata they easily add up to 50% of the techniques.

In WT sparring, many of the techniques from the Taegeuks are not allowed. Many more are not relevant to high-level kick fencing.

Ahhh, so you're reading what they wrote as "are not allowed" rather than "cannot be done". Because they certainly can be done.. And for the most part, safely. There are very, very few techniques that CANNOT be done in sparring.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Attacks like a spear-hand for example. A combo movement like the block/uppercut in Pinon 2. Down block/outside block like Pinon 3. Hammerfist and elbow strike and elbow smash in Taeguek 5. The return/ready or slow outside blocks in the middle of Taeguek 6. The backfists, knee smash, in Taeguek 7. High/low block, the silly slow uppercut (we do Not do that), and elbow in Taeguek 8.

That's just off the top of my head for the Pinon's and Taegueks. I can make a similar list for the Palgwe's and don't even get me started with the Yudanja Poomsae.

Breaks, wrist-locks, two-person blocks/attacks, "breaking out" movements like the first move of Bassai, Deep stances (done for building strength & balance) are typically not done when sparring but good to have in the tool bag.

Conversely, a form kick (of any variety), can and are used in sparring, but there are also So many variations of the same kicked used, it makes an argument that they do not overlap.

All of which can be done while sparring.

 

[skribs]

Ahhh, so you're reading what they wrote as "are not allowed" rather than "cannot be done". Because they certainly can be done.. And for the most part, safely. There are very, very few techniques that CANNOT be done in sparring.

If you want to blur the lines between "not allowed" and "cannot be done", there are some absolutely reprehensible things you would be condoning. This was a really, really bad way to try and weasel out of a lost argument.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you want to blur the lines between "not allowed" and "cannot be done", there are some absolutely reprehensible things you would be condoning. This was a really, really bad way to try and weasel out of a lost argument.

Maybe someday you'll grow up enough to understand that not everything is something to be won or lost.

 

[skribs]

Maybe someday you'll grow up enough to understand that not everything is something to be won or lost.

Who said it was? But typical Dirty Dog tactics: make a bold statement, get proven wrong, then pull the "I'm older and wiser" card.

I predicted that you would make some sort of character attack when I made my last post. You leave me disappointed that I'm not surprised.

 

[HighKick]

All of which can be done while sparring.

Not in rules bound competition.

I do get your "allowed" versus "can be done" argument. But it is a really dxxk move to knowingly break the rules in a rules-bound, competition environment. Yes, it is done all the time and sadly some coaches use it as tournament strategy.

When trying to discourage certain techniques while sparring, I always use the analogy of trying to spear-hand someone in the Solar Plexus while wearing a hogu. Not the smartest move.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not in rules bound competition.

Combat is your goal. Sport is your path.

Your training doesn't have to use in sport.

 

[Glaeken]

The main point is that TMA was not designed for sport, but as self-defense. These two things are different in purpose and goals.

This is not true.

The oldest martial arts on record were all sports. Some still are, because they are effective regardless of era.

The whole sport -street duality is a lie.

And Galileo dropped the orange, apocryphal.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ahhh, so you're reading what they wrote as "are not allowed" rather than "cannot be done". Because they certainly can be done.. And for the most part, safely. There are very, very few techniques that CANNOT be done in sparring.

I think people confuse doing a technique as following through a technique. For example, if I practice eye strikes then zi I don't follow through. I only care about the entry and from there I determine if I could have followed through if I wanted to.
I'm honest enough with my ability to know if a strike would have landed and how much force I could have landed. Training this way means that I can still train a technique in sparring.

If I find myself pulling power or redirecting strikes so that my training partner doesn't injured then there is a good chance that I could have landed the strike at will. If my training partner is able to block my strike without me pulling power or redirecting then there is a hood chance that my strike would not land.

This is where control and honesty come into play.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you want to blur the lines between "not allowed" and "cannot be done", there are some absolutely reprehensible things you would be condoning. This was a really, really bad way to try and weasel out of a lost argument.

A lot of the things you say can't be done in sparring, are things I have done in sparring. It just takes a lot of control and you and your sparring partner have to be honest about strikes that would have landed if it wasn't for the kindness and care of your sparring partner. I have had people do knee break techniques on me when my stance was bad. They went through 90% of the technique but didn't follow though with it. So a kick to my knee lands but it doesn't land with power nor does it follow through. If you are able to do 90% of a technique then there is a reliable chance that you could have done the remaining 10% if you desired.

If I do an eye strike technique and your are staring at my finger tips tips, then there is a reliable chance the a more agressive shuffle or extension of my arm would be all that's needed to make contact.

You can only spar like this when the goal isn't to win.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Combat is your goal. Sport is your path.

Your training doesn't have to use in sport.

This is a good example of how to practice the head stomp in sparring. There's no need to follow through. If you throw your opponent in sparring and he is in this position by the time you raise your knee, then there is a reliable chance that you can stomp that person"s head.

 

[gyoja]

This is a good example of how to practice the head stomp in sparring. There's no need to follow through. If you throw your opponent in sparring and he is in this position by the time you raise your knee, then there is a reliable chance that you can stomp that person"s head.

This is how we conduct Il Soo Sik Dae Ryun (one-step sparring). We get to practice the technique without following through so as not to injure our partner.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not in rules bound competition.

I do get your "allowed" versus "can be done" argument. But it is a really dxxk move to knowingly break the rules in a rules-bound, competition environment. Yes, it is done all the time and sadly some coaches use it as tournament strategy.

When trying to discourage certain techniques while sparring, I always use the analogy of trying to spear-hand someone in the Solar Plexus while wearing a hogu. Not the smartest move.

I didn't advocate breaking the rules. When I see "cannot" I read it as 'can't be done safely', and that's not true of the vast majority of our arts.
I do think the KKW/WT sparring ruleset is ridiculous.