"Common" Moves Not Found in Forms

[Yanli]

Repetition is what martial arts is all about. These should be about repeating the basic motions, to make them better. See _Simon_'s post above. If these repetitions are done right... they should be adding variety, as _Simon_ says... not reducing it. If the kata is reducing variety, they are either very poor kata or the people doing them do not understand them.


Then the instructors should slow them down, so they learn to do better imitations. Who is giving them the idea that more and faster is better than doing them properly?


This depends on how the school / organization / instructors grade the tests. Every instructor, every school and every organization handles this differently. It does say a lot about them, when you see how they handle these situations.


Then they are not martial artists. A martial artist practices what he has learned... over and over and over... for the sake of getting better at it. The joy of being a martial artist is in the training... and repetition is is the training. Its not a matter of how many things you know, or even how well you can do them.... its how much do you enjoy the training and the repetition.... that makes you a martial artist.

(NOTE: being a fighter is a whole other can of worms....)

Keep in mind that once you have memorized the moves, you need to physically comprehend the moves, once you have done that, you can then quickly/instinctively perform the moves. Many times students will spend all their time memorizing the moves, but not learning to physically comprehend the moves, once you have comprehended the moves, you do not need to memorize them, they will just come naturally.

 

[Olde Phart]

I have been reading with interest this thread. A phrase keeps popping up that seems to be the primary impetus behind whether or not a kick, or other form of attack, is worthy of practicing or as to why they aren't presented much in the MA styles of today: vulnerability. Primarily referring to the use of such a move and it leaving yourself open to the attack of another. Granted, just about any kind of kick leaves you in a vulnerable position if you miss; the inertia of the missed attack might send you into an off-balanced position or, at the very least, leave your back open to attack. But, could it be that these moves really don't leave the user in too much of a vulnerable position . . . if applied at the right time and in the right manner. Maybe, just maybe, these moves are worthy of practice so that they are available . . . at the right time and in the right manner. Just a thought.

 

[Flying Crane]

I still train Taiji form so I won't forget it. I like Taiji concept the end of the current move is the beginning of the next move. I did integrate that principle into my long fist training.

I use WC centerline principle to develope my "rhino guard" and "Chinese zombie guard" principles.

I did try to integrate WC into long fist but I found it's impossible. May be others can do that integration task. It's just too hard for me.

Can you see the WC centerline principle used in these clips? Both of my primary arts long fist and Chinese wrestling have no such centerline strategy.

Then maybe you have gotten out of them what you will, and it’s time to just move on. It sounds to me like taiji and wing Chun are sources of frustration for you. You probably aren’t ever going to get answers that satisfy you. You don’t have any obligation to train them. You are better off training other methods that speak to you better. It just seems like coming here to endlessly complain about taiji and wing Chun has become something of a hobby. Maybe it’s time to find a more productive hobby.

 

[OutcastSix]

I've taken Taekwondo, and I notice the same thing regarding kicks. In the Kukkiwon Taekwondo style (which has arguably the most kick-heavy sparring of the various Taekwondo styles), there is a dearth of kicks. The official forms are 8 Taegeuks before black belt, followed by Koryo, Keumgang, Taebaek, and Pyongwon for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Dans to get their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th Dan respectively. Here are the kicks in those forms:

• Front Kick: Pervasive throughout the forms; only Keumgang does not have front kicks (and that form has 0 kicks). There are also jumping double front kicks in Taegeuk 8.
• Roundhouse Kick: There are 2x roundhouse kicks in Taegeuk 6
• Side Kick: Fairly common; 2x in Taegeuk 4, 2x in Taegeuk 5, regular and double (low-high) side kicks in Koryo, and 2x in Pyongwon
• Axe Kick: None
• Back Kick: 2x in Pyongwon (no back kicks until 4th degree)
• Crescent Kick: 2x in Taegeuk 7 (these use your hand as a target and strike with the ridge of your foot, my master says that in sparring or breaking you should use the sole of your foot)
• Spinning Hook or Tornado Kick: None
• Twist Kick: None

However, my belief is that Taekwondo is basically 3 arts in 1. I could claim to teach "Kukkiwon Taekwondo forms class", "World Taekwondo sparring class" and "Hapkido self-defense class", and people would probably believe that these are three different styles. I believe Karate tries to bridge that gap better than Taekwondo does. Based on your posting this thread, sounds like it has mixed results.

Skribs,

You left out the two (2) side kicks out from Taebaek… Good thing you mentioned the near omnipresent front kick in all forms minus Koryo, as there are four (4) front kicks in TaeBaek too.

Yours In Martial Arts,
Outcast6!

 

[Alan0354]

Age doesn't have anything to do with it, it's difficult for everyone. I can say this with certainty as I've taught young and old and it's just difficult period. I keep all of my training movement to 1 minute rounds. When it gets easy at 1 minute then I have the option to:
1. Increase the intensity = move faster
2. Add weight = move at the same normal speed or at a slower, but only for 1 minute. That 1 minutes helps me to manage my joint wear and besides most people can't last beyond a minute in a fight. Most people get tired at 30 seconds, so if I can get a good intensity for a minute without being gassed then I'm much better off than the person who can barely breath after 30 seconds.
3. Take shorter breaks between rounds. My normal break is for 16 seconds. If it gets easier then I can cut that break into 8 seconds

The most important thing no matter the age is footwork. It becomes even more important as we get older. We have already seen "kung fu masters" with very bad footwork stumble everywhere. Slow footwork is better than no foot work.

My kung fu learning experience is often like this. My eyes know what they see, but my brain can't figure it out. Trying to get the brain to get the body to do what the eyes see.

Fun Fact.
Those small short steps that Tyson is doing are the same thing that Jow Ga teaches. Either when going forward or backwards the steps are always short. I only need to move out of the range of a strike or take down. If I move back too far too fast then my opponent will chase me. I don't want my opponent to chase me when I'm moving backwards because he will always be faster moving forward than I am moving backwards. By keeping the steps short, I won't trigger that chase. I also don't want to move forward too fast because that will trigger a "flee reaction" I don't want my opponent to flee. I want to alert him to my forward movement. The short movement in Jow Ga are known as rat movements or characteristics of rats because of the short quick steps.

I don't dare to try short burst high intensity like you said, I am very contend that I come back so far from my back problem. I am just doing like what I showed in the video punching and kicking combination in medium intensity and do it for 7 1/2min rounds. I don't want to push and make my back flare up and I have to stop all together. Just slowly increase the intensity. I am just very thankful through my weight training that I actually come back so far.

Since the tape, I see what I need to improve. I don't punch 6 or 7 continuous punches, that's too slow. I work on 2 to maximum 3 punches and speed it up. Working more using body to throw punches. Also I am starting slow on front kick. I try to speed up the attack, then pause a little before another attack instead of a continuous back and fore in the video. I just concentrate on a quicker and shorter attack. If my back can keep up, I would try to add more intensity. But at this point, I am just happy that I survive 7 hours/week training.

Speaking of weight training. I did the weight doing like what I do on the bicep using elastic bands and hold 8 sec at the peak on other exercises like pull down. It's exhausting. Before, I only did with bicep, so after 11mins, it's over. It's not that bad. Now, I do others like that, it's hard after a while.

I also do concentration curl, but slower motion. I do until failure and hold the weight in middle of the rep for like 8 sec. That really burns. On the 4th set, I have to lower to 25lbs only and still burn!!! I better see some result, this is taxing.

 

[skribs]

Skribs,

You left out the two (2) side kicks out from Taebaek… Good thing you mentioned the near omnipresent front kick in all forms minus Koryo, as there are four (4) front kicks in TaeBaek too.

Yours In Martial Arts,
Outcast6!

You're right, good catch!

Doesn't change my overall point, though, that aside from front kicks and a handful of side kicks, there aren't many kicks in forms. And those kicks (front and side) are arguably the least used in WT sparring.

 

[Star Dragon]

My understanding (47 years ago) of Kenpo "sets" is that they're basically a very short form, but more specialized in purpose. "Hand Set" is done, sometimes stationary, and consists completely of open hand strikes; fingers to eyes and throat, and palm heels to other parts of the body.

Well, there's no set with exactly that name in Parker Kenpo, but in principle, your understanding is correct.

"Dance of Death" is strictly foot attacks against a downed opponent; stomps and kicks as you jump around and atop his body.

"Dance of Death" actually doesn't belong to the sets, but to the "techniques" (whose equivalents in other martial arts might be called "self-defence combinations"). It starts out with hand moves, followed by a takedown - after which indeed mostly kicks and stomps are being used to make sure that your downed opponent stays that way. Strictly speaking, that latter part is just the technique's "extension", but it coined the name of the combination overall.

Star Dragon is correct that forms are more mobile and versatile, sets being more focused on a specific type of technique and more like a long drill sequence.*

*(There may be a more current meaning as my Kenpo experience was a long time ago and various versions and lineages have evolved since then.)

Your explanation still holds true today.

The earth being round was also thought to be bull. I hear there are still some who think it's flat. (I deleted the rest of this response as it would be wasted on deaf ears, and although quite clever, would not be looked upon favorably by our esteemed and respected moderators.)

Admittedly, this is going off on a tangent, but the one thing I like about the Flat Earth theory is the new explanation it offers for the extinction of the dinosaurs.

 

[Olde Phart]

Hmmm. Interesting comparison of kicks in forms. I've been taking Kyuki-do (The way or art of striking with energy), which is a form introduced into the US back in the '60s from a Korean fellow that came to the states, eventually forming the American Kyuki-do Federation in 1979. We seem to have a lot of kicks in the forms as compared to some of the others mentioned here. From White to Black:

Kibon - front snap
Kicho - front snap
Kyuki il Chang - roundhouse; step-behind side thrust
Kyuki yee Chang - the only form with no kicks
Kyuki sam Chang - inside-to-outside crescent; roundhouse; spinning side thrust; kneeling side thrust
Guen Bon - front snap; step-behind side thrust
Chon ji in il Chang - step-behind side thrust; roundhouse
Chon ji in yee Chang - roundhouse; side thrust (no step)
Chon ji in sam Chang - side thrust (no step); roundhouse+spinning hook kick combo; front snap
Man Nam - (bo form) jumping front snap
Ka Chi - roundhouse; hook kick+side kick combo; drop spinning hook kick; side thrust; kneeling roundhouse
Sa Rang - side thrust+tornado combo; outside-to-inside crescent; front snap

Most of the forms duplicate the actions on the left side and right side, so there are usually 2 of everything.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Granted, just about any kind of kick leaves you in a vulnerable position if you miss;

Agree! It's always a bad news when your leg meets on your opponent's elbow joint. How to prevent that from happening? It can be another interested subject.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have been reading with interest this thread. A phrase keeps popping up that seems to be the primary impetus behind whether or not a kick, or other form of attack, is worthy of practicing or as to why they aren't presented much in the MA styles of today: vulnerability. Primarily referring to the use of such a move and it leaving yourself open to the attack of another. Granted, just about any kind of kick leaves you in a vulnerable position if you miss; the inertia of the missed attack might send you into an off-balanced position or, at the very least, leave your back open to attack. But, could it be that these moves really don't leave the user in too much of a vulnerable position . . . if applied at the right time and in the right manner. Maybe, just maybe, these moves are worthy of practice so that they are available . . . at the right time and in the right manner. Just a thought.

Every movement creates some vulnerabilities and removes some vulnerabilities. The trick is to predict which ones your opponent is about to create, or induce them to create the ones you want. And then take advantage of them. While simultaneously not allowing them to guess what vulnerabilities you're going to create or allowing them to induce you to create the ones they want.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

just about any kind of kick leaves you in a vulnerable position if you miss;

This is why you need to think ahead.

When you throw a kick at your opponent's chest, The following situations may happen.

Your opponent blocks your kick and

1. spin your leg to your right.
2. spin your leg to your left.
3. pull your leg downward.
4. lift your leg upward.
5. ...

You need to have counters against all those situations. IMO, case 4 is the harderst one to counter.

 

[Star Dragon]

I dislike the idea that something already exists "hidden within the forms". If it's hidden from current students, it's lost to the system. Trying to rediscover it within the forms is far less useful than looking for methods in use in other systems that would work within the movement patterns already in use.

Why go shopping for something you already have at home?

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with blended systems, but restoring and thereby upgrading an existing one is just as cool. In fact, the two approaches go hand in hand, as cross training in other systems will help you more than anything else to recognize what is actually already there in your mother art.

All traditional forms (that I am aware of, anyway) require a degree of interpretation, like it or not. If there are applications "hidden" within them, this is generally not to tuck information away from unauthorized folks (even though there may be that aspect too in certain cases). The principal reason is that traditional forms are compactified and holistic vehicles of knowledge in which each movement is designed to have multiple applications. But only extended study will reveal "all" of those.

Therefore, taking traditional forms at face value renders them sadly insignificant, for the most part. Ignorance of the depth they contain is probably the main reason why so contemporary martial artists consider them unapplicable and obsolete today.

Again, there is essentially nothing wrong with blending and extending the known in keeping with its natural evolution. But does a new hybrid style thus devised reach the great depth of the arts that it originated from? In many cases, this is rather questionable.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Well, there's no set with exactly that name in Parker Kenpo

I found the form on Youtube, under the name of "Finger Set l" rather than my mis-remembered "Hand Set." A half century will do that. The form shown was still just as I learned it.

As for the "Dance of Death," it was taught to me as a separate entity and not just as another technique with extensions. At the time, it was not in the technique curriculum for belts below brown. This is why I considered it more of an advanced set. Its exact belt level and classification was not specifically conveyed to me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why go shopping for something you already have at home?

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with blended systems, but restoring and thereby upgrading an existing one is just as cool. In fact, the two approaches go hand in hand, as cross training in other systems will help you more than anything else to recognize what is actually already there in your mother art.

All traditional forms (that I am aware of, anyway) require a degree of interpretation, like it or not. If there are applications "hidden" within them, this is generally not to tuck information away from unauthorized folks (even though there may be that aspect too in certain cases). The principal reason is that traditional forms are compactified and holistic vehicles of knowledge in which each movement is designed to have multiple applications. But only extended study will reveal "all" of those.

Therefore, taking traditional forms at face value renders them sadly insignificant, for the most part. Ignorance of the depth they contain is probably the main reason why so contemporary martial artists consider them unapplicable and obsolete today.

Again, there is essentially nothing wrong with blending and extending the known in keeping with its natural evolution. But does a new hybrid style thus devised reach the great depth of the arts that it originated from? In many cases, this is rather questionable.

If it’s hidden(not taught from the form), then I think trying to “find” it in there is not fruitful. You don’t have it “at home”.

 

[Alan0354]

If they didn't understand, then I believe they weren't actively trying to use what they they train in sparring against other fighting systems. As someone who has done this, I just can't see how how they could train application in that manner and still not understand. There are some universal truths that people learn through sparring. It doesn't matter which system they train. If they spar, or compete against other systems then there's no way that they can't understand. That's like knowing how to swim but not knowing how to hold your breath. Can you really swim without experiencing holding your breath?


I am defending the low stance as I have been able to use it in sparring against people who train in other systems. I'm not defending it from the perspective of "This is what my teacher has told me." I'm defending it based on the success I've had with it AND on the failures that I've had with it. Knowing the limitations of a stance is just as important as knowing how to use it.


You should look up Isometic Squat and Static Squat. Also look at how isometric exercises help. Here's another view.

This is will sound familiar to many martial artist who do forms that require quick up and down movements.


Here's another video you should watch. Keep in mind that a static horse stance Is an Isometric Exercise.. I hope these videos will clear some things up for you. Pretty much what I've been saying forever. We'll not forever, but through my experience of doing the horse stance.

See something familiar? This is from a video I shared a few years back. I do static and dynamic training using weights. This is me 30lbs over weight so in reality I really don't need the weights. Except for that fact that my legs are really strong, but most importantly the tendons and ligaments in my legs are thicker than most people so I'm able to withstand the dynamic movement. When I teach martial arts Step 1 = Static Horsestance . Students have to build up the tendons and ligaments first and it's going to not only take a while, but it's going to be an on going process. After 6 months of dedication then a light weight 2 - 5 pounds can be used to with dynamic movement training. This is how I train my Kung Fu. The weight in the picture is 20lbs. If a person rushes the training then they risk tearing up their ligaments, tendons, and basically blowing out their knee.
View attachment 28624

So when I defend the low stance it's because it's something that I use.
View attachment 28625

View attachment 28626

By the way, Chinese Kung Fu Forms are very demanding physically. There's nothing easy about those things.

Examples used showing the low stance used in boxing. If I'm going to "beat a dead horse" then it's going to be this one lol

I was curious why people talking about "planking" all the time, even in one of the video here. I just tried it the first time for 2 mins. It's nothing. I don't even want to keep going as it's not even a challenge. I am sure I have no issue going 3 mins or maybe even 4 or more. It's nothing compare to the elastic band stuffs. Only thing I notice is my heart rate went up a little. I currently do 30 sit-ups 3 times a week, holding a 25lbs weight on my chest and make sure I don't use the weight as momentum and nothing holding my feet. planking is a cake walk compare to this.

I am actually very interested on weight training, just don't talk about it here much as it's not the right place until your post.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are some universal truths that people learn through sparring.

I strongle believe in this.

I had a student who doesn't want to learn stance, footwork, partner drill, solo drill, form, stretching, ... He just wanted to spar. In that 8 months, he and I sparred 4 times a week, 2 hours each. He paid me $200 each month. Back in 1974 that was a good tuition (my UT Austin tuition was only $50 per semester). After 8 months, one day he got into a fight. None of his opponent's punches could land on him.

The funny thing was, in that 8 months, I had body pain everyday. After 8 months, suddently my body felt no pain. I started to feel uncomfortable about myself.

That person had learned from sparring. He didn't even know how to do a horse stance, or bow-arrow stance.

 

[Alan0354]

I strongle believe in this.

I had a student who doesn't want to learn stance, footwork, partner drill, solo drill, form, stretching, ... He just wanted to spar. In that 8 months, he and I sparred 4 times a week, 2 hours each. After 8 months, one day he got into a fight. None of his opponent's punches could land on him.

The funny thing was, in that 8 months, I had body pain everyday. After 8 months, suddently my body felt no main. I started to feel uncomfortable about myself.

The person had learned from sparring. He didn't even learn how to do a horse stance, or bow-arrow stance.

Sparring is a whole lot more useful for real life. partner and solo drill are important also, not as much as sparring. I said it many times, MA is the art of kicking butt, not to look graceful and pretty. We have ballet for that.

Must be good for you too, sparring with a beginner gives you a chance to run through all the drills easier and in slower speed. Both of you benefit from it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sparring is a whole lot more useful for real life. partner and solo drill are important also, not as much as sparring. I said it many times, MA is the art of kicking butt, not to look graceful and pretty. We have ballet for that.

Must be good for you too, sparring with a beginner gives you a chance to run through all the drills easier and in slower speed. Both of you benefit from it.

If you have good sparring experience, you can't careless whether a form may hide any secret or not.

The reason is simple. If that hidden secret is useful, somebody had already found that out in the ring, or on the mat. If that hiddn secret is useless, that secret should be hidden forever.

 

[Alan0354]

If you have good sparring experience, you can't careless whether a form may hide any secret or not.

The reason is simple. If that hidden secret is useful, somebody had already found that out in the ring, or on the mat. If that hiddn secret is useless, that secret should be hidden forever.

Agree 100%

The more I read your posts, you are really MMA!!! You learn WC, Taiji and other stuffs like Wrestling etc. You get to pick out what is useful and what's not, throw out the useless stuffs and keep the ones that work in the real world. That's what MMA means. Nobody said you have to follow UFC MMA!!!

Yep, if those hidden secrets are useful, people would have use it in the ring like UFC. That's why I kept saying anyone think they are so good, proof it in the ring. Don't trash talk. One butt kicking speaks a 1000 words. I have not watched UFC for a month or so, I watched one just last night. I stand by everything I said. I only want to learn what's practical in real life, if it is so deep, they can keep it. If one think their style is useful, get into the ring, fight with those fancy moves and stance. Do NOT go up there and fight like typical Muy Thai/BJJ. Use their own moves to win.

I guess I am very shallow, I only study who's butt is being kicked and who's kicking butt. I only look at techniques that kick butts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I only look at techniques that kick butts.

My senior SC brother had a fancy technique.

- He moves behind his opponent.
- lifts his oponent up in the air with his knee (this is the harderst part).
- Swings his opponent behind his back.
- He then uses leg block to throw his oponent forward.

He was the only person that I know who could make this fancy technique worked in tournament over and over. He could even lift his 260 lb student up in the air with his knee.

He always said that my knee seize technique was low level skill. But I had used my knee seize to win 7 rounds contineously in one US SC tournament.