"Common" Moves Not Found in Forms

[Alan0354]

Famous for their fighting ability? Being famous is not an indicator of one's ability to fight.


When I saw the first video. I could tell that some of them never sparred against some who punches. Their footwork was horrible and the dressed as if they were unprepared. I also knew that they weren't a good representation of kung fu.. the Kung Fu Master clearly lacked the fundamentals of fighting and moving

What make you think the others are any better. Maybe they spend too much time on forms and trash talk. It's easy to sit back and judge. I am sure everyone of those that got butt kicked by Xu will sit back and criticize Xu on this and that. That's why I kept say, shut up and get on the stage and fight. That's one thing I don't like, arm chair quarterback.

Funny those people actually willing to go on big stage to fight like these:

This just show me those people don't know their limit. These are on big stage, they are NOT nobody.

Do you know that there is a bounty on Xu Xiaodung for whoever can beat him? I am still waiting.

You go search on youtube, plenty of other people kick the butts of those kung fu people. If they have the goods, they really should step forward defending their honor. This is BAD.

Look at this, this is sad:

This guy made it on tv:

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This logic also applies to those MMA people too. They all start from scratch and it's up to them to be up there. I am sure they have other priorities in their lives too. So this is equal opportunity. Unless you say TMA don't have the talent to make it up there. It's a fair game. Those MMA people have family, have to make a living also just like everyone else. So don't say they are the elite ones only, why can't TMA attract elite people?

Since you are target-locked on MMA, let me use an analogy. If we looked at soccer (football) and considered what strategies and training methods the top 30 teams in the world use, we'd dismiss a lot of training that is used effectively at much lower levels. I coached youth soccer for a couple of years, with an undefeated record. But I doubt many of the methods I used (both training and on-field strategy) are the same as those elite athletes use. Are theirs better? Probably. Might even be "better" at the youth level. But what I used worked, and worked quite well for the kids involved. Something doesn't have to produce the best elite result to be effective, and that goes for MA as well.

I cannot speak about grappling as I don't know enough. But for striking, things are quite simple. You can clearly see what works and what doesn't. This started even earlier than MMA. Bruce Lee came into the scene mostly boxing hands and TKD kicks. Who dare to challenge him at the time? Only after he died and people came out and said they can beat Lee.

It's interesting that you focus on what works in MMA competition, then use the legend of Lee in the next paragraph. He might have been a fantastic fighter - we really don't have evidence of that from competition.

It is very obvious boxing hands, TKD kicks or other that is similar ( Karate) are very effective. WHICH is already part of Muy Thai. Muy Thai add on top, elbows and knees to complete the striking part. I've seen fights that the competitor claim certain style, but when they fight, they fight like Muy Thai. They know what works and what doesn't. These are very straight forward that one can learn in a short time, just practice to perfection is hard. It's simple, like the fastest way and simplest way to go from point A to B is a straight line. Don't make it fancier than that. Less is more.

This shows a limited understanding of some things. TKD kicks are significantly different in some important ways from MT kicks, so they are not "part of Muy Thai". They have some similarities in their kicks, but they are not the same kicks.

I have no reply to that. If I want arts, I play guitar. I was a working musician when I was very young. I was a working photographer 30 years ago. I guess if I want art, I'd do that. This is fighting art and just leave it at that.

You say you have no reply, then basically say, "don't do things I don't like." I don't care if you don't like my training. It's not for you. I work to help folks develop beyond just fighting skills (which I hope they'll never need). And for me, I want it to remain interesting, fun, and intellectually stimulating - for me. So I seek what does those things for me. You should seek what works for you, and worry less about what others are traininng.

I might not be an expert in MA, but I did a lot of things in life like science, music, photography to high degree. Electronics is my career, I was working and earn money with the other two also. One thing I learn, the solution should be the simpler the better. A lot of time, the simplest way is the best way. Use common sense, don't make it more complicate than it has to.

Physics isn't simple. Especially at the quantum level. But I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion at hand. We're talking about how people train MA, and why some folks like using forms. The best training is the one you gain skills from because you keep doing it. Most folks will train much longer and a bit harder if they find the training interesting. So that's what they should look for.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But is it better to win first then worry about how graceful and artistic the moves are?

Win what?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I follow what you guys are saying. I agree with health maintenance. I believe the more modern way is to do weight training. I talk mainly on fighting because this is MA forum. I spend half of my exercise time on weight/resistance training. MA exercise break down the body, weight training rebuild the body. As people get older and still doing intense MA, injury is a lifestyle. Weight training fixes most of my injuries. It is more efficient and make you stronger.

I said it many times already, I injured my back in the 80s and for a while, I cannot even stand for 2 minutes without tingling going down my legs all the way to the toes. Doctor exhausted all different treatments, they finally put me on rehab with weights actually doing in the gym. That literally saved my life.

There is some magic about doing weights IN THE CORRECT WAY( you really need to learn how to do it, not just pushing and pushing, that can hurt more). Based on result, look at the top athletes today, they stay on top to the age people would not dream of just 30 years ago. It's all from weight rehab. If you just keep up with the weight without trying to stay on top of the game, I bet you can last as long as you live. It is so much more efficient and to the point. Time is money in the modern world. BUT, you need to get professional help to learn before you venture out on your own doing weights. It can be dangerous if not doing right.

As I said before many times, if I have to choose between MA and weight training, it's a no brainer, I drop the MA in a heart beat. I am always very adventurous, I don't believe to just blindly follow what is established. I always stop and think and question the validity. I do not defend the existing, instead I always find better ways to achieve the goal. Believe it or not, I usually find better ways to achieve the goal.

You're back to binary here. There are many ways to develop strength. All of them work. "Best" is a judgment that has to be based on more than the simple efficiency of training time. For instance, I used to travel a lot for business. Most hotels had zero free weights (a few had a dozen dumbbells, and maybe 20% had some signficant resistance machines). So I did other things. And they worked. Try to stop looking at the world in a "best vs. everything else" view, and consider that not everything less than the most numerically efficient option is broken.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is a discussion about MA on the forum here. I don't just practice for fighting. To me, this is aerobics. For self defense, I go everywhere with my Nylon cane and I practice stick fight just as much as MA. It's half and half. With half aerobics and half weight training. I am only putting 1/4 of my time in MA. I call this aerobics only.

But I believe in practicing what fit the best for my situation. I have no one to practice with, all the fancy moves cannot be practice alone. So I concentrate in practice things that can be practice alone. Punching hard, kicking hard, increase the speed. This I can practice alone and is good aerobics.

For self defense, it's the cane. I am even consider applying for a CCW permit as so many older Chinese are being attacked now a days. That is self defense.

Interesting that here you make specific points about WHY you train the way you CHOOSE to train. Yet you seem to spend a lot of effort pushing the notion that others shouldn't have their own reasons for WHY they CHOOSE their approach.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, it's all two to three steps moves. like punch high, then kick low. Kick to body and punch high. Attack at different level. Very simple. Just try to practice until I don't have to think to do it.

Just like What Kung-Fu-Wang always talk. I first thought he was talking kata like stuffs. But then I realize he is talking about one or two step moves that can be used in fights. Be that his stuffs are very fancy, I just stay simple as I don't have anyone to practice with on the more fancy stuffs.

Like I said, I use it as aerobics, not to go fight with people. It's better than running and all that. This and stick fight are my aerobics, then I spend half of the workout time on weights. You guys are really MA, it's exercise for me with the benefit of being able to do self defense if ever needed............Still, I use my cane as stick to fight.

The primary kata in my primary art are all 1-3 moves. The longer forms I added later (first as part of my personal training, then later for my own students).

 

[JowGaWolf]

What make you think the others are any better. Maybe they spend too much time on forms and trash talk.

I think others are better because I have shown videos of others who were able to use their kung fu better.

This just show me those people don't know their limit. These are on big stage, they are NOT nobody.

I don't think the issue is that they don't know their limits. I think their issue is that they don't spar outside of their system as they seem to not understand how other systems fight. Wing Chun vs Wing Chun won't help the student be better at Wing Chun. Wing Chun vs a Different System is the better way to be good at Wing Chun. This goes for any system out there. If I want to be good in Jow Ga kung fu then I need to spar against people who don't do Jow Ga.

Hopefully the MMA guy doesn't mind sparring this month. He hasn't been kicking the bad so I'm thinking he might be injured. If I can't spar with him then I'll spar with the boxing guy in the gym. I'll record videos of it. The boxing guy is new at boxing and the MMA guy is experienced in fighting. Either way some sparring is better than no sparring. I'll show you Jow Ga in use so that you can stop focusing on people who can't fight. And so you'll understand what effective kung fu training looks like.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The primary kata in my primary art are all 1-3 moves. The longer forms I added later (first as part of my personal training, then later for my own students).

Even in long forms the combinations are 1-3 moves. There is an assumption that kata is one big combination. In reality it's a group of 1-3 moves that are done in a flowing manner. The best way to understand this is for people to break down the form and identify which parts are single techniques and which are combinations. This is the same process that I use for Jow Ga forms.

Some time the combinations can be connected. For example Combo 1-2-3 is followed by combo 4-5-6. Because these combos flow into each other. I can take movement 3 and add it to movement 4 and have a practical two move combination. The only thing that I don't like about kata and forms is that sometimes it's difficult to know where one combo ends and another begins. But I guess that's just me being lazy since thinking about the techniques in that manner is beneficial to my own development. It's a lesson in critical thinking I guess.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here's how I look at Famous Kung Fu Masters.

Famous Boxing coaches are not the best fighters. However, they are the best boxing coaches and they are often recognized for producing good fighters.

Famous Kung Fu Master are not the best fighters, However, they are the best teachers and they are often recognized for producing good fighters.

Famous Fighters are often not the best coaches, However, they are often recognized as the best fighters.

Just because a Kung Fu Master can't fight doesn't make invalidate his knowledge and understanding of a system. It just means he's a horrible fighter. If a Kung Fu Master produces horrible fighters then he's a bad fighter and a bad teacher and you probably shouldn't train with him.

Perfect example, Ronda Rousey's coach that wasn't work 2 cents. Don't train under people like that.

Example of a good coach. Mike Tyson's first coach. Notice the one thing that they don't say is that his coach was a great fighter.

Learn to look beyond your own bad experience and bias @Alan0354

 

[Alan0354]

I think I said everything I want to say already. I injured my back two days ago, I don't even feel like talking anymore.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think I said everything I want to say already. I injured my back two days ago, I don't even feel like talking anymore.

Tai chi Chuan might help…

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think I said everything I want to say already. I injured my back two days ago, I don't even feel like talking anymore.

Take care of your back. "Heal first train later"

 

[Alan0354]

Take care of your back. "Heal first train later"

I think it's from practicing the front kicks. I have so much fun keep kicking higher and higher and use the heel. I over did it. I just did a light session today, it's a little better.

I have been pushing the boundary, I think I pushed to the limit for now.

 

[Olde Phart]

Alright-alright-ALRIGHT! Let's vote and agree which one of y'ns can have the last word. We all understand now that everyone is right and everyone else is wrong! Can we get back to the "forms" aspect of the original post, hmmm?

 

[mograph]

It may be equally telling to note what techniques were NOT included in the [Okinawan Karate] forms, even though commonly practiced today in many schools.

.......

NO roundhouse kicks, back kicks, spinning kicks or high kicks! Just ONE crescent kick. Just TWO side kicks (one to each side,) and just two jump kicks. There are also several notable hand techniques missing or rarely present.

......

Many of these "missing" moves are quite useful in modern sport competition and for physical exercise. But looking at the original combat function of early karate and its forms, and its relevance to self-defense nowadays, are these missing moves really missed?

Yes. There's a recap.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think it's from practicing the front kicks. I have so much fun keep kicking higher and higher and use the heel. I over did it. I just did a light session today, it's a little better.

I have been pushing the boundary, I think I pushed to the limit for now.

Sounds like you are kicking too high too soon. Your body may be trying on compensate for weakness with the muscle that's responsible for lifting the leg.

At this point you shouldn't be kicking above waist height at the most. I personally recommend just doing the knee lifts and leg lifts for a month and then start kicking higher. Until then just keep the kicks at a comfortable height.

It's better to kick with good kicking form at a lower height than to kick at a higher height with bad form. Good kicking form is vital for delivering powerful kicks.

 

[Olde Phart]

JowGaWolf, I agree. I'm 67 and can definitely feel when the kicks are straining a muscle. I keep kicks within reason as far as height is concerned. My instructor says I "kick like a mule" so I'm pretty sure I can accomplish what I want when I kick someone. Besides, if it doesn't work, I can gum them to death!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If we accept that traditional forms (by this I mean those developed prior to mass public instruction and developed for the most part prior to 1920 and sport karate) were developed by combat professionals to encapsulate their fighting style, it follows that the forms tell us something of the techniques the originating master thought significant and worthy enough to be included and passed on.

It may be equally telling to note what techniques were NOT included in the forms, even though commonly practiced today in many schools.

Most Okinawan styles' forms share a lack of a number of these "common" moves, mostly kicks. Using my style as a representative example, I note that our combined list of seven inherited traditional forms lack the following:

NO roundhouse kicks, back kicks, spinning kicks or high kicks! Just ONE crescent kick. Just TWO side kicks (one to each side,) and just two jump kicks. There are also several notable hand techniques missing or rarely present.

I see two or three main explanations. One, these techniques were not deemed combat-effective enough, or posed too much risk (vulnerabilities or balance), to be included in the forms. Two, they were part of the curriculum but were not memorialized in forms, taught more informally on a personal basis. And, thirdly, perhaps the intention was to just keep the system as simple and stripped down as possible. Afterall, it's not the quantity of moves, but the quality of the moves and their tactical implementation that's paramount. Maybe there are elements of all these reasons.

Many of these "missing" moves are quite useful in modern sport competition and for physical exercise. But looking at the original combat function of early karate and its forms, and its relevance to self-defense nowadays, are these missing moves really missed?

Master Shimabuku had diagrams posted in his dojo in Agena, as I am told. They showed the various empty-handed kata and two weapons kata, one each for bo and sai. Then there was one named 'kumite'. I am told that when asked, he replied that kumite was what we might refer to as tuite. Hand techniques, releases, and some advanced bunkai. There are a variety of videos by Master John Bartusevics demonstrating those techniques at a seminar, which I believe the techniques you describe as missing. Unfortunately, I cannot find those videos online. I was told that some Isshinryu groups refer to them as the 'Secret Scrolls of Kumite', although of course they are not secret.

There is, by the way, a Ushiro Geri kick in Isshinryu, described by Masters Mitchum and Harril as a 'bonus kick'. There is also a Ni-Dan Geri, seen later of course in two kata, but not in the kihon.

 

[isshinryuronin]

There is, by t he way, a Ushiro Geri kick in Isshinryu, described by Masters Mitchum and Harril as a 'bonus kick'. There is also a Ni-Dan Geri, seen later of course in two kata, but not in the kihon.

While my thread began with "Moves Not Found in Forms," the converse is also true: There are also a lot of moves found in kata, but not found in a system's basics.

Why wouldn't the master include these moves in the kihon? Two reasons come to mind. One, he didn't think they would come up often enough in a fight to warrant extra practice, outside the forms (drills), at the expense of others. Two, the application of those moves were held back to be taught to select students at the proper time. In either case, they still remained enshrined in the kata. For those who do not practice kata, they are missing out on these moves.

My first sensei did drill us on some of these moves, including the Ni-dan Geri, which is basically a jumping double kick that can be found in a couple of our advanced kata. This move, IMO, can have 4 applications:
1. It is actually two kicks in quick succession
2. The first kick is a feint, setting up the second one.
3. The first motion is not a kick but raises the knee to provide "torque" for the second move, the actual kick.
4. The first motion is not a kick, but a check to block an opponent's kick, then followed by a counter kick.

Bill, by any chance is the back kick (ushiro geri) you are referring to near the end of Chinto? If not, where in kata is it?

P.S. Nice to see you back.

 

[punisher73]

While my thread began with "Moves Not Found in Forms," the converse is also true: There are also a lot of moves found in kata, but not found in a system's basics.

Why wouldn't the master include these moves in the kihon? Two reasons come to mind. One, he didn't think they would come up often enough in a fight to warrant extra practice, outside the forms (drills), at the expense of others. Two, the application of those moves were held back to be taught to select students at the proper time. In either case, they still remained enshrined in the kata. For those who do not practice kata, they are missing out on these moves.

My first sensei did drill us on some of these moves, including the Ni-dan Geri, which is basically a jumping double kick that can be found in a couple of our advanced kata. This move, IMO, can have 4 applications:
1. It is actually two kicks in quick succession
2. The first kick is a feint, setting up the second one.
3. The first motion is not a kick but raises the knee to provide "torque" for the second move, the actual kick.
4. The first motion is not a kick, but a check to block an opponent's kick, then followed by a counter kick.

Bill, by any chance is the back kick (ushiro geri) you are referring to near the end of Chinto? If not, where in kata is it?

P.S. Nice to see you back.

The back/rear kick is not found in IR's katas. It was practiced as one of the "basic kicks" though. Also, originally, IR had a "toe rip" kick that was replaced around the time the US Marines started to train with Shimabuku. The front heel thrust was taught instead since no one really went around bare foot anymore for the toe rip kick to be utilized.

In my opinion, your basics should be just that. The foundation of your style/system that everything else is built on. I also think that it follows the 80/20 rule. About 80% of your results are obtained from 20% of your techniques. The vast majority of training time should be spent on perfection the basics. The more "advanced" techniques are usually responses to situations that may not have occurred as much or the techniques had a more limited focus.