Can you learn from video?

[Phobius]

Problem with learning from a video is not that "someone can do it". The PROBLEM is that as long as most can not without risk of injury it is dangerous to present it as a viable option on a respectable forum.

Of course some people are clever enough or have enough history to piece together instructions based on text or videos. Most people watch a video, consider the instruction to be as a bible and then try to copy every single movement to the best of their abilities. Any flaws in their actions they try to remedy in order to make everything look exactly the same.

What if what is shown in that video is how it is supposed to look once you trained it in a specific manner, such as kicking the head. You need to stretch properly so you do not damage your hip from trying to reach a height of your foot that is not where you should aim initially.

Or doing a punch with more power than your body is still equipped to handle, or a technique that you do not have enough balance to deal with. Or a hand technique and movement that because of crappy footwork causes you to bend your knee badly.

Before anyone has a chance to correct you of the most dire errors you have injured yourself and your time as a martial artists comes to an end before it even started.

And now we have not even reached the risk of you training yourself for years thinking you must be good because you have never seen any martial artist other than on video. Being bold you try to defend yourself from the wrong people and instead of running you end up in a gutter somewhere broken down to pieces.

So yes, start out by learning from videos, if it feels like a good idea for you. But please make sure to know it is your own decision and do not blame anyone if it ends badly. If you wanted a low risk, high gain you would have went to a class instead.

 

[Tez3]

My point is that there are certain things that you really cannot learn and become competent at by watching a video

You see, I did say that.

 

[Steve]

Kpm did state in the OP, or at least imply heavily, that video alone is viable. He has since clarified his position on that point. I personally am willing to accept that.

Anyone here has the right to bow out of, or continue with, a discussion, as long as the discussion continues. As long as Tez3, Flying Crane and others continue to attribute to KPM a point that he has not made, then KPM can continue to voice his disagreement.

Fixed that for you.
so weird. In the first paragraph you acknowledge that the poster has clarified his position. In the second, you go right back to suggesting he has not and is at fault. Crazy.

As long as some posters do what you've done above, how can anyone blame the guy?

Well you did. I've said a couple times now that you clarified that particular point and I'm willing to accept that. I wasn't going to stay on that particular issue, but Guthrie brought it up again. That wasn't implied. It was stated. But I'm ok moving on from it.

You've got some other backwards notions tho, and I continue to disagree with those.

If this discussion is frustrating to you, then you can walk away from it, it makes no difference to me. But if you keep disputing it, then so shall I.

this is like the fourth or fifth time you've said you're moving on.

 

[Steve]

You see, I did say that.

This is true.

 

[Flying Crane]

Problem with learning from a video is not that "someone can do it". The PROBLEM is that as long as most can not without risk of injury it is dangerous to present it as a viable option on a respectable forum.

Of course some people are clever enough or have enough history to piece together instructions based on text or videos. Most people watch a video, consider the instruction to be as a bible and then try to copy every single movement to the best of their abilities. Any flaws in their actions they try to remedy in order to make everything look exactly the same.

What if what is shown in that video is how it is supposed to look once you trained it in a specific manner, such as kicking the head. You need to stretch properly so you do not damage your hip from trying to reach a height of your foot that is not where you should aim initially.

Or doing a punch with more power than your body is still equipped to handle, or a technique that you do not have enough balance to deal with. Or a hand technique and movement that because of crappy footwork causes you to bend your knee badly.

Before anyone has a chance to correct you of the most dire errors you have injured yourself and your time as a martial artists comes to an end before it even started.

And now we have not even reached the risk of you training yourself for years thinking you must be good because you have never seen any martial artist other than on video. Being bold you try to defend yourself from the wrong people and instead of running you end up in a gutter somewhere broken down to pieces.

So yes, start out by learning from videos, if it feels like a good idea for you. But please make sure to know it is your own decision and do not blame anyone if it ends badly. If you wanted a low risk, high gain you would have went to a class instead.

and to add to the point here, this discussion is in the Chinese arts, Wing Chun sub-forum. One thing I do know is that the Chinese methods, including Wing Chun, operate on principles of power generation, rooting, power transfer, etc. that can be difficult to see in action, especially for a beginner. Doing it correctly and EFFECTIVELY means that you engage these principles with what you do. It isn't the movement itself that is important. It is HOW you do that movement that really matters, and only then is the actual movement important. And that requires hands-on, physical instruction and lots and lots of correction on-going. You cannot get that thru video. If you don't understand the principles and you just do the movements then it's like driving a corvette with a lawnmower engine under the hood. Sure it still looks nice, but the performance is decidedly lacking. There is no depth in the training.

This is why I stated earlier that for anyone whose instruction has been only, or primarily, through video, I strongly suspect their skills are not so good as they may believe.

You just don't even know what it is that you don't know.

 

[Flying Crane]

Fixed that for you.
so weird. In the first paragraph you acknowledge that the poster has clarified his position. In the second, you go right back to suggesting he has not and is at fault. Crazy.

As long as some posters do what you've done above, how can anyone blame the guy?

this is like the fourth or fifth time you've said you're moving on.

In my second paragraph I was referring to a different point he had made. My apologies if that wasn't clear. Then Guthrie brought up the first issue again, so I clarified.

See what I did there? I failed to communicate clearly, so I took ownership of it and didn't blame the misunderstanding on the other party.

 

[Tez3]

It isn't the movement itself that is important. It is HOW you do that movement that really matters, and only then is the actual movement important. And that requires hands-on, physical instruction and lots and lots of correction on-going. You cannot get that thru video

I am a very experienced karateka and MMAer, been at it for decades, I've tried JKD ( yes I know it's not WC) and found it very difficult with a first rate instructor, to learn from videos would be impossible even given I do understand what the instructor is talking about yet cannot do it.
I'm sure you can learn to copy moves from a video in a sort of monkey see, monkey do way but that isn't safe and is not going to make you a competent martial artist.

 

[Flying Crane]

I am a very experienced karateka and MMAer, been at it for decades, I've tried JKD ( yes I know it's not WC) and found it very difficult with a first rate instructor, to learn from videos would be impossible even given I do understand what the instructor is talking about yet cannot do it.
I'm sure you can learn to copy moves from a video in a sort of monkey see, monkey do way but that isn't safe and is not going to make you a competent martial artist.

yup, copying movement is easy. I've done it. I've learned forms that way. It's not difficult.

I dropped those forms from my practice years ago. I was always embarrassed to admit how I had learned them. Was always afraid I would run into someone who knew them legitimately, and he would see me for the fraud that i was. I knew I didn't understand what I was doing, I was just a mimic.

 

[geezer]

No, I didn't say that, I said learn competently therefore learning safely and being safe.. Different thing.

Yes. Learning efficiently, safely and precisely according to cannon, or tradition, requires a competent instructor. But we aren't talking the apostolic succession in the C of E here, just martial skill. If the need is great and an instructor isn't available, humans are surprisingly apt at coming up with functional solutions. After all, the plains tribes produced highly competent horsemen.

Of course if you re-invent something rather than receiving it as passed down directly, it won't be precisely the same as the original. In the case of very traditional martial arts such as the Koryu of Japan, I'm sure that if the lineage is broken, the art the art cannot be re-created and is considered lost forever ...at least that was the impression I got from posts by Chris Parker.

On the other hand in HEMA, a close and functional approximation is considered acceptable. And people are working very hard at accomplishing this with varying degrees of success. I've participated in a few HEMA classes and I felt the trainers to be competent -- that is well informed with functional skills and a well thought out, safe, and logical curriculum derived from the old treatises. The very existence of such arts in our times is again proof that one can, with difficulty, learn from written and video sources.

The real key it seems to me is to be part of a larger group that can experiment and test what you are coming up with. People going it alone often end up with very impractical and strange interpretations.

 

[geezer]

Oh... one more thing. None of what I said above really relates to WC ...or very much to the discussion here ...because I firmly believe that for and individual to try to learning something like WC via "distance learning", videos, etc. alone is a fool's errand. I've said as much before.

The other posts were meant as a sort of general reflection on the human potential to innovate, problem-solve and assimilate knowledge.

 

[KPM]

I certainly realize that some people cannot think in 3 dimensions and so will never be able to pick up on a physical skill from a 2 dimensional book or video. I feel bad for them. But there is nothing I can do about that. However, for those same people to continue to assert that their disability applies to everyone equally is just plain silly. And for them to repeatedly try and twist someone else's words around to prove a point is even sillier.

Thanks Steve for bringing up HEMA. That was going to be my next point. These guys have recreated a skill and done it very well, not from video.....but from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages. And they are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year. I know a lot of these guys. And they are very good at what they do. And what they do is a real martial art. They would laugh at this whole argument about whether someone can learn effectively from video, because they have done it from books....old books....written in archaic foreign languages. I have taken part in that as well. So yeah, instructional video is easy compared to trying to translate Renaissance era German and match it to art work, which I have done, quite extensively. Before I drifted away from that and went back to my Asian martial arts studies I had translated a large part of Paulus Hector Mair's "Magnum Opus" from the 1500's. I was the guy to ask about Mair's version of German Longsword technique. So I find the fools that say it can't be done quite amusing and a bit frustrating I will admit.

Now just stop to think a bit people. Our martial ancestors took notes. Many lineages have documents written in poetic script and keywords to try and help remember what had been taught to them after the teacher was gone. Don't you think those guys would have been thrilled to death if they could have made a video of their teacher for future reference? Don't you wish there was more footage of Ip Man?.....or Uyeshiba?....or Funakoshi?.....or Wong Fei Hung?....or Leung Jan? To denigrate the use of modern video...for whatever use or benefit it may give....is just plain stupid in my opinion.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well that was insulting, arrogant and condescending..... quite the achievement

Thanks Steve for bringing up HEMA. That was going to be my next point. These guys have recreated a skill and done it very well, not from video.....but from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages. And they are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year. I know a lot of these guys. And they are very good at what they do. And what they do is a real martial art. They would laugh at this whole argument about whether someone can learn effectively from video, because they have done it from books....old books....written in archaic foreign languages.

So...you know a lot of guys that learned from from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages, that And are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year...who might all of these guys be? We must know them since they hold international tournaments

I have taken part in that as well. So yeah, instructional video is easy compared to trying to translate Renaissance era German and match it to art work, which I have done, quite extensively.

You have translated Renaissance German and matched it to art work..extensively....ok.

Before I drifted away from that and went back to my Asian martial arts studies I had translated a large part of Paulus Hector Mair's "Magnum Opus" from the 1500's. I was the guy to ask about Mair's version of German Longsword technique. So I find the fools that say it can't be done quite amusing and a bit frustrating I will admit.

Interesting, did you teach yourself the sword with it?

Now just stop to think a bit people. Our martial ancestors took notes. Many lineages have documents written in poetic script and keywords to try and help remember what had been taught to them after the teacher was gone. Don't you think those guys would have been thrilled to death if they could have made a video of their teacher for future reference? Don't you wish there was more footage of Ip Man?.....or Uyeshiba?....or Funakoshi?.....or Wong Fei Hung?....or Leung Jan? To denigrate the use of modern video...for whatever use or benefit it may give....is just plain stupid in my opinion.

True, but they took notes while training with there Shifu, they did not give those notes to others and say here, go teach yourself. And wanting more footage of historical marital arts figures of the past is, IMO not the same as grabbing a video and learning from it.

Now with that said, I have known a couple guys who taught themselves a style well enough to impress the teacher they eventually went to train with (one teacerh was Chen Zhenglei and the other was Park Bok Nam) However both had a lot of training in other arts before they tried it and one had some minor training in the art he picked up from video before. So I know it can be done, but it is rare that it is done well and it takes one with talent and attention to detail. But you know something neither of those guys ever showed the poor attitude you just showed with your last post....which make me think....The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks...

But for the majority of people out there, video learning is at best a supplement for training with a real teacher

I done, you have a nice day

 

[Flying Crane]

I certainly realize that some people cannot think in 3 dimensions and so will never be able to pick up on a physical skill from a 2 dimensional book or video. I feel bad for them. But there is nothing I can do about that. However, for those same people to continue to assert that their disability applies to everyone equally is just plain silly. And for them to repeatedly try and twist someone else's words around to prove a point is even sillier.

Thanks Steve for bringing up HEMA. That was going to be my next point. These guys have recreated a skill and done it very well, not from video.....but from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages. And they are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year. I know a lot of these guys. And they are very good at what they do. And what they do is a real martial art. They would laugh at this whole argument about whether someone can learn effectively from video, because they have done it from books....old books....written in archaic foreign languages. I have taken part in that as well. So yeah, instructional video is easy compared to trying to translate Renaissance era German and match it to art work, which I have done, quite extensively. Before I drifted away from that and went back to my Asian martial arts studies I had translated a large part of Paulus Hector Mair's "Magnum Opus" from the 1500's. I was the guy to ask about Mair's version of German Longsword technique. So I find the fools that say it can't be done quite amusing and a bit frustrating I will admit.

Now just stop to think a bit people. Our martial ancestors took notes. Many lineages have documents written in poetic script and keywords to try and help remember what had been taught to them after the teacher was gone. Don't you think those guys would have been thrilled to death if they could have made a video of their teacher for future reference? Don't you wish there was more footage of Ip Man?.....or Uyeshiba?....or Funakoshi?.....or Wong Fei Hung?....or Leung Jan? To denigrate the use of modern video...for whatever use or benefit it may give....is just plain stupid in my opinion.

Seems to me that what you are really doing is looking for validation in what you are doing. That's in the flavor of the opening post, and certainly in this post. Very defensive, upset that some would point out the glaring flaws in your approach, and obsessively certain you are right, arrogant enough to believe that you are that rare individual who can gain some success in this manner. And desperately in need of approval.

You are free to do whatever you want. You don't need my approval, nor anybody else's.

There you go. You are free. Happy now?

 

[Steve]

In my second paragraph I was referring to a different point he had made. My apologies if that wasn't clear. Then Guthrie brought up the first issue again, so I clarified.

See what I did there? I failed to communicate clearly, so I took ownership of it and didn't blame the misunderstanding on the other party.

And so what should we do now? If we follow your example, it seems the answer is to keep bringing up your miscommunication over and over and not truly take you at your word. I see what you actually did there, but I'm not sure at all yiu see it, and am positive you're not ready to take ownership of it.

 

[Phobius]

I certainly realize that some people cannot think in 3 dimensions and so will never be able to pick up on a physical skill from a 2 dimensional book or video. I feel bad for them. But there is nothing I can do about that. However, for those same people to continue to assert that their disability applies to everyone equally is just plain silly. And for them to repeatedly try and twist someone else's words around to prove a point is even sillier.

Thanks Steve for bringing up HEMA. That was going to be my next point. These guys have recreated a skill and done it very well, not from video.....but from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages. And they are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year. I know a lot of these guys. And they are very good at what they do. And what they do is a real martial art. They would laugh at this whole argument about whether someone can learn effectively from video, because they have done it from books....old books....written in archaic foreign languages. I have taken part in that as well. So yeah, instructional video is easy compared to trying to translate Renaissance era German and match it to art work, which I have done, quite extensively.

Just pointing out that learning easy is not easy based on being a video. Learning gets easier based on complexity of knowledge and clarity of description.

Now learning if you already know much is easier than if you know nothing.

To say that learning something from a video for a beginner is very different from telling someone to research an art. You do research, test thesis, try, compare with other arts and so on. For a video people take it as being truth and try to mimic. Or are you suggesting people should not learn from videos but rather research the art using videos and try it with friends and study other similar arts to see if the core can be underst
ood? Quite a difference.

 

[Tez3]

I feel bad for them.

However, for those same people to continue to assert that their disability applies to everyone equally is just plain silly. And for them to repeatedly try and twist someone else's words around to prove a point is even sillier.

Wow, you really want to put the knife in don't you and you say people are insulting you! I think you have made your position clear, you look down on everyone who doesn't think as you do and you are the only one who not only has a right to an opinion but your opinion is the only correct one. Fine, just watch you don't trip over anything with your nose so high in the air sneering at everyone.

 

[KPM]

Wow, you really want to put the knife in don't you and you say people are insulting you! I think you have made your position clear, you look down on everyone who doesn't think as you do and you are the only one who not only has a right to an opinion but your opinion is the only correct one. Fine, just watch you don't trip over anything with your nose so high in the air sneering at everyone.

My friend, the EXACT same thing can be said of you, and crane! Have you not pushed the point over and over despite my clarifying and reposting my comment from the OP? Have you both not persisted in maintaining I said something that I did not, despite my clarifying it over and over? Sorry if I respond in kind. Sorry if I return arrogance with arrogance. That's just the way it is. I could be all nicey and apologize. But why should I. You didn't.

 

[KPM]

Well that was insulting, arrogant and condescending..... quite the achievement

----Well, thank you! I just returned like with like. I repeatedly said we could agree to disagree, but they wouldn't listen to that. Multiple times I pointed out that I personally on more than one occasion was able to learn from video before seeking out hands on instruction and they continued to say it couldn't be done. So they were essentially saying I was lying. Maybe I was a little less subtle, but in the end what is the difference?


So...you know a lot of guys that learned from from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages, that And are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year...who might all of these guys be? We must know them since they hold international tournaments

---You would know if you were into HEMA. You want names? Jake Norwood... USA. Richard Mardsen....USA. John Patterson.....USA, Michael Edelson....USA. Anders Linnard....Sweden. Axel Peterson....Sweden. Roger Norling....Sweden. Matt Galas....Belgium. Mischael Lopez Cardoza....Holland. Matt Easton...England. Illka Harketanian...Finland. Paul Wagner....Australia. Perica Lopez....Mexico. Roberto Martinez-Loyo....Mexico. Fabrice Cognot...France. Just a very few. Large events are now held every year in the USA, Sweden, England, and Germany. Here is one of the biggest ones held each year in the USA:

Home

Here is the one held in Sweden every year:


Swordfish | Celebrating European Martial Arts



Interesting, did you teach yourself the sword with it?

---Yes. One researches it from the old texts. Then puts it into practice training with others to see if the interpretation actually makes sense. Compares notes with other people doing the same thing (working from the same text) to see if they are coming up with the same interpretation. Practices with wasters, blunts, and eventually cutting practice with sharps. Use it in competition against others to see if it holds up under pressure. This has been going on within the HEMA community for over a decade now and the interpretations are getting better and better. They have all gone off and left me behind because I have not kept up.



True, but they took notes while training with there Shifu, they did not give those notes to others and say here, go teach yourself. And wanting more footage of historical marital arts figures of the past is, IMO not the same as grabbing a video and learning from it.

---I think you missed my point.

 

[Red Sun]

As a 3rd party observer...
Neither of you want to back down because it would 'validate' the other persons position.

 

[KPM]

Seems to me that what you are really doing is looking for validation in what you are doing.

---Ok. If it makes you happy. Sure. Are you not looking for validation of your own ideas? Is that not why you keep posting the same assertions over and over?


upset that some would point out the glaring flaws in your approach, and obsessively certain you are right, arrogant enough to believe that you are that rare individual who can gain some success in this manner.

----I have said several times now that we can agree to disagree on the value of video training. But you have continued to press your point that one cannot start out with video before an instructor. So just who is being "arrogant" and "obsessively certain" here?? I am not the only one that has protested to you lumping everyone into the same category that you are now calling a "rare individual." Apparently, it isn't as rare as you think.

---I probably shouldn't write this, and will likely get a "moderator warning" for it, but oh well. I'm sure I will be accused of being "arrogant" and such, but oh well. I'm probably doing it out of "ego" and "seeking validation", but oh well. Some might find it amusing. But I'm sure you will just gloss over it like everything else I have written. But oh well.

1. You have repeatedly maintained that in my OP I said that someone could learn a martial art entirely and solely from video. This despite the fact that multiple times I have reposted my comment from my OP where I said that hands on instruction was better and that eventually the video learner would have to seek out hands on instruction. Others have backed me up and suggested you go back and read my OP again. Don't you realize how stupid that makes you look?

2. You have repeatedly maintained that I have "glaring flaws" in my idea that someone can start learning from video prior to finding an instructor and have said that it cannot work, despite the fact that I have pointed out how it has indeed worked well for me personally on more than one occasion. Despite that fact that others here have said the same thing. So obviously what you maintain does not apply to everyone. Don't you realize how stupid that makes you look?

3. You have said that I have "backed myself into a corner" and that I have "back pedaled" or made an "about face", despite the fact that I have simply repeated what I wrote in my OP over and over and have never changed my position on things. Don't you realize how stupid that makes you look?

And Tez3 followed you down the same rabbit-hole. You both tell me something can never work that I have had work just fine for me on more than on occasion. Yet you both call me "arrogant"? Well, you two just carry on as you see fit. I think I am now done with this discussion.