Can one learn from instructional videos?

[Flying Crane]

I sometimes think it would be an interesting experiment to make a video about Tibetan White Crane and give it to someone with either zero martial arts experience, or else experience from a completely different system like Shotokan or kenpo or something. Tell them to work diligently with the video for a year without any other sources, and then check back and see how they are doing.

I'd even be really thorough in the explanations and stuff, give them all the info they need in the video to learn the basics and then the most basic form in the system.

It would be interesting to see what the result is after a year. The problem is, I don't think it's ethical to toy with people in that way.

 

[dancingalone]

I sometimes think it would be an interesting experiment to make a video about Tibetan White Crane and give it to someone with either zero martial arts experience, or else experience from a completely different system like Shotokan or kenpo or something. Tell them to work diligently with the video for a year without any other sources, and then check back and see how they are doing.

I'd even be really thorough in the explanations and stuff, give them all the info they need in the video to learn the basics and then the most basic form in the system.

It would be interesting to see what the result is after a year. The problem is, I don't think it's ethical to toy with people in that way.

Why not pick a simpler style? I think the chance for a better outcome would be higher.

 

[mograph]

Sidebar:

A friend of mine once asserted that you could learn anything from a book. She wanted to learn golf, so she read about it, then her husband took her out for her first round of golf.

She'll never golf again. It's a "stupid game", apparently, not worth learning.

They're still married. Barely.

 

[Flying Crane]

Why not pick a simpler style? I think the chance for a better outcome would be higher.

well, because it's what I do, and who says it's any more complex than any other?

The basic form I am talking about is literally walking down and back throwing six different types of handstrikes. It's the basic strikes in our system, with appropriate stances and stepping. But we do them in a very particular way, and I honestly doubt someone would really grasp what is happening without a good teacher to guide him.

 

[dancingalone]

well, because it's what I do, and who says it's any more complex than any other?

You also do kenpo, right? As for complexity, dunno about your Tibetan Crane, but during my time on MT, I've seen numerous statements about CMAs, particularly those classified as internal, being rather subtle and complex.

I just think if one really wanted to carry out your proposed experiment, it would seem a better test case would examine a set of skills deemed 'basic' or 'simple'. Now whatever system that might be, who knows? Perhaps you don't even bother operating under a system. Just try to teach discrete basics instead.

The basic form I am talking about is literally walking down and back throwing six different types of handstrikes. It's the basic strikes in our system, with appropriate stances and stepping. But we do them in a very particular way, and I honestly doubt someone would really grasp what is happening without a good teacher to guide him.

Yeah. Not having seen the form, I've no idea how tough it really is to grasp without guidance. On the other hand, I do have my suspicions that a form like the taikyoku kata from Shotokan karate might be doable with an intelligent and motivated student. That form only uses a front stance, down block, and lunge punch.

 

[Flying Crane]

You also do kenpo, right? As for complexity, dunno about your Tibetan Crane, but during my time on MT, I've seen numerous statements about CMAs, particularly those classified as internal, being rather subtle and complex.

I just think if one really wanted to carry out your proposed experiment, it would seem a better test case would examine a set of skills deemed 'basic' or 'simple'. Now whatever system that might be, who knows? Perhaps you don't even bother operating under a system. Just try to teach discrete basics instead.

yes, I'm a kenpo guy as well, but there are plenty of instructional videos out there for kenpo. I haven't seen any in TWC tho, and it's not classified as an internal system. It actually has some characteristics of both internal and external, tho if one had to choose either/or, I'd put it with external.

As far as teaching skills deemed as "basic", yes that is what I was thinking. They would be basic skills and a basic form of TWC, as done within that methodology.

Even so, it sort of skirts the point a bit, if one were to insist that they be limited to strictly basic skills. The argument is, after all, whether someone can learn thru video alone. Granted, if it were at all possible (which I do not believe), there would be less and less chance of success as the complexity of the material increased and one moved into more advanced material.

Yeah. Not having seen the form, I've no idea how tough it really is to grasp without guidance. On the other hand, I do have my suspicions that a form like the taikyoku kata from Shotokan karate might be doable with an intelligent and motivated student. That form only uses a front stance, down block, and lunge punch.

No knowing the shotokan, I can't comment specifically. But it's my suspicion that all systems are complex, in their own way. They have their own nuances and specific ways of doing things, and to someone who has not yet received training in those ways, it would seem complex and elusive thru video. I don't think that one system is necessarily more complex than another. It's just that they are complex in their own way. For some people, one particular method might not work welll, but for others it would. A lot of that depends on the right system for the right person.

But I still do not believe that one can learn thru video alone, other than a shallow mimickry of the choreography.

 

[dancingalone]

Even so, it sort of skirts the point a bit, if one were to insist that they be limited to strictly basic skills. The argument is, after all, whether someone can learn thru video alone. Granted, if it were at all possible (which I do not believe), there would be less and less chance of success as the complexity of the material increased and one moved into more advanced material.

That seems intuitively correct even without research to back it up. It is a much less daunting task to teach basic skills via video rather than advanced ones, which are compound expressions of the basic ones often with the need for sensitivity added which only comes from experience. I've written here before and I think you've even commented on it, that I had a complete MA newbie come to me proudly after explaining he had taught himself the roundhouse kick by watching an instructional video. And truthfully he had. Sure I had to make a important correction, but the incident really opened my eyes about what can be possible with the right student and resource combination.

No knowing the shotokan, I can't comment specifically. But it's my suspicion that all systems are complex, in their own way. They have their own nuances and specific ways of doing things, and to someone who has not yet received training in those ways, it would seem complex and elusive thru video. I don't think that one system is necessarily more complex than another. It's just that they are complex in their own way. For some people, one particular method might not work welll, but for others it would. A lot of that depends on the right system for the right person.

But I still do not believe that one can learn thru video alone, other than a shallow mimickry of the choreography.

I believe discrete, isolated skills can be taught via video. You still need in-person instruction to correct your mistakes and give you improvement tips however. The key is that the video must be detailed enough and the student must be persistent and bodily aware enough to follow the video.

We all rail on video instruction (I have too) because it's executed poorly. The fact is that even teaching a 'simple' technique like the reverse punch would probably take a few hours on video to do, since presumably an exhaustive core dump would have to be made by the recorded teacher. In person, that doesn't happen. You give the student a little bit at a time at his rate of absorption since you have the luxury of seeing him several times a week. The typical video only skirts briefly on each technique, trying to pack everything into a minimal time frame. The detail just isn't there and that's why the video student doesn't even have a chance.

I wonder if it would be different if quality instructional videos were actually out there. The cost of producing something that even approximates a core dump would be ruinous since the filmer would never recoup his initial investment.

 

[Flying Crane]

That seems intuitively correct even without research to back it up. It is a much less daunting task to teach basic skills via video rather than advanced ones, which are compound expressions of the basic ones often with the need for sensitivity added which only comes from experience. I've written here before and I think you've even commented on it, that I had a complete MA newbie come to me proudly after explaining he had taught himself the roundhouse kick by watching an instructional video. And truthfully he had. Sure I had to make a important correction, but the incident really opened my eyes about what can be possible with the right student and resource combination.



I believe discrete, isolated skills can be taught via video. You still need in-person instruction to correct your mistakes and give you improvement tips however. The key is that the video must be detailed enough and the student must be persistent and bodily aware enough to follow the video.

We all rail on video instruction (I have too) because it's executed poorly. The fact is that even teaching a 'simple' technique like the reverse punch would probably take a few hours on video to do, since presumably an exhaustive core dump would have to be made by the recorded teacher. In person, that doesn't happen. You give the student a little bit at a time at his rate of absorption since you have the luxury of seeing him several times a week. The typical video only skirts briefly on each technique, trying to pack everything into a minimal time frame. The detail just isn't there and that's why the video student doesn't even have a chance.

I wonder if it would be different if quality instructional videos were actually out there. The cost of producing something that even approximates a core dump would be ruinous since the filmer would never recoup his initial investment.

Good points you make, and I think that if a truly thorough and exhaustive, core dump instructional video were made, it would be the even more rare individual who would be willing to dig into it and give it the effort and dedication that it would take to learn in this way. I suspect that most people would find it boring. Everybody wants to be entertained. Who would want to sit thru two hours of instructional video on the reverse punch? And go over it over and over to really understand it? And of these rare people, it would be an even more rare person who could actually self-critique effectively and recognize his own mistakes and truly fix them.

I would be really surprised if that magic combination ever came together.

Everybody wants to believe that they are that exceptional person. But no, they are not.

 

[Carol]

I wonder if it would be different if quality instructional videos were actually out there. The cost of producing something that even approximates a core dump would be ruinous since the filmer would never recoup his initial investment.

The content is limited by the market. In Kenpo, for example, one can find instructional videos from white to black for X hundred dollars....I think a typical range for a reputed program is $400-$700 bucks. Some instructors have done supplemental videos to drill in to a concept, some folks such as Larry Tatum have done podcasts to illustrate a finer point.

However there isn't (to my knowledge) a DVD for (say) $39 that flies through the techs, white to black, in a way that might help a 1st Brown prepare for that long BB test. I also don't think there is an option to pay (say) $3000 to get the DVD that goes in to excruciating detail.

I have seen folks that have done very well. Mr. Bill Parsons, for example, is a 3rd Dan in the IKCA, and in my opinion he is a very good Kenpoist and teacher. The difference is he also had a 3rd dan in Hapkido before learning the Kenpo system.

As someone that works nights, I can appreciate how life circumstances can take a person away from their training, and I think our men and women abroad are particularly concerned about it.

To be honest, one of the better implementations I've seen has been Gracie University. It includes the video instruction, a community to ask questions, and a member directory so you can other people in your area to roll with. I still wouldn't dream of learning BJJ via video!! However, I do give props to Ryron and Renner for building a system around the training, and not just a one-and-done DVD.

 

[Flying Crane]

There is another side to this question, and that is: why does an instructor feel the need to produce instructional videos and make his art available in this manner, to the masses?

There is an obvious answer: $$$$$, and empire-building.

But aside from the obvious answer, is there another reason? I honestly don't understand the need or desire to "get the art out there" and spread it around and get as many people as possible doing your art. I could never understand a need for this, nor why anyone would want to do it.

Why do people feel that every/any system ought to be available to anyone who wants it?

 

[Carol]

There is another side to this question, and that is: why does an instructor feel the need to produce instructional videos and make his art available in this manner, to the masses?

There is an obvious answer: $$$$$, and empire-building.

But aside from the obvious answer, is there another reason? I honestly don't understand the need or desire to "get the art out there" and spread it around and get as many people as possible doing your art. I could never understand a need for this, nor why anyone would want to do it.

Why do people feel that every/any system ought to be available to anyone who wants it?

Difference of philosophical opinion maybe? Not everyone that wants it is going to be able to get it. The person that gets the DVD because they are not disciplined enough to go to class is probably not going get very far. But the a soldier picks up a video program and bangs with a battle buddy, or the EMTs that are on shift until Midnight, and then gather in someone's garage for a workout, may actually get constructive use for it.

Personally I don't support holding back information. I think the more information that is available for a system, the easier it is to separate the (forgive me, Domino's) truthery from the puffery.

The other aspect is....isn't the best part of training, being in class? Forming new friendships with people you never would have met otherwise, watching your instructor's face smile and glow as you pull new material together, the bonds you form with other people...whether its the mentor that helped you through a personal struggle, or your buddies that joined you for a pizza. What ever the experiences were, would you trade them for anything? I know I wouldn't.

 

[Flying Crane]

Personally I don't support holding back information. I think the more information that is available for a system, the easier it is to separate the (forgive me, Domino's) truthery from the puffery.

oh, and my position is not about holding back info. It's not that I feel it needs to be secret or mysterious or something. I'm more concerned with the appropriate methods for transferring the information and skills from one generation to the next. I just don't feel video is the way to do it, and I feel that empire-building often leads to a loss of quality-control. Lots of people are learning it and doing it and the art is spreading, but they are all doing it poorly. Then the next generation, and the one after that, are even worse. In my opinion, a good teacher who is selective about who his students are, and develops a strong and interactive relationship with those students while teaching them, is the best way to do it. It's the only way to get it across on a high level. Once you've got too many students, your teaching time and attention is spread too thin and you can't give each student the attention he/she needs to grow and learn appropriately. Even worse on video, because there is a complete disconnect between the teacher and student.

My sisuk (kung fu uncle) and I were talking about it one eveing, and he was saying that, with White Crane, there is no reason to hide or be secretive, because nobody wants to do it anyway. It looks a little odd, not what most people raised on a diet of MMA believe a fighting art SHOULD look like, and it takes a lot of work to learn it. So people either don't want to start, or they don't last very long anyways. So holding back and being secretive is completely pointless. The art itself, and the demands of training, are enough to drive most people away.

The other aspect is....isn't the best part of training, being in class? Forming new friendships with people you never would have met otherwise, watching your instructor's face smile and glow as you pull new material together, the bonds you form with other people...whether its the mentor that helped you through a personal struggle, or your buddies that joined you for a pizza. What ever the experiences were, would you trade them for anything? I know I wouldn't.

absolutely, bullseye

 

[dancingalone]

Good points you make, and I think that if a truly thorough and exhaustive, core dump instructional video were made, it would be the even more rare individual who would be willing to dig into it and give it the effort and dedication that it would take to learn in this way. I suspect that most people would find it boring. Everybody wants to be entertained. Who would want to sit thru two hours of instructional video on the reverse punch? And go over it over and over to really understand it? And of these rare people, it would be an even more rare person who could actually self-critique effectively and recognize his own mistakes and truly fix them.

I would be really surprised if that magic combination ever came together.

Everybody wants to believe that they are that exceptional person. But no, they are not.

I generally agree. But there are other reasons to make exhaustive "instructional" videos other than an attempt to teach students at a distance. I would be interested in documenting the Goju-ryu karate and kobudo systems I study and teach. They would be reference material for my dojo students and a few clips could be released here and there on the internet if only to help explain what authentic Okinawan karate looks like.

The trick is to do it correctly. None of the DVDs I have viewed to date in any system really do it right in my opinion. They're all bound by filming budgets and a need to recoup the initial investment and even make a profit. So the content tends to be sparse even if the production values can be quite good if done by a professional publisher like Turtle Press. I WOULD want to spend hours on each topic with multiple front, back, side, and birdseye views of technique described.

By the way, I read over on KenpoTalk that someone in the Tracy Kenpo org recently released a series of "Instructor" level DVDs. Apparently, the yellow belt material alone is covered in 3 DVDs which seems like a step in the right direction. Have you seen these, Flying Crane?

 

[Flying Crane]

I generally agree. But there are other reasons to make exhaustive "instructional" videos other than an attempt to teach students at a distance. I would be interested in documenting the Goju-ryu karate and kobudo systems I study and teach. They would be reference material for my dojo students and a few clips could be released here and there on the internet if only to help explain what authentic Okinawan karate looks like.

Now this, I would have not problem with. Documentation of they system meant primarily as a reference for those within the system who already have a teacher, makes a lot of sense. It's that whole idea of, Hey, come and learn my system thru video instruction! that I just can't get behind.

By the way, I read over on KenpoTalk that someone in the Tracy Kenpo org recently released a series of "Instructor" level DVDs. Apparently, the yellow belt material alone is covered in 3 DVDs which seems like a step in the right direction. Have you seen these, Flying Crane?

I am aware of these, but I have not seen them. I haven't felt a need to have them in my collection, even tho I'm a Tracy Kenpo guy myself. I'm lucky in that I train with one of the most senior instructors in the Tracy lineage, under Al. He's been around for a very long time and is one of the leaders in our lineage. Given that, I don't feel the need to look at other's videos for references to our techs and system.

Maybe someday I'll feel differently, but at this time I just don't feel the need to have them. I wouldn't object to an opportunity to view them and see how complete they are, but I don't feel like paying to own them.

 

[East Winds]

After over 20 years training (and teaching) Taijiquan, my teacher can still make me realise that I am not doing some of the basics (whatever they are) correctly!!!! What chance would I have trying to learn from video!!!!!!!

Very best wishes

 

[Golden Harvest]

Greeting Deepak,

Yes you can learn from a DVD. It depends on the learner's prior background and the teaching quality of the DVD. Like you, many of us are not fortunate enough to have access to a quality Tai Chi school or quality instruction. I have been disappointed with too many poor instruction out there. Thanks to this forum and YouTube, we can be informed. As for the choice of DVD - Yang Zheng Duo (YZD) versus Yang Jwing-Ming (YJM)- it's a tough call. I am not aware of any DVD by YZD that are in english. The ones that I own have either english subtitles or poorly translated english. Not much in terms of teaching quality. On the other, YJM's DVD on the Yang Tai Chi Form has great teaching quality and if one practice diligently, it may be possible for one to learn the form. You'll have to put up with his commericials for his other DVDs, books, CD, and other merchandise. Besides the DVDs from YZD and YMJ, I suggest looking into the DVDs by YZD's grandson, Yang Jun. His DVDs are in English and he does an excellent teaching job. Very professional and not as commercialize as YJM. Another reason I favor Yang Jun is that you will be learning the Yang Tai Chi directly from the Yang Tai Chi founder's family. His DVDs are not not cheap but they are worth it in my opinon. If interested, you can check them out at the following website:

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/products/

Sorry I can't offer any help on the Chen style Tai Chi.

Good luck on your Tai Chi quest.

 

[Haakon]

I generally agree. But there are other reasons to make exhaustive "instructional" videos other than an attempt to teach students at a distance. I would be interested in documenting the Goju-ryu karate and kobudo systems I study and teach. They would be reference material for my dojo students and a few clips could be released here and there on the internet if only to help explain what authentic Okinawan karate looks like.

My Aikido instructor (is he still my instructor if I haven't trained with him for years?) has made several DVDs for that reason. He wants to document Aikido as he teaches it and believes it should be done, and as a supplement for his students, not to get people around the world to do "his" Aikido.

My Hapkido instructor has DVDs as well, but doesn't sell them online, mail order etc, they are reference material for his students. I plan on buying it whenever they can get a new supply burned, I figure it will be good reference material to view at home and during slow times at work.

The biggest problem I see with learning from a video, and it's a big problem, is there is no one there to correct any mistakes the person is making. Take something fairly simple like a reverse punch. You see it on the video, looks easy, try it, feels Ok so you're good, right? But there is no one there to say your punch wasn't to the center line, your stance was too narrow, your back leg was bent, back foot was turned out and should be parallel with the front foot, you didn't snap your hips at quite the correct time....and the 1,000 other things a live, in person, instructor would (or should) be telling you.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This is a post on Don Roley's blog related to utilizing video tapes/dvd's for training. While Bujinkan specific it certainly applies across the board and makes for some excellent reading:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=423858376&blogId=523229250

 

[Haakon]

That was a very good article on video training Brian, it might shatter a few dreams from people but seems spot on to me.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes a few dreams taken away but hopefully they will realize that they need to have a live, breathing instructor and someone to correct their mistakes and constantly push them to improve!