Can you learn from video?

[KPM]

['Accused', 'insulted' words indicating you are taking this very personally. No one has accused you, no one has insulted you.

---Well yeah. When someone is misrepresenting what I have written, and then persists in telling me what I wrote despite my attempts to clarify....yeah, I take that personally and see it as an attack on my integrity.

You are blaming others for their, in your eyes, lack of reading comprehension but if it were just one person seeing this then that could be true but it's not.

----You are right. And several other people have backed me up and suggested that crane go back and reread my OP. Evidently others read what I wrote and followed what I meant just fine. So I'm sorry if you and crane misunderstood what I wrote. I have tried to clarify it multiple times now for you and you persist in maintaining that I said something that I didn't say.


Telling complete beginners to learn from a video and then get an instructor, you would tell people to learn to ride a horse by video before finding an instructor or learn gymnastics including backflips etc?

---Yes! If they were truly interested in learning and had no access to an instructor immediately, what would be wrong with someone watching a video on various horseback riding methods....dressage, western, etc. to develop an understanding of what to expect from the instructor? What would be wrong from a young girl watching gymnastics videos to get an idea of what to inspect from an instructor and even start working on some basic cartwheels and somersaults to encourage her enthusiasm and interest? Young girls do somersaults and cartwheels all the time when playing without direct instruction from a gymnastics coach.


Have you actually learnt something that is potentially dangerous from scratch with no previous knowledge or training and become a competent and safe practitioner or have you with previous training just learnt a technique from a video?

---Well, let's see. I learned some basic hand-gunning skills from a "Gunsite" video, went to the range for practice multiple times and managed to hit the target without shooting myself, including reloading "on the fly" and drawing from a holster. Is that "dangerous" enough for you? Like I stated before, I started learning Tang Yik Weng Chun pole and the first form from video that my instructor specifically sent to me for that purpose. Then when I visited him for the first time in Hong Kong I had a good idea of what to expect and already knew the sequence of the entire first empty hand form and about the first 1/3 of the pole form. Did I do it perfectly? Heck no! Did I need lots of corrections? Of course! But by doing this I was way ahead of the game and was able to optimize my limited time in Hong Kong much better than if I had shown up knowing nothing. Sifu was actually a bit impressed with how much I was able to pick up from the videos. We worked on correcting my form, but I didn't have to worry about remembering the basic sequence. That helped tremendously. He then encouraged me to film him showing me the next stages of learning so I could work on those before my next training visit to Hong Kong. Just because you don't believe that you could do something like this is no reason to say that others can't do it.

---You failed to explain how you think I have "back pedaled" or made any kind of "about face" in my position on this thread. Please explain that bit of your logic to me.

 

[Flying Crane]

How do you figure? I will quote myself again from the OP:

Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction! At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training. But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.

Yup, it's all backwards, that assertion you are making.

Instruction with a teacher comes first. Later, IF done properly, and IF appropriate materials are used, then video can be a useful resource.

Video as the first source of instruction, trying to get a "head start" with the thought of finding a teacher later, is just full of problems and will create misunderstandings and bad habits that the teacher will need to fix. One step forward, two steps back. It's a net loss.

 

[Tez3]

---Yes! If they were truly interested in learning and had no access to an instructor immediately, what would be wrong with someone watching a video on various horseback riding methods....dressage, western, etc. to develop an understanding of what to expect from the instructor? What would be wrong from a young girl watching gymnastics videos to get an idea of what to inspect from an instructor and even start working on some basic cartwheels and somersaults to encourage her enthusiasm and interest? Young girls do somersaults and cartwheels all the time when playing without direct instruction from a gymnastics coach.

You are back pedalling now, you have changed what I said to something else. I said 'learn' horse riding or gymnastics from a video, you say there's nothing wrong with looking at videos to see what it's about, no, you don't get to do that, I asked you a direct question and you didn't answer. I ask again would you say that someone can learn horse riding and gymnastics without prior knowledge from a video? Now, I didn't mention young girls, so why do you assume it's girls? gymnastics aren't always about floor work would you recommend people learn to use gymnastic apparatus by watching a video without instruction? Also for your information 'young girls' are taught to do cartwheels by someone, they do not learn to do them by watching videos which is what we are talking about.

You seek to fog the issues which is why you are being picked up on.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

['Accused', 'insulted' words indicating you are taking this very personally. No one has accused you, no one has insulted you.

---Well yeah. When someone is misrepresenting what I have written, and then persists in telling me what I wrote despite my attempts to clarify....yeah, I take that personally and see it as an attack on my integrity.

You are blaming others for their, in your eyes, lack of reading comprehension but if it were just one person seeing this then that could be true but it's not.

----You are right. And several other people have backed me up and suggested that crane go back and reread my OP. Evidently others read what I wrote and followed what I meant just fine. So I'm sorry if you and crane misunderstood what I wrote. I have tried to clarify it multiple times now for you and you persist in maintaining that I said something that I didn't say.


Telling complete beginners to learn from a video and then get an instructor, you would tell people to learn to ride a horse by video before finding an instructor or learn gymnastics including backflips etc?

---Yes! If they were truly interested in learning and had no access to an instructor immediately, what would be wrong with someone watching a video on various horseback riding methods....dressage, western, etc. to develop an understanding of what to expect from the instructor? What would be wrong from a young girl watching gymnastics videos to get an idea of what to inspect from an instructor and even start working on some basic cartwheels and somersaults to encourage her enthusiasm and interest? Young girls do somersaults and cartwheels all the time when playing without direct instruction from a gymnastics coach.


Have you actually learnt something that is potentially dangerous from scratch with no previous knowledge or training and become a competent and safe practitioner or have you with previous training just learnt a technique from a video?

---Well, let's see. I learned some basic hand-gunning skills from a "Gunsite" video, went to the range for practice multiple times and managed to hit the target without shooting myself, including reloading "on the fly" and drawing from a holster. Is that "dangerous" enough for you? Like I stated before, I started learning Tang Yik Weng Chun pole and the first form from video that my instructor specifically sent to me for that purpose. Then when I visited him for the first time in Hong Kong I had a good idea of what to expect and already knew the sequence of the entire first empty hand form and about the first 1/3 of the pole form. Did I do it perfectly? Heck no! Did I need lots of corrections? Of course! But by doing this I was way ahead of the game and was able to optimize my limited time in Hong Kong much better than if I had shown up knowing nothing. Sifu was actually a bit impressed with how much I was able to pick up from the videos. We worked on correcting my form, but I didn't have to worry about remembering the basic sequence. That helped tremendously. He then encouraged me to film him showing me the next stages of learning so I could work on those before my next training visit to Hong Kong. Just because you don't believe that you could do something like this is no reason to say that others can't do it.

---You failed to explain how you think I have "back pedaled" or made any kind of "about face" in my position on this thread. Please explain that bit of your logic to me.

Bud, they will just keep on going. I completely understand and agree with your statements. You need to understand that some people just like to argue on this site and will continue to do so until the cows come home.

You can learn from video. There are things far more dangerous than the martial arts that are taught online through respected colleges.

So, just bow out and leave them to fluff their egos. With people like this, they are always right and everyone else is wrong. If you do not agree with them...they put words in your mouth.

Have a great day.

 

[Tez3]

Bud, they will just keep on going. I completely understand and agree with your statements. You need to understand that some people just like to argue on this site and will continue to do so until the cows come home.

You can learn from video. There are things far more dangerous than the martial arts that are taught online through respected colleges.

So, just bow out and leave them to fluff their egos. With people like this, they are always right and everyone else is wrong. If you do not agree with them...they put words in your mouth.

Have a great day.

Not a very arrogant post but it certainly panders to someone who writes something then says he doesn't. It's not a case that people like arguing, it's a case of people who are passionate about their art who are being dismissed by someone who thinks they and only they are correct. People aren't fluffing out their egos, frankly you haven't been here long enough to know who has an ego and who hasn't. I'll give you a clue, it's not those who are trying to get what KPM says straight. For a start no one has said you can't learn from a video ( so your post is incorrect), what KPM is arguing and he did say it though he says he didn't is that you can start teaching yourself from a video (any random video) before you find an instructor. To think that you can teach yourself the basics then have a look round to see if you can find somewhere to train is storing up a lot of problems.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Not a very arrogant post but it certainly panders to someone who writes something then says he doesn't. It's not a case that people like arguing, it's a case of people who are passionate about their art who are being dismissed by someone who thinks they and only they are correct. People aren't fluffing out their egos, frankly you haven't been here long enough to know who has an ego and who hasn't. I'll give you a clue, it's not those who are trying to get what KPM says straight. For a start no one has said you can't learn from a video ( so your post is incorrect), what KPM is arguing and he did say it though he says he didn't is that you can start teaching yourself from a video (any random video) before you find an instructor. To think that you can teach yourself the basics then have a look round to see if you can find somewhere to train is storing up a lot of problems.

Massively disagree. I have been here long enough to see the same people do the same thing when one doesnt agree with the statement.

Being passionate is ok. But, it doesnt make you right. People are individuals and people have varying opinions, things work for some that do not work for others.

The martial arts nor ways of training are set in stone. Some people get things immediately that takes others a lifetime to understand. But the constant arguing concerning what someone meant, takes away from constructive discussion.

If someone does change their original input, thats ok. The person probably didnt considered some of the points that have been made by others in their intitial statement and therefore adjusted their thinking.

KPM thinks video training is heplful and some people can learn from video with the help of a qualified instructor.

Although, I believe, personally, that an instructor is the best way to go, but still it is my personal opinion and it is what works for me. But, I understand the fact that people are individual and will do whats best for them and with dedication, can succeed.

KPM learned from a video first, then went to his instructor to fine tune it.

It worked for him, ttherefore for him, it worked.

I do agree with what you stated in a previous post..."isnt it funny how people read things differently".

I think that this is one of those cases.

Martial Talk is not an exclusive club, with a set of beliefs that must be followed and set in stone, regardless of what any longtimer suggest.
Although I do really respect your opinion tez, KPM never said video training alone is acceptable. I dont believe anyone here ever stated that.

 

[Flying Crane]

Kpm did state in the OP, or at least imply heavily, that video alone is viable. He has since clarified his position on that point. I personally am willing to accept that.

Anyone here has the right to bow out of, or continue with, a discussion, as long as the discussion continues. As long as KPM continues to push a point that others disagree with, then those others can continue to voice their disagreement.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I

Kpm did state in the OP, or at least imply heavily, that video alone is viable. He has since clarified his position on that point. I personally am willing to accept that.

Anyone here has the right to bow out of, or continue with, a discussion, as long as the discussion continues. As long as KPM continues to push a point that others disagree with, then those others can continue to voice th

Agreed. But thats the problem with thinking something is implied, it comes from your mind...not the OP's. His 2nd and 3rd point, clearly showed KPM's personal opinion.

I think sometimes people forget that as individuals, every opinion is correct. Maybe not for the masses, but individually, we are all right. At least in our own minds.

 

[KPM]

Yup, it's all backwards, that assertion you are making.

Instruction with a teacher comes first. Later, IF done properly, and IF appropriate materials are used, then video can be a useful resource.

Video as the first source of instruction, trying to get a "head start" with the thought of finding a teacher later, is just full of problems and will create misunderstandings and bad habits that the teacher will need to fix. One step forward, two steps back. It's a net loss.

Again. Explain how I have "backed myself into a corner." ?????? I have stated multiple times now that starting with video prior to getting with an instructor has worked at times fine for me. If you don't have the physical talent to do it, that's Ok. But don't assume that others can't do it!

 

[KPM]

You are back pedalling now, you have changed what I said to something else. I said 'learn' horse riding or gymnastics from a video, you say there's nothing wrong with looking at videos to see what it's about, no, you don't get to do that, I asked you a direct question and you didn't answer. I ask again would you say that someone can learn horse riding and gymnastics without prior knowledge from a video? Now, I didn't mention young girls, so why do you assume it's girls? gymnastics aren't always about floor work would you recommend people learn to use gymnastic apparatus by watching a video without instruction? Also for your information 'young girls' are taught to do cartwheels by someone, they do not learn to do them by watching videos which is what we are talking about.

You seek to fog the issues which is why you are being picked up on.

Now you are trying to put words in my mouth again! Geez! I tried to answer in the spirit of your question and the intent of the OP that started this thread. Now you are nit-picking things. I will state again....I have not "back-pedaled" or done an "about face" on anything I stated in my OP. You can twist things around any way you want. But how about we just agree to disagree?

 

[Flying Crane]

Again. Explain how I have "backed myself into a corner." ?????? I have stated multiple times now that starting with video prior to getting with an instructor has worked at times fine for me. If you don't have the physical talent to do it, that's Ok. But don't assume that others can't do it!

You keep asserting a faulty point of view, and have no way out of it now. Meh.

 

[KPM]

Bud, they will just keep on going. I completely understand and agree with your statements. You need to understand that some people just like to argue on this site and will continue to do so until the cows come home.

---Ain't that the truth!

You can learn from video. There are things far more dangerous than the martial arts that are taught online through respected colleges.

If you do not agree with them...they put words in your mouth.

----Sir, you are a prophet.

 

[Flying Crane]

I

Agreed. But thats the problem with thinking something is implied, it comes from your mind...not the OP's. His 2nd and 3rd point, clearly showed KPM's personal opinion.

I think sometimes people forget that as individuals, every opinion is correct. Maybe not for the masses, but individually, we are all right. At least in our own minds.

Please review my post, number 232, and tell me your thoughts on what KPM said in the section I quoted.

Thx

 

[KPM]

what KPM is arguing and he did say it though he says he didn't is that you can start teaching yourself from a video (any random video) before you find an instructor.

---Geez lou..eeze!!!!!! Reading comprehension skills people! So important! How about you get things straight before you go off on an "holier than thou" crusade! I NEVER denied saying that! In fact, just the opposite! I have maintained that is exactly what I said! What I did NOT say was that video can be someone's SOLE and ONLY form of instruction! Go back and reread the thread.

 

[KPM]

Kpm did state in the OP, or at least imply heavily, that video alone is viable. He has since clarified his position on that point. I personally am willing to accept that.

Anyone here has the right to bow out of, or continue with, a discussion, as long as the discussion continues. As long as KPM continues to push a point that others disagree with, then those others can continue to voice their disagreement.

Dude. The only thing I have clarified, multiple times now, is that you obviously missed the part in my OP where I said eventually the student will have to seek out an instructor. It is there. In the ORIGINAL POST. I can't help it if you misinterpreted what I said. But you only prove yourself a complete xxxxx to continue to say so. I am not pushing any point other than that you need to stop saying that I wrote something that I didn't, something that is clear for anyone else to go back and check. YOU are the only that is pushing a point. I've said multiple times now that we can agree to disagree on the value of video training. But you keep pushing your opinion.

 

[Tames D]

I think one thing we can all agree on, and that is there are people on this forum that are unable to learn anything, unless a qualified professional is looking over their shoulder in person. And that's alright, if that is all that works for them. I don't have a problem with that. I just don't appreciate them insisting that others have to fit into that box.

 

[Flying Crane]

Dude. The only thing I have clarified, multiple times now, is that you obviously missed the part in my OP where I said eventually the student will have to seek out an instructor. It is there. In the ORIGINAL POST. I can't help it if you misinterpreted what I said. But you only prove yourself a complete xxxxx to continue to say so. I am not pushing any point other than that you need to stop saying that I wrote something that I didn't, something that is clear for anyone else to go back and check. YOU are the only that is pushing a point. I've said multiple times now that we can agree to disagree on the value of video training. But you keep pushing your opinion.

Well you did. I've said a couple times now that you clarified that particular point and I'm willing to accept that. I wasn't going to stay on that particular issue, but Guthrie brought it up again. That wasn't implied. It was stated. But I'm ok moving on from it.

You've got some other backwards notions tho, and I continue to disagree with those.

If this discussion is frustrating to you, then you can walk away from it, it makes no difference to me. But if you keep disputing it, then so shall I.

 

[Tez3]

Now you are trying to put words in my mouth again! Geez! I tried to answer in the spirit of your question and the intent of the OP that started this thread. Now you are nit-picking things. I will state again....I have not "back-pedaled" or done an "about face" on anything I stated in my OP. You can twist things around any way you want. But how about we just agree to disagree?

I asked a simple question... 'do you think you can learn horse riding and gymnastics from videos', you didn't answer those questions. You changed it to looking at videos to get an idea of what to expect, thus circumventing my questions. The point being that you asserted you could start learning from videos and then find an instructor. My point is that there are certain things that you really cannot learn and become competent at by watching a video then copying the actions, martial arts is one of them. A poster on MT remarked that he'd taught himself a kick from watching a video but he didn't like doing it as it hurt his hip when he did it. If he'd learnt from an instructor and used the video as an aide memoire that would be the right way around not video first then instructor.

I don't suppose you want to stop insulting people by claiming it's their reading comprehension any time soon, the only one getting on their high horse is you, everyone else is calm. And you do know that I'm talking about your cart before the horse idea and not saying you said only video don't you?

 

[geezer]

I asked a simple question... 'do you think you can learn horse riding and gymnastics from videos'

Actually, history proves that you can. For example, you can learn to be an absolutely superb horseman just by watching somebody from afar riding, then catching or stealing a horse and teaching yourself from scratch. It just takes a long time.

This is exactly what happened when the American Plains Indians saw Spaniards riding, then captured and bred horses and taught themselves how to ride, eventually developing a complete way of life built on horsemanship and riding skills equal to the best anywhere in the world.

It took a few generations though ...and what emerged was not the same style of riding as what the Spaniards and other Europeans used:

http://www.equitours.com/wp-content...l_-_The_Buffalo_Hunt_No_39_-_1919-818x539.jpg

So consider KPM's perspective. I happen to know that he's knowledgeable in HEMA. Hema guys are recreating lost European martial arts from old manuscripts, along with authentic reproductions of period weapons and trial and error practice.

Learning from the old treatises (some of which KPM has translated into English) must be really arduous and way-harder than learning from well made instructional videos, but gradually HEMA guys are getting it down and developing functional skills which are probably very close to what was practiced historically. I personally know some of these guys, and what they do has come a long way from the early days of SCA LARPing. It's true martial art practice.

So to say that you absolutely cannot learn without direct instruction ...well OK that's probably true for me, but it isn't universally true. A more honest assessment would be to say that learning without direct, hands on instruction is ridiculously hard, will take generations to master, and is as stupid as re-inventing the wheel! No sane person would choose to take that route if there were any other choice.

Now in my experience, HEMA people, are typically bright, but very stubborn and of questionable sanity. And they have no other choice. The last masters of arms that could teach them in person died centuries ago. Come to think of it, I think I just described KPM!!!

 

[Tez3]

So to say that you absolutely cannot learn without direct instruction

No, I didn't say that, I said learn competently therefore learning safely and being safe.. Different thing.