Can you learn from video?

[Flying Crane]

A question, are you aware of any in the Washington state area? There are a few vids I have found and an instructional for shaolin white crane (curious if its the same?) but you are right about instructional vids on Tibetan, there isn't much.

Not aware of anyone in that area. There are three sister methods, all descended from a common Tibetan ancestor, they are Tibetan white crane, Hop Gar, and Lama Pai. No longer the same, but share some root concepts and principles, tho the forms are different now and I suspect the training methodology may be somewhat different. I'm not really familiar with the other two, so can't say for sure. I think there are some Lama and perhaps hop gar descendants in the NY City area, but I don't know who exactly, or how to get in touch. If heard if some others on the east coast, but again not sure who or where exactly.

Edit: I just realized you said Washington State. I read it as DC. I've got nothing in your neck of the woods, nothing I'm aware of.

 

[Flying Crane]

??????????

You have a question?

 

[KPM]

I disagree on terms that there are so many beginners out there that can hurt their shoulders badly just trying to mimic a simple move such as bong Sau.

Damage their spine and get a bad sense of structure from doing SLT.

Hurt their hand trying a chain punch on a bag.

There are so many details obvious to an instructor that a video student knows nothing about.

Can it work? Yes. Should it be a general advice? No.

So in a public thread titled Can you learn from a video? For the sake of safety we should be stating a resounding No. Or take some blame if people get hurt.

Quoting again from my OP:

Second, someone with a good foundation in any martial art should be able to learn something new from video. An absolute newbie that has done nothing martial arts related in the past is likely to have more trouble, but as long as he or she has any physical talent at all they should be able to benefit.

 

[KPM]

You have a question?

You didn't see those two comments as contradictory?

 

[Xue Sheng]

You didn't see those two comments as contradictory?

Obviously I am not Flying Crane, but when you take the two statements you posted out of context, like you did, then yes they are contradictory. But in context with this post in between

Hmmmmm...maybe I should test this theory. I have been looking for a new art to learn and haven't had to much luck locally.

Tried the Doshinkan, but when I asked about overall starting cost, I never recieved a response. Emailed him again and no response.

I have the time and the room at home.

And with Flying Cranes full post

If there were an instructional video available of my system, Tibetan white crane, I would suggest you give it a try and I would love to meet up and see how you do. Alas, I am not aware of any.

Then no, it becomes an test to see what happens, not an endorsement. But then I doubt Guthrie is a beginner with no MA background trying to learn from a video either.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ BLUF is that crane has been saying it was a bad idea and he wouldn't recommend it, and then he turned around and recommended it. For the most part I think, Guthrie wasn't speaking in terms of...."I don't believe this theory and we should test it out". He seemed to be speaking in terms of...."I'm in search of something new to learn and am considering Tibetan Crane". Flying Crane didn't say..."wait until you can find an instructor...or come and visit me and I will get you started". No, he endorsed the idea of looking for an instructional video to get Guthrie started.

But Guthrie, please correct me if I am wrong. Where you thinking "I really don't believe it will work, so let's do an experiment and test it!" Or where you thinking more along the lines of "I'm interested in learning something new, and would like to check out Tibetan Crane"??

Regardless, it is still contradictory for someone that was so opposed to the approach to turn around and recommend it, even as an experiment! It would have been much more appropriate to tell Guthrie to wait until he could meet with a Tibetan Crane instructor in person, given all that Flying Crane has written so far.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not exactly sure what "^^^^ BLUF" is supposed to mean but you should probably get Flying Cranes response to this as well; I do not speak for him. My only point was you were taking it out of context and without context it appeared to be one thing when in fact it is another, which to me, if intentional, is a bit disingenuous. If not intentional then I just wanted to point out the possibility of it being misinterpreted

You appear to be desperately trying to prove yourself right and all those that disagree wrong while insulting others becoming "Much Ado About Nothing"

And you have yet to answer my questions of post #312 by the way.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

But Guthrie, please correct me if I am wrong. Where you thinking "I really don't believe it will work, so let's do an experiment and test it!" Or where you thinking more along the lines of "I'm interested in learning something new, and would like to check out Tibetan Crane"??

More along the lines of a test. Although I have experience(in a few different systems) I am looking to test whether or not a person can learn a system thru video, while not having any experience in that particular system.

So far I have found limited vids on the white crane system.

Therefore I have decided to try two well known online video courses that are controversial but are offered by well known instructors.

1) Jerry PoteetPoteet's online course:
Most of my training deals with classical arts and I have zero experience with JKD
2) Gracie University
Two reasons for this one.
A) It has been discussed quite often here in MT and is familiar with several members.
B) I have zero ground experience in a the martial arts and was in a lengthy discusion here on MT, with other members and feel that I owe it a chance.

Also, I am located about 50 miles east of Portland Oregon and these two systems are present in the area. Which would allow me to test the results with experienced practitioners.

As for the perimeters of the test, any suggestions will be helpful.

 

[Xue Sheng]

But Guthrie, please correct me if I am wrong. Where you thinking "I really don't believe it will work, so let's do an experiment and test it!" Or where you thinking more along the lines of "I'm interested in learning something new, and would like to check out Tibetan Crane"??

It appears the answer is "test"

More along the lines of a test. Although I have experience(in a few different systems) I am looking to test whether or not a person can learn a system thru video, while not having any experience in that particular system.

 

[Xue Sheng]

But Guthrie, please correct me if I am wrong. Where you thinking "I really don't believe it will work, so let's do an experiment and test it!" Or where you thinking more along the lines of "I'm interested in learning something new, and would like to check out Tibetan Crane"??

More along the lines of a test. Although I have experience(in a few different systems) I am looking to test whether or not a person can learn a system thru video, while not having any experience in that particular system.

So far I have found limited vids on the white crane system.

Therefore I have decided to try two well known online video courses that are controversial but are offered by well known instructors.

1) Jerry PoteetPoteet's online course:
Most of my training deals with classical arts and I have zero experience with JKD
2) Gracie University
Two reasons for this one.
A) It has been discussed quite often here in MT and is familiar with several members.
B) I have zero ground experience in a the martial arts and was in a lengthy discusion here on MT, with other members and feel that I owe it a chance.

Also, I am located about 50 miles east of Portland Oregon and these two systems are present in the area. Which would allow me to test the results with experienced practitioners.

As for the perimeters of the test, any suggestions will be helpful.

I did some JKD (not much, but a little) and it was in the Jerry Poteet line (my teacher's teacher) and although I have not seen the online stuff I do have one of his old DVDs (originally VHS, that's what I mean by old) and it is pretty good, but I am not a judge of how good it is for one with no experience in MA or JKD since it covers pretty much what I was taught by my teacher. I would be interested in hearing how that goes, should you go JKD.

 

[Flying Crane]

You didn't see those two comments as contradictory?

I'm not advocating. It's a challenge. Guthrie says maybe he can do it. I know he can't. But if he tried with my system then at least I could make an evaluation of the results.

But somehow I think you knew this.

It won't happen, instructional videos of my system don't exist.

 

[Phobius]

Quoting again from my OP:

Second, someone with a good foundation in any martial art should be able to learn something new from video. An absolute newbie that has done nothing martial arts related in the past is likely to have more trouble, but as long as he or she has any physical talent at all they should be able to benefit.

I understand your point of view. But in what way would having physical talent help them benefit if they learn stuff that will ruin/injuring them in the long run? Having physical talent is indeed a key factor but it does not remove risks or injuries. In fact in some cases it might even make those injuries worse.

So I am asking again, do you think in general terms as a recommendation for all "newbies" with no prior experience of martial arts it is a good idea to state in a post that they are recommended to study videos and learn from there before seeing an instructor?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As for the perimeters of the test, any suggestions will be helpful.

I don't know anything about Jerry Poteet's material, but I'm familiar with Gracie University and can suggest some parameters for testing your ability to learn effectively through GU.

First, some guidelines for the study process:

1. You'll need at least one reliable training partner to study and practice with. You cannot learn the material without a training partner and the GU instructors (Rener and Ryron) say as much. Preferably the training partner(s) should be reliable, safety-conscious, patient, detail-oriented, open minded, fit and coordinated enough so that they won't be falling over for techniques that you haven't even applied all the way, but not so competitive that they're trying to spoil your techniques to prove they don't work. Someone with prior martial arts experience but an open mind for learning something new would be ideal.
2. Carefully follow all the instruction, including the bits on how to study and train and drill and stay safe and coach each other, not just the techniques.
3. Take notes on the details which are explained for each technique and then video yourself and your partner(s) to see if you are executing those details.
4. The lessons are sequential and build on each other, so go through them in order and expect to review each lesson at least 2-3 times before you get a reasonably solid grasp of the material.

Now, some ideas for the testing process:

1. Ideally, you would do a pre-test to gauge your starting ability on the ground. If you can, find a trustworthy friend who is reasonably large and athletic but does not have any grappling experience. Have him put on a pair of boxing gloves and sit on your chest while you are flat on your back. See if you can escape the mount without getting hit in the face too much. (Tell your friend to hit softly - no point in getting a concussion before you even start training.) Have him put you in a headlock and try to drag you to the ground - see if you can escape without just hitting him in the groin. Have him try to hold you down in side control. Have him start in your guard and see if you can keep him from hitting you. After that, start him on the bottom of mount with you on top and see how easily you can hold him down. Take notes or (preferably) video. This will be your baseline. (If you don't have an appropriate friend to help with the test, see if your local BJJ school offers trial classes. Try out as many of those as you can and get in as many rounds of live rolling as you can.) (In fact, even you do have a friend to do the test with, it's worth trying the actual classes as well so you can get a baseline for how easy it is to follow the teacher's instruction.)
2. The GU white belt material (Gracie Combatives) consists of 36 lessons and is focused on dealing with the most common behaviors by an untrained opponent, while also laying the groundwork for later lessons which are focused more on dealing with skilled grapplers. These are the same lessons which are taught in person at the Gracie Academy and students must complete each class 3 times before they are allowed to test for their first belt. You might want to set a goal of working your way through the entire 36 lessons three times before you go out and test the results.
3. Find the friend you did your baseline test with and go through the same set of tests. See how much improvement you have made.
4. Sign up for classes at a local BJJ school. (Don't tell them you have been studying online.) If possible, find a school that offers actual beginner classes so you don't get thrown into classes on exotic tournament techniques right away. See whether your practice with the GU material provides you with the background to more easily understand what the instructor is showing. When it comes time to roll, you will get crushed by most of the students who have been there a while - they've been sparring a bunch of other grapplers while you've been drilling with whatever friend(s) you were able to rope into your experiment. Don't worry about that. Just try to evaluate whether you are learning more and rolling better than you would have if you came in with no background.
5. If you have sparring partners for your standup art, see if you can get them to allow takedowns and ground-fighting in some of your sparring sessions. See if you have an advantage against sparring partners who have not been doing the GU lessons with you.

If you decide to do the experiment, take notes and keep us posted. If nothing else, the GU material is an excellent example for instructors who want to see how much explanatory detail can be packed into every technique.

 

[KPM]

Not exactly sure what "^^^^ BLUF" is supposed to mean

---Bottom Line Up Front. Sorry. Its a military term.

My only point was you were taking it out of context and without context it appeared to be one thing when in fact it is another, which to me, if intentional, is a bit disingenuous. If not intentional then I just wanted to point out the possibility of it being misinterpreted

---Not intentional at all. As I said, even if it was meant as a test, after Flying Crane has so strongly spoken out against this approach it seems he would be doing Guthrie a disserve to even recommend it as a test. And now he admits he knew that there were no videos of Tibetan Crane available anyway. Is not that a bit "disingenuous"?


You appear to be desperately trying to prove yourself right and all those that disagree wrong while insulting others becoming "Much Ado About Nothing"

---No. I am simply pointing out the problems someone is having with his logical thought process in a discussion where he has repeatedly said I have backed myself into some kind of corner or made an "about face" or reversed my position. None of which I have done. So just pointing how he continues to have problems with how he posts on this thread.

And you have yet to answer my questions of post #312 by the way.

---Uh....did you miss post #318?

 

[KPM]

So I am asking again, do you think in general terms as a recommendation for all "newbies" with no prior experience of martial arts it is a good idea to state in a post that they are recommended to study videos and learn from there before seeing an instructor?

Yes I do. I still don't see anything wrong with what I wrote originally in my OP. Everything is "buyer beware." Somebody could go to their initial first class with an instructor, see the more advanced students doing something, and then attempt that at home and end up hurting themselves. People have to take responsibility for things like that. To say I should somehow be accountable for my advice if someone goes off and does something stupid to hurt themselves is silly. After all, guys like Leung Ting, William Cheung, Samuel Kwok, Benny Meng, etc....have all put out instructional tapes for general public distribution. Should they all be liable if someone follows their video and hits a bag wrong and hurts their wrist????

Of course I should qualify things by protesting against the use of "all" in your comments. One can never say "all" or "everyone" because there are always exceptions to the rule. The guy with no physical talent and no common sense maybe shouldn't be studying martial arts at all, let alone from a video.

 

[KPM]

More along the lines of a test. Although I have experience(in a few different systems) I am looking to test whether or not a person can learn a system thru video, while not having any experience in that particular system.

---Ok. Fair enough. I think you would do Ok, given you clearly have some experience and common sense. Flying Crane seems to think he is setting you up for failure. Nice guy, don't you think?



Also, I am located about 50 miles east of Portland Oregon

---Ok then! If I was you I would forget all of that and drive up to Washington state to train with Maha Guru Stevan Plinck in Pencak Silat Serak. He also has students in the Portland area that you could get with. He is a well recognized "Master", and I do not use that term lightly.

 

[Blindside]

Also, I am located about 50 miles east of Portland Oregon

---Ok then! If I was you I would forget all of that and drive up to Washington state to train with Maha Guru Stevan Plinck in Pencak Silat Serak. He also has students in the Portland area that you could get with. He is a well recognized "Master", and I do not use that term lightly.

I will second that, I have never worked with him but have many friends who have and all have nothing but outstanding things to say.

 

[Xue Sheng]

---Uh....did you miss post #318?

Apparently I did, sorry, but I tend to look for quotes like done on MT,

like this

not Italics, I will look for those in the future

So...you know a lot of guys that learned from from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages, that And are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year...who might all of these guys be? We must know them since they hold international tournaments

---You would know if you were into HEMA. You want names? Jake Norwood... USA. Richard Mardsen....USA. John Patterson.....USA, Michael Edelson....USA. Anders Linnard....Sweden. Axel Peterson....Sweden. Roger Norling....Sweden. Matt Galas....Belgium. Mischael Lopez Cardoza....Holland. Matt Easton...England. Illka Harketanian...Finland. Paul Wagner....Australia. Perica Lopez....Mexico. Roberto Martinez-Loyo....Mexico. Fabrice Cognot...France. Just a very few. Large events are now held every year in the USA, Sweden, England, and Germany. Here is one of the biggest ones held each year in the USA:

So all of those guys learned from books written in archaic foreign languages, what did they learn?

Mind you. I am not saying it can't be done, there is a group in Singapore that does this "Historical Combat Association (Singapore)". chineselongsword.com. But the question is, how accurate are those who do this? and is there anyway to really tell. Sadly, as you pointed out, there are no videos of the originators of this to compare it to. Also the gentleman in Singapore is not your average person, as I am guessing the people you are referring to are not ether, as it applies to the guy buying a DVD to self teach themselves a marital art with little or no experience

True, but they took notes while training with there Shifu, they did not give those notes to others and say here, go teach yourself. And wanting more footage of historical marital arts figures of the past is, IMO not the same as grabbing a video and learning from it.

---I think you missed my point.

Actually I do not think I did, but lets agree to disagree here.

 

[Dirty Dog]

---Not intentional at all. As I said, even if it was meant as a test, after Flying Crane has so strongly spoken out against this approach it seems he would be doing Guthrie a disserve to even recommend it as a test. And now he admits he knew that there were no videos of Tibetan Crane available anyway. Is not that a bit "disingenuous"?

I would say it's more an example of keeping an open mind. There have been any number of changes in the world of medicine in the last 30 years that, after reading the preliminary studies, struck me as being incredibly awesome or stupid. Further research has sometimes shown me to be correct, and sometimes incorrect.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So all of those guys learned from books written in archaic foreign languages, what did they learn?

Mind you. I am not saying it can't be done, there is a group in Singapore that does this "Historical Combat Association (Singapore)". chineselongsword.com. But the question is, how accurate are those who do this? and is there anyway to really tell.

It's an interesting question. Kirk Lawson and the other HEMA practitioners here can go into more detail than I can. I had a really cool interview with Kirk and some other HEMA instructors a couple of years ago, but unfortunately lost the phone it was recorded on before I could get it transcribed.

From what I've gathered, here's what you can tell about the efforts of the HEMA community:

1) They've developed practitioners who have genuine skill and can fight.
2) The techniques and tactics they use match the pictures and written descriptions in the historical documents.
3) There is an ongoing research effort to find new historical documents, to compare and cross-check them with reconstructed training methods and surviving lineages, in an effort to improve the accuracy of the reconstructed martial arts.

What we don't know is whether the reconstructions have captured all the nuances of the original arts as practiced by the people who wrote those books generations ago. What we do know is that the reconstructions are functional.