Martial sacrilege (part 2)

[jobo]

Yes and no.

When a self taught schmuck who thinks he’s better than he really is runs his mouth at the golf course on Saturday morning, the worst case scenario is a bruised pride and losing a few dollars if he’s stupid enough to bet.

When a self taught schmuck who thinks he’s better than he really is runs his mouth at the pub on Friday night, a realistic scenario could be a bruised brain and losing a few teeth.

Fundamental difference. And a fundamental difference between a sport/exercise hobbyist MAist teaching himself and someone who actually thinks he’ll be capable of defending himself by watching some YouTube videos, dvds, books, etc. and trying to replicate it.

Obviously that doesn’t mean anyone who actually trains under a teacher won’t ever get stomped, but the odds are better when you have an actual teacher vs self taught.

that's not actually a logical argument, its a thing with ma that' Some people think they are much better than they are, but Then its a thing with a lot of activities that people have an over optimistic view of there own abilities.
i think its more a personality thing, than if they are. Self tought or or not.

there no reason why someone who is " self tought" should be more over optimistic than someone who is class tought.

if for instance someone has learnt tp punch properly from a vid and lots of practise, there seems no doubt that they are better prepared to defend themself than if they had not bothered, so its a net gain, even if you ( with out evidence) concluded that they would be better if they had an instructor, they are still better than they would otherwise have been

 

[JR 137]

that's not actually a logical argument, its a thing with ma that' Some people think they are much better than they are, but Then its a thing with a lot of activities that people have an over optimistic view of there own abilities.
i think its more a personality thing, than if they are. Self tought or or not.

there no reason why someone who is " self tought" should be more over optimistic than someone who is class tought.

if for instance someone has learnt tp punch properly from a vid and lots of practise, there seems no doubt that they are better prepared to defend themself than if they had not bothered

Does the self taught guy have people trying to punch him while he’s trying to punch them? Not in actual fighting, but in sparring? Does the self taught guy have someone say “you’re getting smacked because you’re doing...” or “you’re not hitting your opponent because you’re/he’s doing...?”

Makes a difference. Sure there’s bad instruction out there and teachers who gas their students’ heads up or genuinely think their students are good when they’re actually rubbish, but I don’t think this is as common as some make it out to be.

 

[jobo]

Does the self taught guy have people trying to punch him while he’s trying to punch them? Not in actual fighting, but in sparring? Does the self taught guy have someone say “you’re getting smacked because you’re doing...” or “you’re not hitting your opponent because you’re/he’s doing...?”

Makes a difference. Sure there’s bad instruction out there and teachers who gas their students’ heads up or genuinely think their students are good when they’re actually rubbish, but I don’t think this is as common as some make it out to be.

does the guy he is fighting out side the pub put in many hours of practise on his punching techneque? Probably not, so he,has a,clear,advantage over,were he would be had he not trained

 

[Zombocalypse]

Does that mean when you said you can’t learn MA from a video, what you actually meant was you can’t learn sparring?

I don't understand your question.

 

[Zombocalypse]

If you're feeling "immense pain" you're doing something wrong.

Doing something wrong with my roundhouse kick? How is that even possible? Are you saying there's actually a trick to not feel pain on your shins when you hit with your shins?

Really??

 

[Zombocalypse]

I’m not sure what he means which is why I’m asking him. Not all MA involve fighting, so I’d like to know if he thinks you can learn them from videos or not.

Yes you can. Give me a tai-chi instructional video and I can become a tai-chi master in less than a week. Perhaps that's an exaggeration (I wouldn't know because I have yet to learn tai-chi) but the point is correct. There are a lot of things out there that you can learn with the internet alone. Heck, in those things, you don't even need to buy a book. The information is free.

Case in point, this is me when I was 19 years old. Zero coaching from anybody, yet I accomplished a beyond-bodyweight jerk.

Nowadays, you can be almost as educated as a college graduate by simply typing the right things on google. We are in the age of information. It is a great era of human history. We should all take advantage of it.

 

[Saheim]

You really have me wondering about a hypothetical. Unfortunately, I would need two young humans and a remote island (with internet access) to test it. So, it will remain a hypothetical.

Could TWO guys learn MA from videos alone? I mean you take two guys, start 'em young, no instruction at all, other than videos from decent trainers. They have access to training equipment (bags, pads, etc) and can run drill or spar with eachother. I bet they could both turn out pretty effective.

That said, imho, a partner is very important. In fact, a lot of equipment sold is meant to be an (almost) substitute for a live partner but nothing is quite the real deal.

As for the experience vs training - I believe, if the exact same time is spent on both, experience trumps training. Meaning if one guy goes to class twice a week for an hour (the way many TMA guys do) and the other guy is in parking lot scraps, twice a week, my money is on the latter.

 

[Zombocalypse]

You really have me wondering about a hypothetical. Unfortunately, I would need two young humans and a remote island (with internet access) to test it. So, it will remain a hypothetical.

Could TWO guys learn MA from videos alone? I mean you take two guys, start 'em young, no instruction at all, other than videos from decent trainers. They have access to training equipment (bags, pads, etc) and can run drill or spar with eachother. I bet they could both turn out pretty effective.

That said, imho, a partner is very important. In fact, a lot of equipment sold is meant to be an (almost) substitute for a live partner but nothing is quite the real deal.

As for the experience vs training - I believe, if the exact same time is spent on both, experience trumps training. Meaning if one guy goes to class twice a week for an hour (the way many TMA guys do) and the other guy is in parking lot scraps, twice a week, my money is on the latter.

I agree with your experience comment...

I knew a guy who was in his forties and had a 700+pound squat and a background in wrestling. I once asked him how many fights he'd been on throughout his life and he told me it was over 300. Now, I don't know how he'd do in a sanctioned MMA match. But I would always always always bet on him if he was ever pitted against most formalized martial artists. He was something special.

Nothing... beats... real-life experience. This is not in martial arts alone. It's true in every facet of life. Of course, there's also the need to be able to reflect on your experience to actually learn from them, but that will already happen in a subconscious level. It's automatic.

 

[jobo]

Doing something wrong with my roundhouse kick? How is that even possible? Are you saying there's actually a trick to not feel pain on your shins when you hit with your shins?

Really??

yes hit a muscle

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Doing something wrong with my roundhouse kick? How is that even possible? Are you saying there's actually a trick to not feel pain on your shins when you hit with your shins?

Really??

You might be doing the kick wrong, or you might simply be kicking what you’re not conditioned for. That level of pain is a warning signal from your body.

And, yes, actually, there is a method to developing your leg to not feel that level of pain.

 

[Zombocalypse]

You might be doing the kick wrong, or you might simply be kicking what you’re not conditioned for. That level of pain is a warning signal from your body.

And, yes, actually, there is a method to developing your leg to not feel that level of pain.

How?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How?

That’s what training is for. The Muay Thai guys could answer that one. Some is technique, some is conditioning, and some is tolerance.

 

[Danny T]

Doing something wrong with my roundhouse kick? How is that even possible?

A Muay Thai kick...specifically what does that mean? There are several kicks used in Muay Thai.
How did you learn to do your muay thai kick...Video? A good instructor would have covered that with you.
And yes it is possible to do it wrong.

Are you saying there's actually a trick to not feel pain on your shins when you hit with your shins?

Really??

Trick?
No...But proper training, conditioning, and post training care is important. A good instructor would have covered that with you.

 

[Paul_D]

Yes you can. Give me a tai-chi instructional video and I can become a tai-chi master in less than a week. Perhaps that's an exaggeration (I wouldn't know because I have yet to learn tai-chi) but the point is correct. There are a lot of things out there that you can learn with the internet alone. Heck, in those things, you don't even need to buy a book. The information is free.

So if you can learn MA from videos, your earlier statement that you can’t learn MA from a DVD because DVDs don’t hit back, was incorrect?

 

[Zombocalypse]

So if you can learn MA from videos, your earlier statement that you can’t learn MA from a DVD because DVDs don’t hit back, was incorrect?

You CAN learn certain aspects of Martial Arts from videos alone. But you can't learn the entirety of the art with just videos alone. Tai-chi is an exception because it doesn't involve fighting.

 

[Paul_D]

You CAN learn certain aspects of Martial Arts from videos alone. But you can't learn the entirety of the art with just videos alone. Tai-chi is an exception because it doesn't involve fighting.

Ok, that’s clears up your opinion better. Thank you.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Ok, that’s clears up your opinion better. Thank you.

You're welcome.

 

[Danny T]

Tai-chi is an exception because it doesn't involve fighting.

Trained tai chi for approx 3 1/2 years which isn't a long period for truly learning it. Thankfully I have had a lot of other training prior so learning the gross aspects of the form wasn't very difficult but the fine tuning was far more difficult than any other art I have trained. I didn't continue because the instructor moved away and I haven't had the opportunity to find another instructor who knows more about tai chi than just doing the form. Oh and we did quite a bit of fighting with it not just form or push hands. He had us actually fight with it. Has helped every aspect of my abilities to engage with someone.

 

[Flying Crane]

A karate punch is not a martial art. Karate is a martial art. Tae Kwon Do is a martial art. An art does not revolve around an element of said art.

Actually, yes it can.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ah, I see.

You can learn certain techniques from videos. Yes. I can do a good chokozuki and a good roundhouse kick because of youtube alone.

Who told you they are good? Was that your own assessment?