Awesome Kung Fu Kick used in MMA

[Gerry Seymour]

Well in the MMA context he is wrong since we have yet to see anyone with a Kung fu background utilize that kick in MMA.

That doesn't change the fact that it's a kick in Kung Fu. That's the point of my earlier post. We can't discount that link just because that's not the source for the user. It's still a valid Kung Fu technique that shows up in MMA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I dont like dogma. And there is too much of it in martial arts. Every one got told oblique kicks will put your knee straight out. Usually with that 9 pounds of force will break a knee rubbish.

It plainly doesn't. And that messes with people.

I love evidence that is not from sport. But nobody ever presents that either.

Just stories.

That's a valid point about things like the knee kick. I know a knee kick can do damage (plenty of relevant similar impacts in other sports that produced injury), but it seems less likely than most of us were told (plenty of relevant impacts in other sports that didn't).

The issue with non-sport evidence, as I mentioned earlier, is that there's simply too small a sample to call anything statistically valid. We have plenty of evidence, but we have to do some analysis to draw conclusions. There simply aren't enough muggings of martial artists to get any statistically valid samples. Nonetheless, as with psychology and medical science, we can draw some information by combining case studies and related evidence from other sources (in some cases, from sport). I would dearly love to have some sport evidence about some techniques, but that evidence would be a bunch of broken bones, and that's not very sporting. So, I work with a combination of real-world use, seeing the reactions it causes in the dojo (the least trustworthy source, but information to work with, nonetheless), and injuries incurred in both cases.

 

[Hanzou]

That doesn't change the fact that it's a kick in Kung Fu. That's the point of my earlier post. We can't discount that link just because that's not the source for the user. It's still a valid Kung Fu technique that shows up in MMA.

It may be a kick in Kung Fu, but that doesn't mean that Jon Jones is performing Kung Fu when he uses that technique.

On that measure, yes. But the other may have other advantages - more power, faster, more vulnerable targets, sets up a second move, etc. Lower catchability is only one measure of a strike's effectiveness.

Jow Ga made no indication that the kick they do is deficient in any way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It may be a kick in Kung Fu, but that doesn't mean that Jon Jones is performing Kung Fu when he uses that technique.

That's a distinction that serves no purpose, Hanzou. If we look only at where the user got the information, we fail to recognize other potential sources. That Jon Jones got it from somewhere else doesn't change the fact that if someone looked at that particular technique in Kung Fu, they'd get a similar technique. This is the issue people have when looking at other arts and MMA, too. There are arts that are popular within MMA circles, so the techniques that cross many styles get attributed to those arts. That doesn't change the fact that those techniques are also found in other arts. Thus, when people say there's no Aikido in MMA, they're missing hip throws, arm drags, and other techniques that are found within Aikido. When they say the ground game is BJJ, they miss that many of the same techniques are (or at least WERE) found in Judo's ground game. We can't ask any art to be present only in what's unique to that art, or there would be scarcely any BJJ, Muay Thai, etc. in there, either.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Every one got told oblique kicks will put your knee straight out. Usually with that 9 pounds of force will break a knee rubbish.

If you saw the video of me of doing the kick on a heavy bag then you would see that the kick easily has more than 9 pounds of force. This is why I offered to show you the video so that you could see the reality of the kick. That way you don't have to base your knowledge on inaccurate stuff like that.

I love evidence that is not from sport. But nobody ever presents that either.

I have a video of me using the technique against a heavy bag laying down on the floor. Would the sound of the impact and the distance the bag moves from the kick be enough evidence as to how much force is generated? If that's not good enough, then you can always volunteer your knee for an actual knee break.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Jow Ga made no indication that the kick they do is deficient in any way.

I didn't think that I had to. Fighting techniques usually only have deficiency when you try to use them outside of the context and purpose of which there were developed. If I used the technique within it's limits and purpose then it doesn't have any deficiencies. If I try to kick you in the face with the kick then it's going to be extremely deficient.

If you actually took the time to understand the stuff you train then you would have a better understanding of kicks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would dearly love to have some sport evidence about some techniques, but that evidence would be a bunch of broken bones, and that's not very sporting. So, I work with a combination of real-world use, seeing the reactions it causes in the dojo (the least trustworthy source, but information to work with, nonetheless), and injuries incurred in both cases.

I solved the problem of this. People who don't believe can donate that body part so that a martial artist can use the technique at full force. If they don't think the technique is useless or that the knee won't break then they won't have anything to lose. It's a guaranteed win. But if they have the slightest chance that the knee will break or at a minimum they will be severely injured, then the logical assumption is that they won't allow the technique be performed on them. I'll even give them a chance to try to defend against it so they can say that "there was resistance"

I'm now accepting applications lol. I have a couple of kung fu techniques to demonstrate.

 

[Hanzou]

That's a distinction that serves no purpose, Hanzou. If we look only at where the user got the information, we fail to recognize other potential sources. That Jon Jones got it from somewhere else doesn't change the fact that if someone looked at that particular technique in Kung Fu, they'd get a similar technique. This is the issue people have when looking at other arts and MMA, too. There are arts that are popular within MMA circles, so the techniques that cross many styles get attributed to those arts. That doesn't change the fact that those techniques are also found in other arts. Thus, when people say there's no Aikido in MMA, they're missing hip throws, arm drags, and other techniques that are found within Aikido. When they say the ground game is BJJ, they miss that many of the same techniques are (or at least WERE) found in Judo's ground game. We can't ask any art to be present only in what's unique to that art, or there would be scarcely any BJJ, Muay Thai, etc. in there, either.

Well for starters we don't know where Jones got the kick. It's fully possible that he simply developed it on his own and it simply looks similar to a Kung fu or Karate kick.

Further, saying that the kick is "kung fu" is silly. Jon Jones has never trained Kung Fu his entire life. He's using MMA tactics and principles, thus any technique he's doing is coming from that sphere of influence. For example, I'm not suddenly doing Hung Gar (sp?) because I'm doing a reverse punch. I'm not suddenly doing Aikido because I'm performing a wrist lock.

 

[Flying Crane]

Here is the truth of the matter.

There is a huge amount of overlap, in terms of what techniques are found in one system to the next. They may not be exact or identical, but they are similar or variants. Punches,kicks, elbows, knees, joint locks and manipulations, throws, takedowns, immobilizations, grapplings, breaks, rips, pokes, etc. lots of systems have lots of these, in some shape or other. Very few techniques are found exclusively in only one system. That is a rarity.

It is a mistake to think this or that technique is from this or that system. It is also a mistake to think it is not.

A martial system really defines a training methodology, more than a body of techniques. I think many people focus on the techniques, and fail to recognize the training methodology underneath. And so we have arguments over whether Jon Jones is doing Kung fu or something else when he throws a certain kick. What he is doing with that kick depends on the context in which he learned it. But someone else doing the same, or a variant on the same kick, is doing it from whatever context he learned it.

People need to stop thinking about a martial system as techniques, and start recognizing it as the methodology used to learn and develop and train and practice skill with those techniques. It is mostly a shared body of techniques. But the methodology can be quite different from one system to another. That is where the real difference lies.

Once you can recognize that, most debates like this one become pretty meaningless.

 

[Hanzou]

I didn't think that I had to. Fighting techniques usually only have deficiency when you try to use them outside of the context and purpose of which there were developed. If I used the technique within it's limits and purpose then it doesn't have any deficiencies. If I try to kick you in the face with the kick then it's going to be extremely deficient.

If you actually took the time to understand the stuff you train then you would have a better understanding of kicks.

They day I see a real Kung Fu stylist enter a MMA tournament and perform well is the day I will buy the notion that Kung Fu striking is on par or better than MMA striking.

Until then.....

Again, even the Chinese themselves don't believe what you're saying here.

 

[Flying Crane]

They day I see a real Kung Fu stylist enter a MMA tournament and perform well is the day I will buy the notion that Kung Fu striking is on par or better than MMA striking.

Until then.....

Again, even the Chinese themselves don't believe what you're saying here.

What Chinese? The ones who practice traditional Kung fu? Those Chinese?

Oh I forgot, some Chinese have embraced MMA style competitions. Imagine that.

They are Chinese. They are not THE Chinese.

Seriously. What a nonsensical statement to make.

 

[kuniggety]

I studied TCMA for awhile. I really enjoyed it. It helped me develop my athleticism: calisthenic strength, flexibility, speed, etc. I built up reflexes and "feel" by doing sticky hands. However, you can look to the famous '70s match where 5 top kung fu fighters traveled to Bangkok and fought bare knuckle against 5 Muay Thai fighters. Everyone single one got KO'd or TKO'd by the MT stylists in the first round. They just weren't as brutal as they thought they were.

 

[drop bear]

If you saw the video of me of doing the kick on a heavy bag then you would see that the kick easily has more than 9 pounds of force. This is why I offered to show you the video so that you could see the reality of the kick. That way you don't have to base your knowledge on inaccurate stuff like that.

I have a video of me using the technique against a heavy bag laying down on the floor. Would the sound of the impact and the distance the bag moves from the kick be enough evidence as to how much force is generated? If that's not good enough, then you can always volunteer your knee for an actual knee break.

Sorry the 9 pounds of force is not true. Just a made up number.

A bag dosent hit back.

 

[Hanzou]

What Chinese? The ones who practice traditional Kung fu? Those Chinese?

Oh I forgot, some Chinese have embraced MMA style competitions. Imagine that.

They are Chinese. They are not THE Chinese.

Seriously. What a nonsensical statement to make.

The Chinese who have chosen MMA over their own traditional styles, leading to a massive decline in traditional CMAs in China.

And the Chinese who created their own system of MMA, yet chose to utilize western boxing over traditional CMA methods.

 

[drop bear]

That's a valid point about things like the knee kick. I know a knee kick can do damage (plenty of relevant similar impacts in other sports that produced injury), but it seems less likely than most of us were told (plenty of relevant impacts in other sports that didn't).

The issue with non-sport evidence, as I mentioned earlier, is that there's simply too small a sample to call anything statistically valid. We have plenty of evidence, but we have to do some analysis to draw conclusions. There simply aren't enough muggings of martial artists to get any statistically valid samples. Nonetheless, as with psychology and medical science, we can draw some information by combining case studies and related evidence from other sources (in some cases, from sport). I would dearly love to have some sport evidence about some techniques, but that evidence would be a bunch of broken bones, and that's not very sporting. So, I work with a combination of real-world use, seeing the reactions it causes in the dojo (the least trustworthy source, but information to work with, nonetheless), and injuries incurred in both cases.

That knee kick is thrown as hard as you can to do as much damage as you can.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well for starters we don't know where Jones got the kick. It's fully possible that he simply developed it on his own and it simply looks similar to a Kung fu or Karate kick.

Further, saying that the kick is "kung fu" is silly. Jon Jones has never trained Kung Fu his entire life. He's using MMA tactics and principles, thus any technique he's doing is coming from that sphere of influence. For example, I'm not suddenly doing Hung Gar (sp?) because I'm doing a reverse punch. I'm not suddenly doing Aikido because I'm performing a wrist lock.

Most of my strikes came to me directly through NGA, but NGA sourced them from elsewhere in the 1940's - most likely Shotokan, possibly with some Goju influence when it came to the US in the 1960's. It is not incorrect to say I use a Shotokan kick, simply because I didn't learn it there and I know it as NGA's Rear Leg Round Kick. If the same kick exists in Goju, it would not be incorrect for a student of that style to say, "Ah! That's our ____ kick!" It is all three of those kicks, perhaps with minor variations.

 

[Flying Crane]

The Chinese who have chosen MMA over their own traditional styles, leading to a massive decline in traditional CMAs in China.

And the Chinese who created their own system of MMA, yet chose to utilize western boxing over traditional CMA methods.

Yup, there are some Chinese who are doing that, I agree.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is the truth of the matter.

There is a huge amount of overlap, in terms of what techniques are found in one system to the next. They may not be exact or identical, but they are similar or variants. Punches,kicks, elbows, knees, joint locks and manipulations, throws, takedowns, immobilizations, grapplings, breaks, rips, pokes, etc. lots of systems have lots of these, in some shape or other. Very few techniques are found exclusively in only one system. That is a rarity.

It is a mistake to think this or that technique is from this or that system. It is also a mistake to think it is not.

A martial system really defines a training methodology, more than a body of techniques. I think many people focus on the techniques, and fail to recognize the training methodology underneath. And so we have arguments over whether Jon Jones is doing Kung fu or something else when he throws a certain kick. What he is doing with that kick depends on the context in which he learned it. But someone else doing the same, or a variant on the same kick, is doing it from whatever context he learned it.

People need to stop thinking about a martial system as techniques, and start recognizing it as the methodology used to learn and develop and train and practice skill with those techniques. It is mostly a shared body of techniques. But the methodology can be quite different from one system to another. That is where the real difference lies.

Once you can recognize that, most debates like this one become pretty meaningless.

Sometime, I'd like to start a separate thread to dig into this a bit. You and I have a different view of what a system is, what defines it. We would be far OT here, but I think it would be an interesting discussion.

 

[Hanzou]

Yup, there are some Chinese who are doing that, I agree.

Kung Fu’s Identity Crisis - Roads & Kingdoms
Why Kung Fu Masters Refuse to Teach | VICE Sports
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/23/world/asia/hong-kong-kung-fu.html?_r=0

The main reason this is happening is because people (rightfully) believe that spending ten years to learn how to kick or punch properly is nonsense. This is especially true when you have equal methods where you can learn how to fight far more quickly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That knee kick is thrown as hard as you can to do as much damage as you can.

Agreed. If I only deliver 9 lbs of force, that's unlikely to damage the knee, with the possible exception of a knee in a very compromised position (locked out, awkward weight transfer). I suspect that's where the number came from - if it has any accuracy at all - a worst-case scenario for the knee. It would take considerably more force to do more than strain the knee.