Awesome Kung Fu Kick used in MMA

[Hanzou]

I thought you were asserting that MMA's growth and the incursion of WMA (like boxing) was responsible for much of the decline. Did I misunderstand you?

That's definitely part of it. There's definitely other factors at play, but it's pretty obvious that MMA is being chosen over TMAs for a variety of reasons especially among the younger generation.

Throughout those articles a fairly common theme were older martial artists saying that the younger generation preferred MMA styles over the rigors of of TMAs.

 

[drop bear]

That's definitely part of it. There's definitely other factors at play, but it's pretty obvious that MMA is being chosen over TMAs for a variety of reasons especially among the younger generation.

Throughout those articles a fairly common theme were older martial artists saying that the younger generation preferred MMA styles over the rigors of of TMAs.

Which is silly because all martial arts done diligently is rigorous

 

[JowGaWolf]

Then you need better sparring partners.

I need better sparring partners because I can punch someone in the face? I actually sparred against someone who is a better sparring partner than the other instructor at my school. I punched that guy under his jaw with a rising jab and popped his head like a pez dispenser, with a punch that was literally 10% power. That guy was so shocked with that punch that it was the first thing he talked about after sparring about how he got punched upward under the jaw. By the way the technique that I used is part of a technique used in drunken boxing.

I'm sure I'll meet someone else who is better than that guy and he'll get a taste of kung fu too.

 

[drop bear]

I need better sparring partners because I can punch someone in the face? I actually sparred against someone who is a better sparring partner than the other instructor at my school. I punched that guy under his jaw with a rising jab and popped his head like a pez dispenser, with a punch that was literally 10% power. That guy was so shocked with that punch that it was the first thing he talked about after sparring about how he got punched upward under the jaw. By the way the technique that I used is part of a technique used in drunken boxing.

I'm sure I'll meet someone else who is better than that guy and he'll get a taste of kung fu too.

Sorry my mistake. Looks like you have your sparring partners handled.

 

[Hanzou]

Which is silly because all martial arts done diligently is rigorous

Agreed. The problem is that you got these TMA instructors forcing people to do horse stances over and over again for months while more modern styles get right to the good stuff. So obviously the people are going to choose the more modern style over a style trapped in traditional mumbo-jumbo.

 

[Hanzou]

Adaptation isn't a sign of a dying art. It's a sign of an art that can live. To be effective, an art should continue to grow after inception. Failure to do so is often based on a logical fallacy. I've forgotten the term for it, but it's an assumption that the progenitor was somehow a genius beyond the ken of those now practicing the art, so his approach must be the only right approach to the art. Nearly every art I know of has seen changes in my lifetime - adding techniques, dropping techniques, adopting suitable techniques from other arts where the principles applied fit within the framework, etc.

For purists, adaptation may seem to be death of an art, but that IMO is a misunderstanding of what defines an art.

Well yes I'm talking about the purists here. In quite a few of those articles the traditionalists made it pretty clear that they were willing to let their style go extinct instead of modernizing their system to draw in fresh students.

There's quite a few TMA practicioners outside of Asia who feel the same way. I've assisted in Bjj seminars where TMA people were visibly upset that we were showing Bjj to their stufents. It's like they were surrendering to reality. It was amusing and sad at the same time.

 

[Hanzou]

Once again your ignorance.
Shaolin Tagou Martial Arts School | Learn Kung Fu in China
"Shaolin Temple Tagou Martial Arts School (or Shaolin Tagou Wushu School) is the best and the biggest kung fu academy in China. teaching students from around the world in all different styles of Chinese Martial Arts. Whether you are a beginner or an experienced martial artist, whether you want to stay for a month or a year – we kindly invite you to learn Kung Fu from our highly distinguished Shaolin Masters."

All of the following styles of Chinese Kung Fu are part of our weekly training schedule. This is what is taught at the school Kung Fu Styles | Shaolin Tagou Martial Arts School

hmmm. Looks like those students were there soley for bjj. They must have picked up the Kung fu techniques like you picked up the "oblique kick" technique. They just saw someone do and said "Hey I can figure this out" yep. I learned in 2 days.

Did you miss the Kung Fu training page where they listed all of the styles they taught there? Look under "actual fighting" and it's all MMA-based stuff including Boxing, grappling, and kickboxing.

Perhaps more amusing, the MMA styles are listed under "Actual Fighting".

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. The problem is that you got these TMA instructors forcing people to do horse stances over and over again for months while more modern styles get right to the good stuff. So obviously the people are going to choose the more modern style over a style trapped in traditional mumbo-jumbo.

We do crap grindy stuff. Depends what they want to do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sorry my mistake. Looks like you have your sparring partners handled.

You just need to go a few rounds with someone that actually knows how to fight using kung fu. I think you would have a different perspective about a lot of things especially in the realms of techniques.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Did you miss the Kung Fu training page where they listed all of the styles they taught there? Look under "actual fighting" and it's all MMA-based stuff including Boxing, grappling, and kickboxing.

Perhaps more amusing, the MMA styles are listed under "Actual Fighting".

Sanda is not an MMA style.
Boxing is not an MMA style
Taekwondo is not an MMA style
Wrestling is not an MMA style

These are all systems that exist without MMA. MMA could not exist without these systems.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's definitely part of it. There's definitely other factors at play, but it's pretty obvious that MMA is being chosen over TMAs for a variety of reasons especially among the younger generation.

Throughout those articles a fairly common theme were older martial artists saying that the younger generation preferred MMA styles over the rigors of of TMAs.

That's not unique to CMA. Boxing is losing interest to MMA, Karate is losing interest to MMA, and I suspect so is Judo. MMA is the cool and exciting thing right now, so a lot of younger folks are going that route. That doesn't really speak to effectiveness so much as marketing. We both know most people don't choose where to train because of actual effectiveness - most aren't educated in the necessary areas to judge that properly. They are choosing based on perceived effectiveness or simply because it's what they want to do.

 

[Phobius]

Did you miss the Kung Fu training page where they listed all of the styles they taught there? Look under "actual fighting" and it's all MMA-based stuff including Boxing, grappling, and kickboxing.

Perhaps more amusing, the MMA styles are listed under "Actual Fighting".

MMA styles? You mean Sanda, Wrestling, Taekwondo, boxing & fighting or self defense? Eastern view on boxing is not really what you think it is. Besides this is a school that is intended to attract international students.

And who says TMA is not the ones currently being successful? Problem is that the world in general has a decline in sport activities. Kids nowadays really do not want to leave their homes/computers/phones. Increased average population weight has become a national concern in many countries.

Now all evidence I have is pointing to MMA not really attracting students in any growing fashion. UFC made it popular and as such it has grown but mostly the popularity seems to create forum/youtube warriors. People that can dictate the efficiency of techniques or arts without ever spending a single second doing any of it.

TMAs has a decline because there was a huge boom in the 1980-2000 or somewhere around that timeframe for many countries. Now there is a decline as things are shifting back to what should be a more normal level.

As for the club where I train, things are going better than great. Problem now is that there is a lack of adults that dedicates themselves to an art with the knowledge that they will spend rest of their life poor on an instructor salary. As such with lack of instructors there is a problem with growth. (Those that have experience do not always have the time to teach kids)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well yes I'm talking about the purists here. In quite a few of those articles the traditionalists made it pretty clear that they were willing to let their style go extinct instead of modernizing their system to draw in fresh students.

There's quite a few TMA practicioners outside of Asia who feel the same way. I've assisted in Bjj seminars where TMA people were visibly upset that we were showing Bjj to their stufents. It's like they were surrendering to reality. It was amusing and sad at the same time.

Yeah, that exists in a portion of the MA population everywhere. It probably shows up in boxing gyms, too. Purists like things the way they are (or, at least, the way they've romanticized them to be). I know really good instructors who won't show something to their students unless it comes from higher in the hierarchy. I've never been a very good purist.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, there is now a generation of young people who grew up on a diet of MMA, and believes that is what a fighting method should look like. These people can't conceive of the idea that something might look different, might be done different, and still be very effective.

Some of those people are here in the forums.

Given that example, it is not surprising if the younger generations drift in that direction. And that's fine, people can do whatever they want. I have no misgivings about what i do, and whatever others think about it really doesn't mean much to me when all is said and done.

I just wonder what are people trying to accomplish, when they come on here and try to paint whole categories of systems, or certain specific systems, as worthless? What do they think is actually going to come of such a debate?

Maybe Hanzou can speak up on that question.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's not unique to CMA. Boxing is losing interest to MMA, Karate is losing interest to MMA, and I suspect so is Judo. MMA is the cool and exciting thing right now, so a lot of younger folks are going that route. That doesn't really speak to effectiveness so much as marketing. We both know most people don't choose where to train because of actual effectiveness - most aren't educated in the necessary areas to judge that properly. They are choosing based on perceived effectiveness or simply because it's what they want to do.

Correct. Kung Fu, Wrestling, Boxing, Karate have all had their time in the spotlight of popularity. Bruce Lee, Vision Quest, Rocky, Karate Kid, American Ninja, Blood Sport and other movies hyped up these fighting systems and made the fighting systems popular. MMA, UFC, and BJJ are now in the spot light where people join just clubs that say "we teach, mma, ufc, and Bjj." because of the popularity. When the popularity dies then so will the enrollment at these places. Then it'll be back to where it was before where only people who have passion for it are training it.

Even today people take BJJ thinking that they are going to be able to beat anyone up, simply because they know BJJ. Kung Fu, Karate, and Taekwondo went through this phase with people thinking; "Yeah I can fight because I know this system. " Then reality hit and they learn that it's not what you know , but the ability to use what you know that makes you a proficient fighter of the system you train in.

We both know most people don't choose where to train because of actual effectiveness - most aren't educated in the necessary areas to judge that properly.

I've experienced this first hand. I told a parent that her son can learn to Kung Fu so he can protect himself. She said she only wants her son to take Karate so he can learn discipline.

 

[Hanzou]

Sanda is not an MMA style.
Boxing is not an MMA style
Taekwondo is not an MMA style
Wrestling is not an MMA style

These are all systems that exist without MMA. MMA could not exist without these systems.

UFC® Martial Arts Styles - Fighters Train in Multiple Disciplines

 

[Hanzou]

That's not unique to CMA. Boxing is losing interest to MMA, Karate is losing interest to MMA, and I suspect so is Judo. MMA is the cool and exciting thing right now, so a lot of younger folks are going that route. That doesn't really speak to effectiveness so much as marketing. We both know most people don't choose where to train because of actual effectiveness - most aren't educated in the necessary areas to judge that properly. They are choosing based on perceived effectiveness or simply because it's what they want to do.

No argument there. The interesting thing about Judo is that while its popularity is fading, you will find Judo programs within Bjj gyms, or you'll see former Judo clubs tacking on Bjj in order to gain more students. Same applies to Boxing and some MMA gyms. I think what you're seeing with those systems is that while their individual schools are fading, they're being placed in more popular MMA or Bjj programs. The same isn't happening for Kung Fu or Karate, though I have seen a few Kung Fu and Karate dojos tack on Bjj and MMA programs right before they go under.

You are also correct that many are choosing MMA or similar styles because of perceived effectiveness. MMA and specifically the UFC has had a profound impact on MA culture where people were raised entirely on the notion that MMA is the testing ground of MA effectiveness. If it doesn't appear in MMA, then its not worth learning. I'm not going to say whether that perception is right or wrong, but to deny its obvious impact would be crazy.

 

[Hanzou]

MMA styles? You mean Sanda, Wrestling, Taekwondo, boxing & fighting or self defense? Eastern view on boxing is not really what you think it is. Besides this is a school that is intended to attract international students.

See above.

And who says TMA is not the ones currently being successful? Problem is that the world in general has a decline in sport activities. Kids nowadays really do not want to leave their homes/computers/phones. Increased average population weight has become a national concern in many countries.

Now all evidence I have is pointing to MMA not really attracting students in any growing fashion. UFC made it popular and as such it has grown but mostly the popularity seems to create forum/youtube warriors. People that can dictate the efficiency of techniques or arts without ever spending a single second doing any of it.

You can find numerous articles about the rapid popularity and growth of MMA and numerous articles about the decline of TMAs. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm merely reporting what people are saying.

As for personal experience, there's MMA and Bjj gyms all over the US these days. That wasn't the case 20 years ago. In fact, I would argue that its actually harder to find a decent Karate or Kung Fu school in a city than it is to find a decent Bjj or MMA school.

However TKD is everywhere.

TMAs has a decline because there was a huge boom in the 1980-2000 or somewhere around that timeframe for many countries. Now there is a decline as things are shifting back to what should be a more normal level.

Why do you think that decline took place? Could it have been a certain fighting event in the mid-90s, and the rise of MMA?

Check out this article, you may find it interesting;

Where have all the martial artists gone? Should we blame MMA?

 

[Hanzou]

Well, there is now a generation of young people who grew up on a diet of MMA, and believes that is what a fighting method should look like. These people can't conceive of the idea that something might look different, might be done different, and still be very effective.

Some of those people are here in the forums.

Given that example, it is not surprising if the younger generations drift in that direction. And that's fine, people can do whatever they want. I have no misgivings about what i do, and whatever others think about it really doesn't mean much to me when all is said and done.

I just wonder what are people trying to accomplish, when they come on here and try to paint whole categories of systems, or certain specific systems, as worthless? What do they think is actually going to come of such a debate?

Maybe Hanzou can speak up on that question.

Where did I say that your style is worthless? I'm simply implying that I understand why a potential martial arts practitioner would choose MMA or a MMA style over White Crane or Jow Ga even in China or Japan.

Take it from Valerie Ng, a 20-year-old college student in Hong Kong, who says she prefers Thai boxing because it is “attractive and charming” and does not take as long to master. She noted that kung fu masters often do not have defined muscles and that some of them look, well, a little chubby.

“You can see how fierce Thai boxing is from watching professional matches,” she said. “But I rarely see such competition for kung fu, which makes me wonder whether those kung fu masters really are good at fighting or they just claim to be,” she said.

That really says it all doesn't it?

BTW, that came from this article that you supposedly read: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/23/world/asia/hong-kong-kung-fu.html?_r=0

 

[Flying Crane]

Where did I say that your style is worthless? I'm simply implying that I understand why a potential martial arts practitioner would choose MMA or a MMA style over White Crane or Jow Ga even in China or Japan.

1. Liar.
2. What is you point in the constant and repeated attacks on everything that isn't MMA?

Still waiting for an answer.