Awesome Kung Fu Kick used in MMA

[Hanzou]

which misses the entire point. It's not about jabs, shuffles punches, and heel kicks, it's how it's done. Heel kicks in kung fu are not the same heel kicks that are done in kickboxing.
This is a kick boxing front heel kick. A kung fu heel kick in kung fu isn't taught like this. This would be more like a thrust kick in kick in Kung fu The mechanics of the kick is different.

This is a front heel kick from Wing Chun

In Jow Ga the front heel kick is is done differently than both kickboxing and Wing Chun. For us our front heel kick is like the kick at 7:30

You may think that these kicks are the same but they aren't.

Which isn't the point that I was making. My point is that while Kung Fu may have its own crazy method of doing things, that doesn't change the fact that when the rubber meets the road they're looking like sloppy kickboxers and very unlike the forms from which they're supposed to be pulling their techniques from. So essentially you're going in a roundabout way in order to reach the same destination versus someone simply going in a straight line (and coming out worse as a result).In the end, would you rather look like the sloppy kickboxer, or the crisp kickboxer?

The choice is pretty clear among the MMA crowd who actively seeks the most effectve striking and grappling techniques for their sport, and they seemingly aren't pulling from traditional CMA.

 

[Hanzou]

Obviously you are talking sport. Which I do not do and will not do. If your speaking in a sport arena...then yes. Some will look the same. But why waste your time in a sport art? If you enjoy it great...but none of them will look the same in a real situation.

Experience will teach you that.

I don't do sport martial arts so, I will no longer comment on them.

You do know that this thread is about MMA right? You do know that MMA is a sport right?

 

[JowGaWolf]

An MMA fighter is training specifically to handle trained MMA fighters and damned well ought to be better at that than I am, and better than Hanzou is. Hanzou is probably better equipped to deal with an MMA fighter than me because he is in BJJ (which covers most of the ground work the MMA guy would use, so better familiarity) and has worked out with more MMA fighters.

Only if the MMA fighter is actually better than you. Not all MMA fighters are actually good at it even if they are trained.
These guys are trained MMA fighters. Here's a video of someone's son having their first MMA fight. It may or may not be the other guy's first fight. 3rd and 4th fights don't look any different. A person may or may not learn the lessons from the previous fights.

Here's an adult fight

So not everyone is a top of the line MMA fighter. Not all MMA fighters who train MMA have the capability of performing at a professional level. How many people train and play football, but aren't good enough to make it to the Pros? Fighting is just like that. Everyone that trains MMA isn't going to be at that professional level that. Not everyone that trains MMA or BJJ have the ability to perform at that level.

 

[Flying Crane]

While I'm unfamiliar with the psuedo-science principles of white crane Kung Fu, I am familiar with good striking versus poor striking.

There's a reason why people who make a living fighting people avoid those outmoded principles and embrace more modern ones backed by actual evidence and common sense. BTW, this includes the Chinese themselves who abandoned traditional Chinese martial arts for western boxing when they created Chinese MMA.

Yup, there is a reason. They get acceptable results more quickly. People interested in sports fighting have a limited number of years to have an active career, so they need to get a moving. They don't have time to invest in a method that yields results that are better than acceptable, because those methods do take more time and more thought and, yes, they are more tricky and often people never really grasp them.

Poor chaps like you are in the downstream of it, and never even understand that other approaches exist, how they work, and that they can yield better results. It's because your predecessors made a calculated decision that "good enough" is good enough. And given the context of what is desired in sports fighting, it was the right decision.

But the result is that you come on here and repeatedly look like an idiot because you go on and on about stuff for which you are ignorant.

You should really limit your discussions to BJJ because that is the one field where you apparently have some actual knowledge. I say "apparently" because I have minimal knowledge of BJJ, so I can't actually assess if you know anything or not. You'll also notice, if you are perceptive, which I doubt, that I don't come on here and engage in discussions about BJJ. It's because I know that I don't know much about it. I'm smart enough to recognize that, and to not try to present myself as an expert in something I am not.

You, unfortunately, lack even that level of intelligence.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

You do know that this thread is about MMA right? You do know that MMA is a sport right?

Ya think...what you dont know is that the actual forms and applications are completely different in there execution. Thats why the points you are making show that you are experienced in sport but not reality. At least from my perspective. I could be wrong but, I dont think so.

And you said it best ...MMA. is a sport. Which makes it a sport based competition...not an art or even self defense. A sport.

Most traditional arts were not based on sport. War, war is where they found their creation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Only if the MMA fighter is actually better than you. Not all MMA fighters are actually good at it even if they are trained.
These guys are trained MMA fighters. Here's a video of someone's son having their first MMA fight. It may or may not be the other guy's first fight. 3rd and 4th fights don't look any different. A person may or may not learn the lessons from the previous fights.

Here's an adult fight

So not everyone is a top of the line MMA fighter. Not all MMA fighters who train MMA have the capability of performing at a professional level. How many people train and play football, but aren't good enough to make it to the Pros? Fighting is just like that. Everyone that trains MMA isn't going to be at that professional level that. Not everyone that trains MMA or BJJ have the ability to perform at that level.

In all cases of these comparisons, I assume a similar level of training and physical ability (except that I allow that MMA fighters generally have a higher fitness level than those casually training in MA, whatever our focus).

 

[JowGaWolf]

So essentially you're going in a roundabout way in order to reach the same destination versus someone simply going in a straight line (and coming out worse as a result).In the end, would you rather look like the sloppy kickboxer, or the crisp kickboxer?

This is what you fail to understand. It's not a round about way. It's a different kick and it's used differently than the front kick of a kick boxer. I can generate enough power with that "sloppy front kick" to break a rib. I can also throw that "sloppy front kick" in a situation where it would be impossible to throw the kickboxer's front kick.

I have shown multiple videos of me throwing this type of kick effectively land it. I'm better with this type of kick than the white crane guy sparring video and it doesn't look sloppy.

The choice is pretty clear among the MMA crowd who actively seeks the most effectve striking and grappling techniques for their sport, and they seemingly aren't pulling from traditional CMA

I put up pictures of people doing the shin kick technique long before MMA and UFC was even a distant idea and marketing campaign.

The technique can be found in CMA forms that older than 200 years. How old is MMA? How old is UFC. Many of us are older than that. So the MMA guys aren't just pulling these kicking techniques from thin air. Just because you see an MMA do a new kick to MMA doesn't mean that the kick is actually something new and born from MMA.

 

[Hanzou]

Yup, there is a reason. They get acceptable results more quickly. People interested in sports fighting have a limited number of years to have an active career, so they need to get a moving. They don't have time to invest in a method that yields results that are better than acceptable, because those methods do take more time and more thought and, yes, they are more tricky and often people never really grasp them.

And yet no evidence exists to show that an extended learning curve within external CMA styles yields any benefit over other styles. Again that entire argument is pseudo science conjured up by the Chinese (though they aren't alone) peddling their martial arts to ignorant western enthusiasts. A front kick is just a front kick. That front kick doesn't become more "magical" because it took you ten years longer to perfect it.

Poor chaps like you are in the downstream of it, and never even understand that other approaches exist, how they work, and that they can yield better results. It's because your predecessors made a calculated decision that "good enough" is good enough. And given the context of what is desired in sports fighting, it was the right decision.

What a hilarious assumption. Given that my entire MA career is made up of some level of cross-training, I have no choice but to understand other approaches. In fact I have a pretty extensive history in striking systems (including my current practice of boxing and MMA), which is why I know piss-poor striking when I see it.

One thing that I do find interesting is how many of those traditional CMAs were originally designed for wars and revolutions, so by design they had to be learned quickly, but suddenly when they arrived in the west it took years (sometimes decades) to learn how to properly throw a punch.

Again, a fascinating development....

But the result is that you come on here and repeatedly look like an idiot because you go on and on about stuff for which you are ignorant.

You should really limit your discussions to BJJ because that is the one field where you apparently have some actual knowledge. I say "apparently" because I have minimal knowledge of BJJ, so I can't actually assess if you know anything or not. You'll also notice, if you are perceptive, which I doubt, that I don't come on here and engage in discussions about BJJ. It's because I know that I don't know much about it. I'm smart enough to recognize that, and to not try to present myself as an expert in something I am not.

You, unfortunately, lack even that level of intelligence.

Well in case you weren't paying attention, this is about MMA, from which Bjj is a huge part of.

Kung fu? Not so much.

 

[Flying Crane]

And yet no evidence exists to show that an extended learning curve within external CMA styles yields any benefit over other styles. Again that entire argument is pseudo science conjured up by the Chinese (though they aren't alone) peddling their martial arts to ignorant western enthusiasts. A front kick is just a front kick. That front kick doesn't become more "magical" because it took you ten years longer to perfect it.



What a hilarious assumption. Given that my entire MA career is made up of some level of cross-training, I have no choice but to understand other approaches. In fact I have a pretty extensive history in striking systems (including my current practice of boxing and MMA), which is why I know piss-poor striking when I see it.

One thing that I do find interesting is how many of those traditional CMAs were originally designed for wars and revolutions, so by design they had to be learned quickly, but suddenly when they arrived in the west it took years (sometimes decades) to learn how to properly throw a punch.

Again, a fascinating development....



Well in case you weren't paying attention, this is about MMA, from which Bjj is a huge part of.

Kung fu? Not so much.

Wallow in your ignorance. I remember your early discussions about your experience with striking methods. I also remember it being clear to me that either you had poor instruction, or the method was not a good match for you. Meaning: you would be better served doing something else. I remember pointing that out to you.

The thread is about traditional kung fu technique seen in MMA. I really don't care what MMA does, but you just can't help yourself from taking cheap and insulting shots at Chinese martial arts. So I simply pointed out that, once again, you are wrong.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In all cases of these comparisons, I assume a similar level of training and physical ability (except that I allow that MMA fighters generally have a higher fitness level than those casually training in MA, whatever our focus).

This is definitely true, I find that cardio endurance is lacking for most people who casually train in MA. Sometimes I think the desire to be efficient with movement and technique causes us to forget to pay attention to our cardio. Then there's that time issue that most classes are an hour long which in honesty is short in terms of training, so if anything is going to be cut out it'll be the cardio.

My first time sparring with a Sanda school was an eye opener for me on just how bad our school neglected our cardio.

 

[Hanzou]

This is what you fail to understand. It's not a round about way. It's a different kick and it's used differently than the front kick of a kick boxer. I can generate enough power with that "sloppy front kick" to break a rib. I can also throw that "sloppy front kick" in a situation where it would be impossible to throw the kickboxer's front kick.

Are we really going to pretend that similar kicks don't exist in other striking systems? Are we seriously going to pretend that Wing Chun or your style doesn't have a kick similar to the kick thrown by the kick boxer?

When I said "roundabout way" I'm talking about the time in which it takes for a person to gain proficiency in a MA system. If the goal is to throw effective kicks and punches and we have a MT practicioner and a Kung Fu practicioner, who do you think will reach proficiency more quickly? It's more than likely going to be the MT practicioner.

Hence roundabout way to the destination versus the straight line.

I put up pictures of people doing the shin kick technique long before MMA and UFC was even a distant idea and marketing campaign.

And Shin kicks have existed in Muay Thai for centuries. I'm simply not seeing your point here. Kung Fu doesn't have a monopoly on shin or oblique kicks.

The technique can be found in CMA forms that older than 200 years. How old is MMA? How old is UFC. Many of us are older than that. So the MMA guys aren't just pulling these kicking techniques from thin air. Just because you see an MMA do a new kick to MMA doesn't mean that the kick is actually something new and born from MMA.

Again, CMA isn't the only source of striking arts known to man. A wonderful source for sure, but far from the only one. However for the sake of argument, even if a MMA fighter or coach flipped through some old CMA book and found that strike, it was the MMA method that applied the technique.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To the original point in the thread, I think there is some inherent bias against some arts when viewing MMA derivations. It doesn't much matter whether the kick was originally derived from Muay Thai or Kung Fu - it exists in both, and the fact that it shows up in MMA fights is evidence that the particular strike works in that setting. When we watch MMA, we're more likely to say, "That's Muay Thai", but if we saw someone wearing a traditional CMA uniform doing it, we'd probably say, "That's Kung Fu." Since it's in both, we are reasonably right in both cases, though the people in each example could reasonably have sourced it from the other art.

The same goes for folks who say nothing of Aikido makes it in (there's plenty I see in MMA that's probably sourced from Judo but which also exists in Aikido). I've heard people make the same mistake when talking about ground work, hearing them say nearly all of the ground work is BJJ and not seeing the Judo (many of the techniques are also found in Judo). No art or style finds all of its traditional moves making it into MMA, not even the styles that seem to be most representative (BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc.). Those arts seem to have translated the best into that format (I'll leave the argument as to why for other threads - not the point here), but most arts can find some of "their" techniques and principles showing up in MMA, because many of those techniques show up in multiple arts. In fact, there's a reasonable argument that the techniques showing up in multiple arts makes them more likely to show up in MMA.

 

[Hanzou]

Wallow in your ignorance. I remember your early discussions about your experience with striking methods. I also remember it being clear to me that either you had poor instruction, or the method was not a good match for you. Meaning: you would be better served doing something else. I remember pointing that out to you.

Ah yes, my 8 years of Shotokan karate from which I earned the rank of shodan.

However in the years since I left karate I've also taken up boxing, MMA, and an extremely brief stint of TSD. I still practice boxing, and I occasionally cross train with MMA guys.

The thread is about traditional kung fu technique seen in MMA. I really don't care what MMA does, but you just can't help yourself from taking cheap and insulting shots at Chinese martial arts. So I simply pointed out that, once again, you are wrong.

Since Kung Fu is all but nonexistent in MMA, this IS a MMA thread.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is definitely true, I find that cardio endurance is lacking for most people who casually train in MA. Sometimes I think the desire to be efficient with movement and technique causes us to forget to pay attention to our cardio. Then there's that time issue that most classes are an hour long which in honesty is short in terms of training, so if anything is going to be cut out it'll be the cardio.

My first time sparring with a Sanda school was an eye opener for me on just how bad our school neglected our cardio.

Very true, and this is where a professional competitor excels. A professional athlete needs to be in peak physical condition in order to succeed. And that conditioning very often can make up for other deficiencies.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ah yes, my 8 years of Shotokan karate from which I earned the rank of shodan.

However in the years since I left karate I've also taken up boxing, MMA, and an extremely brief stint of TSD. I still practice boxing, and I occasionally cross train with MMA guys.



Since Kung Fu is all but nonexistent in MMA, this IS a MMA thread.

None of which impresses me, to be honest.

But if those are things that you feel better meet your needs, well I'm glad to see you took my advice.

 

[Hanzou]

To the original point in the thread, I think there is some inherent bias against some arts when viewing MMA derivations. It doesn't much matter whether the kick was originally derived from Muay Thai or Kung Fu - it exists in both, and the fact that it shows up in MMA fights is evidence that the particular strike works in that setting. When we watch MMA, we're more likely to say, "That's Muay Thai", but if we saw someone wearing a traditional CMA uniform doing it, we'd probably say, "That's Kung Fu." Since it's in both, we are reasonably right in both cases, though the people in each example could reasonably have sourced it from the other art.

The same goes for folks who say nothing of Aikido makes it in (there's plenty I see in MMA that's probably sourced from Judo but which also exists in Aikido). I've heard people make the same mistake when talking about ground work, hearing them say nearly all of the ground work is BJJ and not seeing the Judo (many of the techniques are also found in Judo). No art or style finds all of its traditional moves making it into MMA, not even the styles that seem to be most representative (BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc.). Those arts seem to have translated the best into that format (I'll leave the argument as to why for other threads - not the point here), but most arts can find some of "their" techniques and principles showing up in MMA, because many of those techniques show up in multiple arts. In fact, there's a reasonable argument that the techniques showing up in multiple arts makes them more likely to show up in MMA.

Well if you're seeing that kick being performed in a MMA setting, its more than likely coming from a kickboxing source. In fact, MMA coaches have been known to discourage more exotic looking kicks from non MMA styles like the CMA styles. There's a fairly hilarious video of Wing Chun practicioner Shawn Obasi having a mental breakdown because a MMA coach told him to stop throwing Wing Chun kicks because they were viewed as ineffective compared to the Muay Thai or TKD kicks found in standard MMA.

In any case, I've practiced the kick in OP before. However, when I did the kick I was utilizing my Shotokan background, not some ancient Chinese source that I never trained in.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Are we really going to pretend that similar kicks don't exist in other striking systems? Are we seriously going to pretend that Wing Chun or your style doesn't have a kick similar to the kick thrown by the kick boxer?

You are still missing the point. I'm talking about the "sloppy" heel kick that you pointed out in the White Crane sparring video. My only reason for posting the kick shown by the kickboxer is to show that even though all of those are front heel kicks, they are not the same and that the kick will differ with systems. Traditionally many kung fu systems don't have that kickboxer's front kick because it's over extended which makes it easier to counter or to pull the kicking leg (This goes back to the importance of root).

Just so you know it happens outside of demo and training

This is why you don't see the kickboxer's heel kick in many CMAs. You have to remember that many CMAs are self-defense based so in that context, if I catch your kickboxer's heel kick then I'm not going to sweep you. I'm going to kick the knee of your standing leg so I can try to end the fight as soon as possible. If I'm a jerk then I'm going to kick you in the groin before I kick your knee.

When I said "roundabout way" I'm talking about the time in which it takes for a person to gain proficiency in a MA system.

Everything takes time. Learning how to sing takes time unless you use autotune. But if you want your want to have an Autotune fighting system then be my guess go for it. If you truly want to be good at something then you'll need to put in the time and effort that's required to be good at it. So if Kung Fu takes longer to learn to be good at it then so be it. A person will just have to do what's required to be good at it. If they just want bits and pieces then they can Autotune their training and have gaps in their understanding.

If the goal is to throw effective kicks and punches and we have a MT practicioner and a Kung Fu practicioner, who do you think will reach proficiency more quickly?

Being proficient isn't a race. It took me longer to learn how to jab using Jow Ga techniques then it took my brother to learn Muay Thai jab techniques. But like I said, it's not race. If Jow Ga jab techniques take longer to learn then so be it. Even though my brother learned his Muay Thai jab faster than I learned my Jow Ga jab, my Jow Ga jab is actually stronger than his jab. His jab is general and focuses on hitting the general areas of the face and the body. My is specific, I'm trying to hit specific spots on the face and the head. I can throw my jab from a leaning position or kneeling position. I can throw my jab will blocking at the same time. I can throw my jab in a way that it shaves and redirects your punch while allowing my punch to travel straight. I can jab with a horizontal fist or a vertical fist. My jab can be used downward or horizontally or upward.
So now to your question about proficiency? When the Muay Thai fighter reaches proficiency of the Jab before the Kung Fu practictioner. At what level of proficiency is he truly at.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Again, CMA isn't the only source of striking arts known to man. A wonderful source for sure, but far from the only one. However for the sake of argument, even if a MMA fighter or coach flipped through some old CMA book and found that strike, it was the MMA method that applied the technique.

In here is my problem and the reason I made the thread in the first place. The "MMA method." just because someone does a technique in MMA doesn't mean it's "The MMA Method"

 

[Hanzou]

You are still missing the point. I'm talking about the "sloppy" heel kick that you pointed out in the White Crane sparring video. My only reason for posting the kick shown by the kickboxer is to show that even though all of those are front heel kicks, they are not the same and that the kick will differ with systems. Traditionally many kung fu systems don't have that kickboxer's front kick because it's over extended which makes it easier to counter or to pull the kicking leg (This goes back to the importance of root).

Just so you know it happens outside of demo and training

This is why you don't see the kickboxer's heel kick in many CMAs. You have to remember that many CMAs are self-defense based so in that context, if I catch your kickboxer's heel kick then I'm not going to sweep you. I'm going to kick the knee of your standing leg so I can try to end the fight as soon as possible. If I'm a jerk then I'm going to kick you in the groin before I kick your knee.

Everything takes time. Learning how to sing takes time unless you use autotune. But if you want your want to have an Autotune fighting system then be my guess go for it. If you truly want to be good at something then you'll need to put in the time and effort that's required to be good at it. So if Kung Fu takes longer to learn to be good at it then so be it. A person will just have to do what's required to be good at it. If they just want bits and pieces then they can Autotune their training and have gaps in their understanding.

Being proficient isn't a race. It took me longer to learn how to jab using Jow Ga techniques then it took my brother to learn Muay Thai jab techniques. But like I said, it's not race. If Jow Ga jab techniques take longer to learn then so be it. Even though my brother learned his Muay Thai jab faster than I learned my Jow Ga jab, my Jow Ga jab is actually stronger than his jab. His jab is general and focuses on hitting the general areas of the face and the body. My is specific, I'm trying to hit specific spots on the face and the head. I can throw my jab from a leaning position or kneeling position. I can throw my jab will blocking at the same time. I can throw my jab in a way that it shaves and redirects your punch while allowing my punch to travel straight. I can jab with a horizontal fist or a vertical fist. My jab can be used downward or horizontally or upward.
So now to your question about proficiency? When the Muay Thai fighter reaches proficiency of the Jab before the Kung Fu practictioner. At what level of proficiency is he truly at.

So to make a long story short, you're arguing that the Chinese Martial Arts method to striking is superior to the methods found in Karate, TKD, Boxing, Muay Thai, and MMA?

 

[JowGaWolf]

So to make a long story short, you're arguing that the Chinese Martial Arts method is superior to the methods found in Karate, TKD, Muay Thai, and MMA?

Show me where I have said this.