Awesome Kung Fu Kick used in MMA

[Hanzou]

Show me where I have said this.

You said that the standard karate/MMA/MT/etc. front kick is bad because it can be caught. You said that your martial art and other CMAs had learned a superior kicking method that prevents your front kicks from being caught.

You then told the story about your Muay Thai pracitcing brother learning the jab faster than you did, but in the end your Kung Fu-based jab came out better with far more applications.

Finally you called Karate, TKD, MMA, and other fast learning arts "autotune" martial arts. A method of singing where you have to use the aid of a machine because you lack a decent singing voice. In other words, we're just faking it, while you guys are doing the "real" stuff.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

How long does it take to get a black belt in BJJ?

There is your answer.

 

[drop bear]

There's a solid point here. We are all better at what we practice for. I'm probably better at staying off the ground than Hanzou, because he's better on the ground than me. He's probably better at ending up in a strong position at the end of being taken down, so he does that in some cases where I'd work to prevent the takedown. We're practicing different things, so we have different strengths. I may be better at protecting against strikes on the ground than someone who only trains BJJ, because I deal with more strikes in my training (not sure about that one - that's a guess, following on your train of thought, Hanzou).

An MMA fighter is training specifically to handle trained MMA fighters and damned well ought to be better at that than I am, and better than Hanzou is. Hanzou is probably better equipped to deal with an MMA fighter than me because he is in BJJ (which covers most of the ground work the MMA guy would use, so better familiarity) and has worked out with more MMA fighters.

Providing all methods of training have a fundamentally equal result. Which I personally dont accept as a constant as that is story based. Not really evidence based.

 

[JowGaWolf]

To the original point in the thread, I think there is some inherent bias against some arts when viewing MMA derivations. It doesn't much matter whether the kick was originally derived from Muay Thai or Kung Fu - it exists in both, and the fact that it shows up in MMA fights is evidence that the particular strike works in that setting.

Exactly.

 

[drop bear]

Only if the MMA fighter is actually better than you. Not all MMA fighters are actually good at it even if they are trained.
These guys are trained MMA fighters. Here's a video of someone's son having their first MMA fight. It may or may not be the other guy's first fight. 3rd and 4th fights don't look any different. A person may or may not learn the lessons from the previous fights.

Here's an adult fight

So not everyone is a top of the line MMA fighter. Not all MMA fighters who train MMA have the capability of performing at a professional level. How many people train and play football, but aren't good enough to make it to the Pros? Fighting is just like that. Everyone that trains MMA isn't going to be at that professional level that. Not everyone that trains MMA or BJJ have the ability to perform at that level.

The existence of people who are at that top level. Has an influence on the everyones training though. If you are trained by top guys. You really should get better results. So if old mate opened a school. You could look up you tube and discern that he is not very good. And go train with someone who is good.

 

[drop bear]

In here is my problem and the reason I made the thread in the first place. The "MMA method." just because someone does a technique in MMA doesn't mean it's "The MMA Method"

what do you think the MMA method is?

 

[JowGaWolf]

You said that the standard karate/MMA/MT/etc. front kick is bad because it can be caught. You said that your martial art and other CMAs had learned a superior kicking method that prevents your front kicks from being caught.

Show me where I said any of this. The only thing I said is that the kicks is easy to catch, I actually train to catch and counter the kickboxer's front heel kick. Do you?

 

[JowGaWolf]

You then told the story about your Muay Thai pracitcing brother learning the jab faster than you did, but in the end your Kung Fu-based jab came out better with far more applications.

How many ways do you know how to effectively apply a jab. Feel free to share your skill set.

Finally you called Karate, TKD, MMA, and other fast learning arts "autotune" martial arts.

Show me where I said that they were autotune. To be proficient in Karate and TKD takes significantly longer to do than to learn how to fight in MMA. If you want to be proficient in using Karate, and TKD techniques beyond the kicks then then you'll need to have deep understanding of the techniques. This takes times and is not a fast process. Even recently on the discussion posts here, people have stated that the real learning of karate doesn't come until the student reaches black belt. While the system that I train isn't like that, it still takes time to be proficient in the techniques. It's not fast process, just like learning how to be proficient in Karate, TKD, aren't fast processes.

MMA on the other is different. If you can throw fists, decent elbows, and throw kicks and make it hurt then you can do MMA. Here's Kimbo Slice proving that point. Wait he didn't kick.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The existence of people who are at that top level. Has an influence on the everyones training though. If you are trained by top guys. You really should get better results. So if old mate opened a school. You could look up you tube and discern that he is not very good. And go train with someone who is good.

I totally agree with this. The quality of instruction is vital.

what do you think the MMA method is?

I personally don't believe in an MMA method. But people like Hanzou seem to think that there is one that's separate from actually doing a technique. They believe that a technique isn't valid unless it's done in MMA and that the only reason a traditional martial art technique works is because it was done "The MMA Way." It's sort of like how some people thought that TKD kicks wouldn't work in MMA and then they started showing up in MMA, but the TKD kick was only valid because someone pulled it off in MMA. The reality is that the kick was valid before MMA hence that's the reason the fighter was able to pull it off in an MMA match.

That low kick "oblique kick" that Jon Jones does was valid before MMA which is why it worked in MMA. But some people like Hanzou think that MMA is what made it valid.

 

[Hanzou]

Show me where I said any of this. The only thing I said is that the kicks is easy to catch, I actually train to catch and counter the kickboxer's front heel kick. Do you?

You also said that your "Kung Fu kick" is hard to catch, which is essentially saying that your Kung Fu front kick is better than the standard front kick taught in the arts I mentioned.

Traditionally many kung fu systems don't have that kick boxer's front kick because it's over extended which makes it easier to counter or to pull the kicking leg (This goes back to the importance of root).

You continued;

This is why you don't see the kick boxer's heel kick in many CMAs. You have to remember that many CMAs are self-defense based so in that context, if I catch your kickboxer's heel kick then I'm not going to sweep you. I'm going to kick the knee of your standing leg so I can try to end the fight as soon as possible. If I'm a jerk then I'm going to kick you in the groin before I kick your knee.

So essentially the kick boxer is throwing out a flawed front kick that is ripe for destruction, while the CMA folks have trained a better front kick that can avoid getting caught and getting kicked in the sack.

How many ways do you know how to effectively apply a jab. Feel free to share your skill set.

What does my ability to throw a jab have to do with you saying that the Jow Ga jab is superior to the Muay Thai jab?

Show me where I said that they were autotune.

Everything takes time. Learning how to sing takes time unless you use autotune. But if you want your want to have an Autotune fighting system then be my guess go for it. If you truly want to be good at something then you'll need to put in the time and effort that's required to be good at it. So if Kung Fu takes longer to learn to be good at it then so be it. A person will just have to do what's required to be good at it. If they just want bits and pieces then they can Autotune their training and have gaps in their understanding.

Essentially you're saying that we're in an "autotune fighting system" because we're becoming proficient at a quicker pace than a traditional stylist.

Let me know if I missed anything.

 

[JowGaWolf]

However, when I did the kick I was utilizing my Shotokan background, not some ancient Chinese source that I never trained in.

The kick is older than Shotokan. which is was created around 1936. The founder would have learned the technique sooner before the creation of Shotokan. Japanese martial arts share many techniques that are similar to Chinese martial arts because that's where Japanese martial arts come from.

Jow Ga Kung Fu is older than Shotokan, and the technique was taught in other systems such as Hung Gar, Choy Gar and some shaolin styles before Jow Ga was created. Shotokan from what I read was also made of various martial arts systems which means. The founder was taught techniques from another system which were likely to contain the same kick. Like all system founders. They tend to keep techniques that they like and could use well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well if you're seeing that kick being performed in a MMA setting, its more than likely coming from a kickboxing source. In fact, MMA coaches have been known to discourage more exotic looking kicks from non MMA styles like the CMA styles. There's a fairly hilarious video of Wing Chun practicioner Shawn Obasi having a mental breakdown because a MMA coach told him to stop throwing Wing Chun kicks because they were viewed as ineffective compared to the Muay Thai or TKD kicks found in standard MMA.

In any case, I've practiced the kick in OP before. However, when I did the kick I was utilizing my Shotokan background, not some ancient Chinese source that I never trained in.

My point is that it's an effective technique, and is found in several arts. Which one it was sourced from is not terribly important - it's much the same in several arts. Thus, when JGW calls it a Kung Fu kick, he's not wrong, nor would you be wrong to call it a Shotokan kick or a kickboxing kick.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You also said that your "Kung Fu kick" is hard to catch, which is essentially saying that your Kung Fu front kick is better than the standard front kick taught in the arts I mentioned.

The kick is harder to catch which is not the same as better than something else. If I catch your kick and break your standing knee then it doesn't matter how powerful your kick was because the problem was that I was able to catch it and break your knee.

As a martial artist you need to think beyond hitting and kicking as hard as you can as the only side of fighting that makes a difference. If you try to thrust kick me and I catch your leg and break your standing leg then how valuable was your kick that you could only do once? But if you did a front kick that returned quickly which made it difficult for me to catch and break your leg, then you can use that same kick over and over because I wouldn't be able to catch it.

One thing that traditional martial arts instructors tell all students is to not leave that kicking leg hanging out there.

So essentially the kick boxer is throwing out a flawed front kick that is ripe for destruction, while the CMA folks have trained a better front kick that can avoid getting caught and getting kicked in the sack.

For self-defense purposes the high front kick that they use in Muay Thai sporting is dangerous. to do because it leaves them open for a sweep and easy counters. I'll have to see if I can find that traditional Muay Thai video to see if I can see if the front kick is done lower.

 

[Hanzou]

The kick is older than Shotokan. which is was created around 1936. The founder would have learned the technique sooner before the creation of Shotokan. Japanese martial arts share many techniques that are similar to Chinese martial arts because that's where Japanese martial arts come from.

Jow Ga Kung Fu is older than Shotokan, and the technique was taught in other systems such as Hung Gar, Choy Gar and some shaolin styles before Jow Ga was created. Shotokan from what I read was also made of various martial arts systems which means. The founder was taught techniques from another system which were likely to contain the same kick. Like all system founders. They tend to keep techniques that they like and could use well.

Um okay....

My striking background is Shotokan, so I learned to kick via Shotokan. I saw Jon Jones' kick in a MMA bout a few years ago, and thought it would be a nice kick to add to my stand up game. I picked up the kick very quickly, probably got it about the second time I did it. However, the mechanics I was using in order to make the kick work were from Shotokan, not from whatever martial void the kick actually came from.

Its no different than someone with a wrestling background becoming more proficient more quickly in grappling arts due to their wrestling skill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Providing all methods of training have a fundamentally equal result. Which I personally dont accept as a constant as that is story based. Not really evidence based.

Because you don't like evidence that's not from sport competition.

 

[Hanzou]

The kick is harder to catch which is not the same as better than something else. If I catch your kick and break your standing knee then it doesn't matter how powerful your kick was because the problem was that I was able to catch it and break your knee.

LoL!

If you have two kicks, and one kick is prone to getting caught, and the other isn't, the latter is the superior kick.

As a martial artist you need to think beyond hitting and kicking as hard as you can as the only side of fighting that makes a difference. If you try to thrust kick me and I catch your leg and break your standing leg then how valuable was your kick that you could only do once? But if you did a front kick that returned quickly which made it difficult for me to catch and break your leg, then you can use that same kick over and over because I wouldn't be able to catch it.

One thing that traditional martial arts instructors tell all students is to not leave that kicking leg hanging out there.

For self-defense purposes the high front kick that they use in Muay Thai sporting is dangerous. to do because it leaves them open for a sweep and easy counters. I'll have to see if I can find that traditional Muay Thai video to see if I can see if the front kick is done lower.

So again, are you or are you not saying that you have a superior kicking method to a kick boxer? It certainly sounds like you are.

 

[Hanzou]

My point is that it's an effective technique, and is found in several arts. Which one it was sourced from is not terribly important - it's much the same in several arts. Thus, when JGW calls it a Kung Fu kick, he's not wrong, nor would you be wrong to call it a Shotokan kick or a kickboxing kick.

Well in the MMA context he is wrong since we have yet to see anyone with a Kung fu background utilize that kick in MMA.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Oh boy.

 

[drop bear]

Because you don't like evidence that's not from sport competition.

I dont like dogma. And there is too much of it in martial arts. Every one got told oblique kicks will put your knee straight out. Usually with that 9 pounds of force will break a knee rubbish.

It plainly doesn't. And that messes with people.

I love evidence that is not from sport. But nobody ever presents that either.

Just stories.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you have two kicks, and one kick is prone to getting caught, and the other isn't, the latter is the superior kick.

On that measure, yes. But the other may have other advantages - more power, faster, more vulnerable targets, sets up a second move, etc. Lower catchability is only one measure of a strike's effectiveness.