Awesome Kung Fu Kick used in MMA

[Hanzou]

If all this was true then no body would practice boxing, MMA, swimming, tennis, basketball, baseball or any other sport. Just because something works in practice with in the confines of practice doesn't mean that it's going to work in the game. If that's true then why bother practice. You might as well just stop training BJJ.

Of course they would. You train boxing to box. You train basketball to play basketball. You train swimming in order to swim. However, a basketball player, a boxer, and a swimmer doesn't believe that they can stop a MMA takedown. Only you TMA guys believe that malarkey.

I train Bjj because I enjoy the art. However, I don't believe that I could participate in MMA with my skill set. I would have to train specifically in MMA in order to stand a chance. That said, my Bjj training would allow me to enter a MMA competition more quickly than someone who had a background in any style of Kung Fu.

I don't do wrestling, I do Jow Ga and as far as I know, there are no MMA fighters that take Jow Ga so they aren't going to be able to do Jow Ga techniques better than I can. They can't be good in a system they don't train. As for the take downs that we do in the school they aren't wrestling-style takedowns.

That's my point; You're not as good at takedowns as a wrestler or a MMA exponent, so your takedown defenses are going to be inferior to their takedown attempts. The fact that you aren't doing wrestling style takedowns reinforces that belief because wrestlers have the best takedowns in the game, AND you're more likely to encounter a wrestling-style takedown than anything else. Just about every form of grappling utilizes some level of wrestling-style takedowns. If your goal is to counter a MMA takedown, you probably should be learning wrestling-style takedowns.

Again, the point of this discussion is Kung Fu's effectiveness in MMA.

Just because Anderson Silva is good in MMA doesn't mean he's can do Wing Chun better than a wing chun practitioner.

I agree with that. What's your point?

This is also an assumption that MMA is superior to other things.

MMA is superior to certain things. For example, I have no doubt that a MMA fighter with my level of experience is better at striking within the Guard than I am defending strikes while in my Guard (However, I'm personally closing that gap by cross-training with MMA fighters). Additionally, I have no doubt that a MMA fighter is better at takedowns than a TMA practitioner is at takedown defenses that originate from ancient China or Japan.

I've shown a video of me using a wide kung fu stance to successfully prevent take downs. I used it against a BJJ practitioner and he looked puzzled because no one had ever used a wide stance against him to prevent the take down. During that time we literally told him. "Show me how you would take me down." He got low, I got lower, when he raised his stance I raised my but always at a point where I was lower. His statement was that he couldn't do the takedown that he planned on using on me because of the height of my stance.

Did he pull Guard?

 

[Hanzou]

Well said and I don't believe many mma practioners understand that experience in traditional arts, teach exactly these concepts.

It is also interesting to note, that Hanzou, is pointing out a subject that exist in all arts, techniques never look the same in combat as they do in practice yet doesn't seem to understand that mma, is quilty of this as well.

I think it brings up the point, that it always depends on the individual and not the art.

Techniques in Boxing, Muay Thai, Bjj, Judo, and other "sport" styles do resemble their practice form in combat.

For example, Williams Guard in practice:

Williams Guard in MMA and Bjj competition:

The difference is that "sport" styles don't have kata to muck up the training regimen.

 

[Flying Crane]

You think any of that was based on sound fighting principles?

Interesting.

Anyway, the point is that that fighting display is a far cry from this;

Or this;

It looked like a broken form of kickboxing.

Oh sweet Jeezuz.
Ok, the first clip here is Fujian white crane. The system that I train, and the guy with the red shirt in the tournament video was doing, is Tibetan white crane. These are two completely separate systems, with different history and technique and methodology. That they are both called crane is coincidence. So, no, they do not look similar.

The second video is Jake somebody, who broke away from the Shaolin-do group of Sin The, the notorious Malaysian kuntao method that tried to pretend to be everything Shaolin. Once again, an entirely different method with zero shared history.

Gee whiz, see how much you don't know?

Yup, that kid in the red shirt in the tournament, he is getting it. Yup, sound fighting principles.

I did not expect you to understand it.

 

[drop bear]

No offense taken. If you can do it during quality free sparring half power and half speed then you'll be able do it at full intensity. I'll be honest with you, I find it easier to do CMA techniques at full speed than at 50% speed and 50% power. Every system does light free sparring including BJJ and they don't question their ability to do it at full speed. If you can't do a CMA technique at 50% speed-50%power during free sparring then there's no way that you'll be able to do it at full speed - full power - and high intensity. We see proof of this in Point Sparring where the participants aren't going full power and some aren't even going full speed.

Not really. the rules change a bit at full speed full power. There is still training at half speed but it is something to be aware of.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh sweet Jeezuz.
Ok, the first clip here is Fujian white crane. The system that I train, and the guy with the red shirt in the tournament video was doing, is Tibetan white crane. These are two completely separate systems, with different history and technique and methodology. That they are both called crane is coincidence. So, no, they do not look similar.

The second video is Jake somebody, who broke away from the Shaolin-do group of Sin The, the notorious Malaysian kuntao method that tried to pretend to be everything Shaolin. Once again, an entirely different method with zero shared history.

Gee whiz, see how much you don't know?

Yup, that kid in the red shirt in the tournament, he is getting it. Yup, sound fighting principles.

I did not expect you to understand it.

Thank you for that clarification.

So this is Tibetan White crane form:

Tibetan White Crane form application:

And Tibetan crane fighting (again):

The form and the fighting still don't resemble each other.

 

[Flying Crane]

They do if you understand the method and know what you are looking at.

Once again, this is outside your realm of experience and understanding.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The form and the fighting still don't resemble each other.

I think the advancing shuffle punch technique that the guy in the red shirt is using can be seen at 0:54 In the Pak Hok Pai form video that you posted. The front heel kick can be seen at 0:47 The jabs that go with the shuffle are at 1:25. The long back hand is at 0:20

This is what people mean when they say that "application doesn't look like the form." The applications look like techniques that are in the form.

 

[drop bear]

I think the advancing shuffle punch technique that the guy in the red shirt is using can be seen at 0:54 In the Pak Hok Pai form video that you posted. The front heel kick can be seen at 0:47 The jabs that go with the shuffle are at 1:25. The long back hand is at 0:20

This is what people mean when they say that "application doesn't look like the form." The applications look like techniques that are in the form.

It depends how much ideology you attach to your training. Some people start with what should work. (like oblique kicks should break knees) and then wear themselves out trying to make the reality meet their preconceptions. So then they train in a manner that requires their art to look and behave a certain way regardless of the actual results. Their training starts to stray from their fighting.

Other arts take what they have been successful with and make that the core of their training. So their training looks very similar to their fighting.

 

[Hanzou]

I think the advancing shuffle punch technique that the guy in the red shirt is using can be seen at 0:54 In the Pak Hok Pai form video that you posted. The front heel kick can be seen at 0:47 The jabs that go with the shuffle are at 1:25. The long back hand is at 0:20

This is what people mean when they say that "application doesn't look like the form." The applications look like techniques that are in the form.

Jabs, shuffle punches, and heel kicks can be found in a multitude of styles. Hell, they're found in kickboxing! There was nothing distinctively "Kung Fu" about anything that kid was doing except keeping his hands down. A tactic btw that would get him KO'd in just about any MMA-based striking system.

Again, if the end result of years of practice is sloppy kickboxing, why not simply avoid all of those elaborate forms and pseudo-scientific concepts and simply learn proper kickboxing?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've got to say, I actually don't care what my white crane looks like in application, as long as I'm using the fundamental principles in my techniques.

I'm a proponent of: real life application usually does not look like what training looks like. This is because training often uses exaggerated movement in order to ingrain the principles into the technical mechanics. But once you have developed skill with the principles, then the exaggeration diminishes and goes away, and it can look like anything, or nothing, or even slop. As long as the principles are underneath and driving it, it doesn't matter. An educated eye can still see it. An inexperienced eye will not.

I know a lot of people feel that their kung fu ought to look a certain way. I agree in the context of training. I disagree in the context of application.

I also know that for a lot of people who do not train Kung fu, this is difficult or impossible to understand.

I also agree with you that I rarely see what I would consider to be optimal mechanics, in the (admittedly very little) MMA that I have watched (I find myself monumentally disinterested in it, and have only accidentally caught a few bouts on tv.). But that doesn't mean they cannot be effective. I've said many times here in the forums, you don't need perfect technique or high skill, or a superior system to hurt someone. Hurting someone is easy.

However, I do agree that mechanically, there is a lot of room for improvement with a lot of what happens in MMA.

I think the key here is in the "experienced eye". Most of us would be much better at spotting the principles and movements of our own art than of any other. I, for instance, would have a very difficult time figuring out if someone was using appropriate kung fu movement and principles (of any style), but would be able to recognize better the principles and movements of those arts more closely related to my primary art, so Judo, much of Japanese Jujutsu/Aiki-Jujutsu, Aikido, Shotokan Karate, etc. In between are arts I can comprehend, but have a harder time recognizing outside the iconic moves (BJJ comes to mind), so I can see the principles, but won't recognize the art much better than anyone else.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course they would. You train boxing to box. You train basketball to play basketball. You train swimming in order to swim. However, a basketball player, a boxer, and a swimmer doesn't believe that they can stop a MMA takedown. Only you TMA guys believe that malarkey.

I train Bjj because I enjoy the art. However, I don't believe that I could participate in MMA with my skill set. I would have to train specifically in MMA in order to stand a chance. That said, my Bjj training would allow me to enter a MMA competition more quickly than someone who had a background in any style of Kung Fu.



That's my point; You're not as good at takedowns as a wrestler or a MMA exponent, so your takedown defenses are going to be inferior to their takedown attempts. The fact that you aren't doing wrestling style takedowns reinforces that belief because wrestlers have the best takedowns in the game, AND you're more likely to encounter a wrestling-style takedown than anything else. Just about every form of grappling utilizes some level of wrestling-style takedowns. If your goal is to counter a MMA takedown, you probably should be learning wrestling-style takedowns.

Again, the point of this discussion is Kung Fu's effectiveness in MMA.



I agree with that. What's your point?



MMA is superior to certain things. For example, I have no doubt that a MMA fighter with my level of experience is better at striking within the Guard than I am defending strikes while in my Guard (However, I'm personally closing that gap by cross-training with MMA fighters). Additionally, I have no doubt that a MMA fighter is better at takedowns than a TMA practitioner is at takedown defenses that originate from ancient China or Japan.



Did he pull Guard?

There's a solid point here. We are all better at what we practice for. I'm probably better at staying off the ground than Hanzou, because he's better on the ground than me. He's probably better at ending up in a strong position at the end of being taken down, so he does that in some cases where I'd work to prevent the takedown. We're practicing different things, so we have different strengths. I may be better at protecting against strikes on the ground than someone who only trains BJJ, because I deal with more strikes in my training (not sure about that one - that's a guess, following on your train of thought, Hanzou).

An MMA fighter is training specifically to handle trained MMA fighters and damned well ought to be better at that than I am, and better than Hanzou is. Hanzou is probably better equipped to deal with an MMA fighter than me because he is in BJJ (which covers most of the ground work the MMA guy would use, so better familiarity) and has worked out with more MMA fighters.

 

[Flying Crane]

There was nothing distinctively "Kung Fu" about anything that kid was doing except keeping his hands down.

Once again, wrong.

You simply lack the education to understand what you are even looking at.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think the key here is in the "experienced eye". Most of us would be much better at spotting the principles and movements of our own art than of any other. I, for instance, would have a very difficult time figuring out if someone was using appropriate kung fu movement and principles (of any style), but would be able to recognize better the principles and movements of those arts more closely related to my primary art, so Judo, much of Japanese Jujutsu/Aiki-Jujutsu, Aikido, Shotokan Karate, etc. In between are arts I can comprehend, but have a harder time recognizing outside the iconic moves (BJJ comes to mind), so I can see the principles, but won't recognize the art much better than anyone else.

Yup. The problem is that those with the uneducated eye want to go on and on.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think the advancing shuffle punch technique that the guy in the red shirt is using can be seen at 0:54 In the Pak Hok Pai form video that you posted. The front heel kick can be seen at 0:47 The jabs that go with the shuffle are at 1:25. The long back hand is at 0:20

This is what people mean when they say that "application doesn't look like the form." The applications look like techniques that are in the form.

Charging punch is a fundamental tactic. I am looking more deeply than that however. I an see how he uses his root and drives rotation in his waist. It is done in a very specific way, and that is what white crane is built on. The tactics are part of it, but without the foundational principles, the tactics don't get you very far.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Techniques in Boxing, Muay Thai, Bjj, Judo, and other "sport" styles do resemble their practice form in combat.

For example, Williams Guard in practice:

Williams Guard in MMA and Bjj competition:

The difference is that "sport" styles don't have kata to muck up the training regimen.

I don't think you realize that crosstraining has existed long before mma came about. Mma was designed for a specific purpose, fighting in a ring or cage. It was not designed for self defense or street combat. Its specifics are sport inspired. You saud it yourself, modern boxing, (sport), modern judo(sport), moderm maui tai, (sport) modern bjj(sport).

All of these that you mentioned, have been designed or reformulated for sport or competition.That is why they work in mma. But still, its nothing new.

Simulating combat by using and training in a sport aspect, makes it a sport. Not real combat.

I get the fact that you are pointing out that kung fu wont work for mma competitions, but mma will not work in a Kung fu competition.

Will either of them work on the street, who knows, that depends on the individual not the art.

There is a reason why you do not do a mauy tai round kick in the streets, you will expose your back, your legs, your crotch and a dozen other openings. It was known in the late 80's that it is a foolish kick to use in street combat.

Boxing is exactly the same way, thats why people focused on kicking in the early nineties.

Wrestling worked some what in street fighting, as long as whomever you were fighting didnt have friends or simply a knife to stick you with.

The realities of the street have proven time and time again, that combat sports are only partially effective in the street and most of that centers around endurance.

These things are great for sport sure, but like traditional arts, can be lacking in a real violent situation.

But to say that mma is better than any traditional martial art for actual defense. Is just a simple lack of experience in real world scenerios.

 

[Flying Crane]

The guy below is definitely not using kung fu. He definitely didn't look like basic kickboxing. The difference is clear to see when I look at this guy from the same school (I assume)

I actually didn't look and read closely enough to realize that this is a different video from the one posted earlier.

This poor fellow hasn't got it. He falls back into sloppy kickboxing and he doesn't have the white crane principles in place. He is playing the same game that most people play, it's not terribly useful.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Charging punch is a fundamental tactic. I am looking more deeply than that however. I an see how he uses his root and drives rotation in his waist. It is done in a very specific way, and that is what white crane is built on. The tactics are part of it, but without the foundational principles, the tactics don't get you very far.

that's how I was looking at it as well. It's just there's a lot that can be discussed in relation to the root and the technique. I don't think Hanzou would be interested in knowing it at that level so I just tried to point out the easy stuff that someone from another system would understand.

But I guess I was wrong with that because Hanzou he stated

Jabs, shuffle punches, and heel kicks can be found in a multitude of styles. Hell, they're found in kickboxing! There was nothing distinctively "Kung Fu" about anything that kid was doing except keeping his hands down.

which misses the entire point. It's not about jabs, shuffles punches, and heel kicks, it's how it's done. Heel kicks in kung fu are not the same heel kicks that are done in kickboxing.
This is a kick boxing front heel kick. A kung fu heel kick in kung fu isn't taught like this. This would be more like a thrust kick in kick in Kung fu The mechanics of the kick is different.

This is a front heel kick from Wing Chun

In Jow Ga the front heel kick is is done differently than both kickboxing and Wing Chun. For us our front heel kick is like the kick at 7:30

You may think that these kicks are the same but they aren't.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't think you realize that crosstraining has existed long before mma came about. Mma was designed for a specific purpose, fighting in a ring or cage. It was not designed for self defense or street combat. Its specifics are sport inspired. You saud it yourself, modern boxing, (sport), modern judo(sport), moderm maui tai, (sport) modern bjj(sport).

All of these that you mentioned, have been designed or reformulated for sport or competition.That is why they work in mma. But still, its nothing new.

Simulating combat by using and training in a sport aspect, makes it a sport. Not real combat.

I get the fact that you are pointing out that kung fu wont work for mma competitions, but mma will not work in a Kung fu competition.

Will either of them work on the street, who knows, that depends on the individual not the art.

There is a reason why you do not do a mauy tai round kick in the streets, you will expose your back, your legs, your crotch and a dozen other openings. It was known in the late 80's that it is a foolish kick to use in street combat.

Boxing is exactly the same way, thats why people focused on kicking in the early nineties.

Wrestling worked some what in street fighting, as long as whomever you were fighting didnt have friends or simply a knife to stick you with.

The realities of the street have proven time and time again, that combat sports are only partially effective in the street and most of that centers around endurance.

These things are great for sport sure, but like traditional arts, can be lacking in a real violent situation.

None of what you typed above has anything to do with what I was talking about. You said that no martial art looks the way it trains in combat mode. I gave you several martial arts that do look like the way they train when they fight.

BTW, several of those martial art sports work just fine in a self defense scenario.

But to say that mma is better than any traditional martial art for actual defense. Is just a simple lack of experience in real world scenerios.

Who was saying that?

 

[Hanzou]

Once again, wrong.

You simply lack the education to understand what you are even looking at.

While I'm unfamiliar with the psuedo-science principles of white crane Kung Fu, I am familiar with good striking versus poor striking.

There's a reason why people who make a living fighting people avoid those outmoded principles and embrace more modern ones backed by actual evidence and common sense. BTW, this includes the Chinese themselves who abandoned traditional Chinese martial arts for western boxing when they created Chinese MMA.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

None of what you typed above has anything to do with what I was talking about. You said that no martial art looks the way it trains in combat mode. I gave you several martial arts that do look like the way they train when they fight.

BTW, several of those martial art sports work just fine in a self defense scenario.



Who was saying that?

Obviously you are talking sport. Which I do not do and will not do. If your speaking in a sport arena...then yes. Some will look the same. But why waste your time in a sport art? If you enjoy it great...but none of them will look the same in a real situation.

Experience will teach you that.

I don't do sport martial arts so, I will no longer comment on them.