Awesome Kung Fu Kick used in MMA

[Hanzou]

Your bias shows, and your lack of knowledge concerning Karate is understandable. You obviously are a cherry picker. If you would have read my entire post...you would have understood, that I stated that the applications, will look different than the forms.

Funny, that's exactly what I said. What are you disagreeing with?

You just do not understand that the movements in Kata, are not meant to teach the method of delivery.

Again, that's what I said.

Hell, you can see the sloppiness in every cage match in mma. Its right in front of your face. You are just mystified by the current kick of the month.

What does that even mean?

When I cocompared the teachings of kata with the step by step method that bjj teachs..it was an attempt to get you to understand that practice and delivery are not the same. But it is clear that you just want to be right.

And then in this same post you say this;

The movements found in Karate kata are barely used in the fighting form, which is why the argument of people not fighting like the forms comes up fairly consistently.

Which makes them COMPLETELY different from the step by step method that Bjj teaches.

Again, what are you disagreeing with?

You see kickboxing, simply because a majority of karateka, are trained for tournament and competition, not actual fighting.

Feel free to show me some karateka doing some "actual" fighting. The only ones I've seen on a consistent basis are Kyokushin practitioners.

Next time, read the persons entire post.

Nah.

 

[Hanzou]

Student and martial artists in general will only use the techniques that they feel comfortable with. As the student gets better, they begin to add on more advanced techniques to their list of techniques to use in a fight. I wouldn't expect children to have a large comfort zone of karate techniques for use.

Some of those "children" were advanced rank. A few were even black belts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This thread has seriously gone downhill it started off analysing 1 kick in what was actually discussion now it's just gone to a style vs style slagging match.

Honestly I think it's pretty ignorant of any high level martial artist to disrespect another style and call it useless. Me personally I don't like grappling I find it dull to watch and boring to practice but I still respect it and still know it has its uses as does kickboxing as does Kung fu as does karate as does taekwondo as does anything.

Unfortunately you are right which is why I had to start another thread. To discuss and analyze the kick.
The impact of a Kung Fu Shin Kick - aka oblique kick in MMA

 

[JowGaWolf]

That lines up with my understanding of the way we use forms, they are the "perfect" application of the technique - perfect situation, perfect movement, etc. Application in sparring or fight will never quite match it, since you'll never get those exact optimal circumstances and will often have to make some compromises on the perfect movement to accommodate whatever appears to be next.

I think I've come up with a way to numerically compare form and resistance. It'll be able to show how the technique from the form is affected by resistance and it will show how a technique that can be performed with one motion but will have different applications. Right now the equation only works for one technique and it doesn't account for a combination of techniques working together such as parry punch. It'll make a good read if I can get the variables correct.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Some of those "children" were advanced rank. A few were even black belts.

Advanced rank and color belt within a school doesn't reflect fighting capabilities. My school doesn't use skill ranks or belts, so I guess that would make me horrible at martial arts.

Every school has it's own criteria for getting a black belt. If the school is heavily focused on Martial Arts as a sport, then there's no need to make it a requirement to actually know how to fight in order to get a black belt.

If a school is heavily focused on knowing kata and being able to do it correctly with little or no flaw then there's no need to make it a requirement to actually know how to fight in order to get a black belt.

Blackbelts often represent the focus of the schools training. If the school trains to beat the mess out of people then you can be confident that the guys wearing the black belts in that school are the best at beating the mess out of people (within their school).

 

[drop bear]

Advanced rank and color belt within a school doesn't reflect fighting capabilities. My school doesn't use skill ranks or belts, so I guess that would make me horrible at martial arts.

Every school has it's own criteria for getting a black belt. If the school is heavily focused on Martial Arts as a sport, then there's no need to make it a requirement to actually know how to fight in order to get a black belt.

If a school is heavily focused on knowing kata and being able to do it correctly with little or no flaw then there's no need to make it a requirement to actually know how to fight in order to get a black belt.

Blackbelts often represent the focus of the schools training. If the school trains to beat the mess out of people then you can be confident that the guys wearing the black belts in that school are the best at beating the mess out of people (within their school).

Not really. Ok. You have effective training and well lets say less effective training. So if you train to punch kick and grapple well then you will be better at beating the mess out of people than someone who doesn't train effectively. This is regardless as to what your focus is.

So the few weeks of super basic military training. Is generally not as good as dedicated civilian training. And why the Mc map crowd get eaten alive in sports gyms.

Now having said that Kata and stance training is used pretty consistently and so would fall in to an either or category for creating an effective fighter.

eg. Connor Mcgregor and his movement training.

which if you look at squinty eyeyed reflects the same elements as kata. In that it trains you to move. which is an important fighting element.

and why I have no real issue with kata. (exept when people get weird about it) And even acro kicks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah. If I had a choice between the John Jones kick that wins him UFC fights and yours which rearranged the bag in your room. I would probably go the John Jones kick.

Look I might be missing out on an awesome technique. But I guess I will just have to take that risk.

It's the same kick.. You can volunteer your shin next time.

 

[Hanzou]

Advanced rank and color belt within a school doesn't reflect fighting capabilities. My school doesn't use skill ranks or belts, so I guess that would make me horrible at martial arts.

In Bjj it does. In Karate a black belt should have some level of fighting skill. Second degree black belts are allowed to teach in some Karate schools.

Every school has it's own criteria for getting a black belt. If the school is heavily focused on Martial Arts as a sport, then there's no need to make it a requirement to actually know how to fight in order to get a black belt.

Again, not the case with Bjj, even in heavy sport schools. If you suck at rolling, you're not advancing in rank.

Blackbelts often represent the focus of the schools training. If the school trains to beat the mess out of people then you can be confident that the guys wearing the black belts in that school are the best at beating the mess out of people (within their school).

So what was the focus of that school? Dancing? It certainly isn't fighting.

 

[drop bear]

It's the same kick.. You can volunteer your shin next time.

Unlike that bag. I am not going to just stand there. Different element. Anything works if you just stand there.

My major issue with security wrist locks by the way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In Karate a black belt should have some level of fighting skill. Second degree black belts are allowed to teach in some Karate schools.

This used to be true but now it's not. Not every karate school trains for self-defense or even the intensity that comes with a real fight. However there are some school that do train using traditional methods, so showing the video of kids learning is not representative of those who train using traditional methods.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Unlike that bag. I am not going to just stand there. Different element. Anything works if you just stand there.

My major issue with security wrist locks by the way.

It doesn't matter if you aren't just going to stand there. I would still be able to deliver the kick at full force, and you'll get it when you least expect it. Plus you moving will actually work in my benefit and actually make this kick easier to land.

While anything works if you just stand there. There's a lot of things in martial arts that works better when the opponent is moving. Martial arts systems that make use of pulling, yielding, and sweep love it when the opponent moves. The more committed you are to your movements the more devastating a technique can be. This kick falls into that category.

 

[Hanzou]

This used to be true but now it's not. Not every karate school trains for self-defense or even the intensity that comes with a real fight. However there are some school that do train using traditional methods, so showing the video of kids learning is not representative of those who train using traditional methods.

In the Kyokushin line and similar lines of karate it's definitely true. However, Kyokushin is based around fighting (though there is kata in the system).

In any case, here's a vid of adults doing the exact same thing the kids were doing;

Keep in mind, this is the dojo you used as an example of people utilizing kata bunkai. As you can see, it has little bearing on their actual fighting method.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They are trying to beat each other unconscious. There is an element of that.

And regarding John jones. Crashing in to a pregnant chick and then running away because he is on the pingas tops anything knee kick wise.

Jon Jones -- Drugs Found In Crash Car

Obviously, there's no debating that last point.

My point was that the sport fairly requires a certain amount of injuring others, but there's a point beyond which a good competitor should not go. Taking out knees on purpose is definitely across that line.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Unlike that bag. I am not going to just stand there. Different element. Anything works if you just stand there.

My major issue with security wrist locks by the way.

I have this issue with wrist locks for retention, too. Many of those locks are only dependable for destruction, IMO, and security officers won't normally be allowed to destroy a joint.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In the Kyokushin line and similar lines of karate it's definitely true. However, Kyokushin is based around fighting (though there is kata in the system).

In any case, here's a vid of adults doing the exact same thing the kids were doing;

Keep in mind, this is the dojo you used as an example of people utilizing kata bunkai. As you can see, it has little bearing on their actual fighting method.

yeah that's all sports training there. But that was back to what I've always said. Not everyone trains to fight some train for sport. In the case of the video that you posted, they are training for the sport of point sparring, so you can compare that to the self-defense approach to training. From a self-defense perspective no one does a one hit, then yell, and pose at the end of the punch.

You keep trying to generalize on the fighting system instead of looking at the fighters or the school to even determine if they are actually training for fighting.

 

[drop bear]

I have this issue with wrist locks for retention, too. Many of those locks are only dependable for destruction, IMO, and security officers won't normally be allowed to destroy a joint.

I use wrestling to secure arm and body control before I hit the wrist lock. so the guy is wrapped up first.

Anyway. If you do a security course generally you are asked to stand there limp. let the instructor put the arm lock on and then he cranks the crap out of it. which of course hurts like hell.

Aparently thats proof wrist locks work.

You go into the world and there are not so many people let you do that.

Not a bad example of how the dynamics of wrist locking kind of works.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I use wrestling to secure arm and body control before I hit the wrist lock. so the guy is wrapped up first.

Anyway. If you do a security course generally you are asked to stand there limp. let the instructor put the arm lock on and then he cranks the crap out of it. which of course hurts like hell.

Aparently thats proof wrist locks work.

You go into the world and there are not so many people let you do that.

Not a bad example of how the dynamics of wrist locking kind of works.

Successful Joint locks have 3 basics.
1. Joint locks are to flow with the persons movement. By flowing with the movement there is no resistance.
2. Know more than one joint lock. Usually when a person resits one joint lock, they put themselves in the position to have another joint lock applied. For example. The resistance to the wrist lock at 2:00 could have been turned into a different lock.
3. Do what was shown in the video, always keep the attempt to lock a joint hidden, by doing something that distracts the person from your true attention which then allows you to follow #1 of going with the flow of the person's movement.

I understand why in a security course that they ask the person to not resist and it's because of the lack of control of the people practicing the joint lock. The more that my partner resists, the more effort I'll put into doing the joint lock and that's not a good thing to do without control. If I think someone is going to resist then I may try to beat that person's resistance with speed or strength and as a result I may accidentally destroy the joint. It would be different if the instructor knows with certainty that the participants have control, but since he has no way of knowing it's just best to play it safe.

The other danger is that sometimes the resistance goes in the wrong direction. There have been times when I had to release my attempt to lock a joint because the student was twisting in a way in which he would have damaged his own joint by trying to escape.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If he breaks the knee he wins and goes home.

Why wouldn't he?

Because if he goes around breaking his opponents knees on purpose who would put him in their promotions?

 

[RTKDCMB]

What does that even mean?

Really? You can't see the sloppy punches and kicks and brawling in MMA fights?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I use wrestling to secure arm and body control before I hit the wrist lock. so the guy is wrapped up first.

Anyway. If you do a security course generally you are asked to stand there limp. let the instructor put the arm lock on and then he cranks the crap out of it. which of course hurts like hell.

Aparently thats proof wrist locks work.

You go into the world and there are not so many people let you do that.

Not a bad example of how the dynamics of wrist locking kind of works.

My first instructor in NGA was a cop and went on to teach at LE academies in three states (as he moved). I get most of my attitude toward our locks from him. He would teach a small number of them for cuffing and restraint (mostly for transitions like in the KM video you posted), but most aren't suited to that - too much risk of causing significant damage if they resist, or not a decent base to them unless you already have them off their feet, or just too situation-specific. In a self-defense situation, I'm not as concerned about the potential of damaging them. I have little need to restrain someone via wrist lock when they are actively fighting back if they're actually trying to hurt me - I want to stop the fighting, and can use the destructions if needed. There are easier locks for restraint (larger joints), that give me better control of their movement even if they ignore the pain.