OP
OP
Awesome Kung Fu Kick used in MMA
- Thread starter JowGaWolf
- Start date
Hanzou
Grandmaster
That vid perfectly illustrates the problem of bunkai; No one is ever going to attack you in that fashion to allow you to perform those types of counters.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
That's one hell of an interpretation considering that he pulled all of that from this;
All of that from that simple movement? Yeah, okay.....
Protip: Learn proper head clinching from a style like Muay Thai where they actually practice it.
It looks like those guys are practicing it, too.That's one hell of an interpretation considering that he pulled all of that from this;
All of that from that simple movement? Yeah, okay.....
Protip: Learn proper head clinching from a style like Muay Thai where they actually practice it.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Nah, that's a seminar.
I did that kata numerous times. No one ever even hinted at any of that being a head clinch.
You're kind of supporting all of Hanzou's points. (They'll be no living with him.)
I'm pretty sure I just did.
Just because it's a seminar, and because the kata is being interpreted differently than you were taught, that doesn't change the fact that those folks at the seminar are, in fact, practicing a head clinch. Arts evolve (or should).
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Seminars are in place to build upon fundamentals, or to teach fundamentals themselves. Something as complex as the head clinch isn't something you should be introducing at a seminar. This is especially true if the movement you're pulling it from (kata) is a dubious source to begin with.
Further, I don't remember ever drilling head clinches in my old Shotokan classes, nor ever fighting a karateka that used them. The main strikers in my experience who utilize head clinches are Muay Thai kickboxers, and they have an entire sub-system built around that position.
With all due respect, Mr. Abernathy's "bunkai" has always struck me as something he just makes up as he goes along.
I said forms same as stretching in relations to fighting.
Meaning it has another purpose that is of benefit, it is not fighting.
Never did I say kata or bunkai. I leave that discussion to others.
I never said it was not applied. Just like writing down alphabet does not mean it will resemble words. It will only show you the letters you may use and in terms of forms there is also concepts and theories that apply to them to create thought.
None of it intended to be application and in my view not something that is of large focus during training. Still important to understand movements correctly.
Waste of time? Ask me in 40 years if I can show all things in this system. If I still remember all forms then I can show you. It takes you years of study to grasp what I show but that is not my problem unless I wish to teach you.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I was under the impression that forms and kata are used synonymously. I'm pretty sure that many here use them that way. Thanks for clearing this up.
So, just to make sure. You're saying forms are not kata, but are more like stretching in that they have an indirect benefit tmfighting skill.
Well for my kung fu art the forms are libraries and ideas.
They contain he base of our movements. Without the movements we do not have an art. In terms of doing forms it is like looking up the words. Sometimes we might realize something new and in other cases we simply wish to find something we have forgotten or become unsure of.
Stretching or conditioning are same way for joints, heart, lungs and muscles. Forms are for mind.
Plus I am sure it may be trained without showing application and as such be secret to others as part of situation in the past.
Once more we do forms but it is not a major part of training.
He may be adding to what was originally intended, but that's not the same as making it up. If he finds a movement they already rehearse (in a form) and uses that to teach something that should be in their training but isn't, that's probably a good intro to it. As I said, arts should evolve, and this would be a good evolutionary step for Karate.
I remember talking with another martial artist about how they used forms (it was a hybrid art drawing on Indonesian and Filipino roots). He demonstrated part of a form for me that was just a series of steps (literally, no hand movements), and it looked pretty goofy. Then he showed me a couple of applications to their techniques, and showed me where the sequences of footwork (including one that knelt halfway through and another that rose from kneeling) showed up in the form. They used it just like you're talking about.
His instructor would say something like, "Okay, while you block, take steps 7 through 9 and bring his arm with you."
It was a way for them to learn the footwork, and then plug it into a technique, so they could work the handwork separately.
OP
OP
The videos don't support his argument. If you look at what is being done and ask "can I make the same movement in a fight?" then it actually shows the validity of the bunkai and forms.
For example: Can we clinch using the technique shown in the bunkai videos? Yes. notice the placement of the hands
Can we push down someone's head using the same technique? Yes.
In a fight, those techniques aren't going to look exactly the same because the resistance caused variation in performance of the technique. For example, When a person trains the jab by punching a bag. The are training the "perfect form" of that jab because there is no resistance. When they get into the fight, that "perfect form" degrades. The same jab that we throw in a fight is not the same jab that is thrown in practice when hitting the pads. The jabs that are thrown in a real fight are variations of what we practice when hitting the pads. Bunkai and Forms are the same way. They are the "perfect" representation of what we try to, with the understanding that the elements of fighting will cause changes in how "perfect" a technique is. We don't want to learn a technique from it's variation because the variation isn't "perfect." technique or "perfect" power. When a technique is landed with little or no resistance then we want to make sure that we are as close to "perfect" as possible. Sometimes a technique is able to enter with little to no resistance and when it does, we want that punch to be close to a perfect punch as possible and not an assumed variation.
A = starting quality of technique B = Resistance that changes quality of technique. C = Variation of technique caused by resistance
A+B = C
The quality of my punch is 100. The level of resistance reduces my quality by -20 so the variation of my technique caused by resistance is 80
If I train from the variation then I'm not training from 100, I'm training from 80. In that case
The quality of my punch is 80. The level of resistance reduces my quality by -20, so the variation of my technique is now 60
If my punch enters without resistance the the quality of my punch cannot be higher than 80 which is the quality that I started off with.
As seen in this picture. Notice the bend in the wrist.
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