Article by Mr. Will Tracy

[CoolKempoDude]

I don't want to *ignite* anything here and don't want to see anybody get hurt or keep fighting.

This is not the first time we have seen this kind of article published by Tracy people.

I have a few questions here.

1- Why *AK high profile * people haven't wanted to have a friendly,openly,and peacefully *discussion* with Tracy people AFTER this article was published first so that we can avoid further damaging???

2- Is it not the time to put an end to this issue and move on ???

Your silent for many years has not improved anything. I feel bad for Ed Parker and AK people.

after your founder passed away, many things bad have happened. It looks like we continue to see these things for many years. The worst thing here is nobody wants to do anything.

When a person outside of AK look at AK community, he/she simply shakes their head because of what is going on in this community.

Good luck with your AK. God bless you.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't want to *ignite* anything here and don't want to see anybody get hurt or keep fighting.

This is not the first time we have seen this kind of article published by Tracy people.

I have a few questions here.

1- Why *AK high profile * people haven't wanted to have a friendly,openly,and peacefully *discussion* with Tracy people AFTER this article was published first so that we can avoid further damaging???

2- Is it not the time to put an end to this issue and move on ???

Your silent for many years has not improved anything. I feel bad for Ed Parker and AK people.

after your founder passed away, many things bad have happened. It looks like we continue to see these things for many years. The worst thing here is nobody wants to do anything.

When a person outside of AK look at AK community, he/she simply shakes their head because of what is going on in this community.

Good luck with your AK. God bless you.

Cool KD, Of all the people whom have ever left Mr. Parker and did there own thing, why do you think it is so important that the first ones to leave reconsile with current Parker Kenpoists? Current Kenpoists aren't exactly drinking buddies now, and where all supposed to get toguether with The T-Dragon people and sing "We are the World"? I studied a bit of Tracy's in Denver Colorado. They were nice guys, but the mind set is that they were lucky to not be Parker's Kenpo. I can't fault them for believing what they do is the correct way; because, if they didn't there wouldn't be a Tracy's Kenpo. I ask you. What would be our motivation? Making you feel more comfortable is not our concern. :asian:
Sean

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Of all the people whom have ever left Mr. Parker and did there own thing, why do you think it is so important that the first ones to leave reconsile with current Parker Kenpoists?

but the mind set is that they were lucky to not be Parker's Kenpo.

What would be our motivation? Making you feel more comfortable is not our concern. :asian:
Sean

thank you for helping me understand better about another side of AK.

 

[Touch Of Death]

thank you for helping me understand better about another side of AK.

Let me spell it out more clearly... Everyone thinks that they have the corner on the market. If we were to all get toguether and play nice, which methods should give? I'll give you a hint. This article will not be a factor in the decision.
Sean

 

[WhiteTiger]

I was a blue belt when Mr. Parker passed. I didn't know him, or even who he was in the world of kenpo at the time. I did however, see how his death affected my instructor who was one of Mr. Parker's students in the mid 60's, but had migrated to the Tracy's in the mid 70's. Years later after hearing his opinions and those of a few other seniors, on both sides of the descussion. I have concluded, that it is greatly about respect and disrespect. Those who were there in the very early years, '56-'69 many of whom were instrumental in developing the art into what we have today, were angered by the lack of respect shown them by those from the '70's. Some felt that the advent of AK was used as an excuse to discredit the one's who came before.

Whether it is valid or not, in my opinion, it was wrong of Will Tracy to publish this letter publicly. In the few conversations I have had with Al Tracy and other seniors they all agree on this. There is no need for the Kenpo Masters to air their laundry in public.

 

[RCastillo]

Ah HA !!!!!!!!!! Then look what Ricardo said.......


Neener ...... Neener ...... Neener ...... Guess that shows that YOUR poll :rtfm:isn't worth the web its posted on....... LOL

Ahhhaaahahaahaahahaaaahahaaaahahaaaa:roflmao:

Maybe you should go practice spitting into the wind somewhere else....
:wavey:

Last time I checked, both of my parents have passed on, so that leaves me in charge of myself. :asian:

 

[RCastillo]

If it does not pertain directly to the topic at hand, take it offline.
Seig
MT Admin Team

Even better, please move my postings on the subject immediately, that way Dan, and any one else can have free reign to cut me up. I don't really care, as they ALL missed the point.

Thank you! :asian:

 

[Sigung86]

Even better, please move my postings on the subject immediately, that way Dan, and any one else can have free reign to cut me up. I don't really care, as they ALL missed the point.

Thank you! :asian:

Well Gee... That's cool Ricardo. Put yourself in a position to cause strife and then when you get it ... Fold up and blow away.

I did not miss any point. I simply saw three problems with the whole issue. One is that this old crap stuff that had been denounced by Al Tracy has, once again, reared it's ugly head, needlessly.

Two, a supposed leader, a senior as you called him, in Tracy's Kenpo posted it and let it stand. And then he had the temerity to make it everyone elses problem if they had an issue with it. He washed his hands of it, much like some other authors on other forums... I can print what I want, say what I want and intimate what I wish ... If you don't believe it then that becomes your issue. If you disagree then that's your issue... I'm clear of it all. Much like releasing a particularly foul flatulence in a closed room and making it everyone elses problem if they pass out.

Three, and finally, when you took out the supposed "offending" posts on that particular thread, you made sure that all the post to that thread which were supportive, staid. That, in a nutshell, was lopsided, and lame. You took the heat for it in a different post, but you still made a choice to handle it in a way that required no accountability on the part of the poster. You cut out "offending" opinion, and walked away from it. NO ACCOUNTABILITY. And now ... true to previous actions ... You are doing it once again.

That's too bad.

Dan

ps: Ricardo ... I didn't cut on you... I merely call 'em as I sees 'em... I don't understand how you could be offended in the least... I'm not responsible for my posts anymore than you or Mr. Sumner, neither is any one else.

 

[8253]

Don't believe everything you read on the internet! Take everything with a grain of salt. And question your assumptions about history.

The smartest thing ive heard today :uhyeah:

 

[Seig]

After discussing this with Bob, we have decided not to remove Ricardo's posts. We feel that would set a negative precedent.

 

[Kalicombat]

Seig, Mr. Billings, et al moderators:
Look at the numbers of posts before you started all this hardcore moderator crap on Martialtalk, and look at the numbers since. This is a forum, with all the players seperated by miles, computer screens, etc... People have a right to vent. You and Mr. Billings have ruined the Kenpo section of this forum by your Kindergarten Cop attitude. Let people Vent!! Look at how many new posts have started since you guys started monitoring everyones posts. They are down. I dont have the stats, but I know that this used to be a great forum. Lots of info, back and forth, and yes, at times, people said what they wanted, but it was busy, and it drew lots of kenpoists. NOT ANY LONGER. There is nothing wrong with keeping the posts clean, but you can not regulate peoples emotions. LIKE IT OR NOT, this thing of ours is an emotional thing as well as physical and for some of us spiritual. I think that you moderators have carried your duties too far. How are you gonna reguate how people feel about somehting they have dedicated years towards learning, perfecting, and growing in? You CANT.

If it was your intent to ruin this kenpo forum, congrats, you have succeeded.

I guess you'll "MOVE THIS TO A MORE APPROPRIATE ROOM", go for it.

Sincerely,
Gary Catherman
KENPOIST

 

[Rob Broad]

Gary

You have put into words what many have not been able to in the past. You stated your arguement clearly and concisely. I applaud your courage.

It is one thing to moderate against in appropriate language, attitude, and or post, it something else to moderate opinions. I have nothing against Mr. Billings or Seig, but I do agree that in the past thing here on MT have been over moderated. Having run a board that seemed to have have an anti moderation position, I have seen both sides of the spectrum, and neither is good. For a culture that prides itself on freedom of speech such as the American way of life there often seems to be a lack of coutesy to those who opine in a different manner or view.

Bod has created a good board here at MT, and while many of us have gone searching for greener pastures we have learned that they seldom exist. There will only be a great sharing of knowledge when people can learn to accept and learn from others opinions.

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Seig, Mr. Billings, et al moderators:
Look at the numbers of posts before you started all this hardcore moderator crap on Martialtalk, and look at the numbers since. This is a forum, with all the players seperated by miles, computer screens, etc... People have a right to vent. You and Mr. Billings have ruined the Kenpo section of this forum by your Kindergarten Cop attitude. Let people Vent!! Look at how many new posts have started since you guys started monitoring everyones posts. They are down. I dont have the stats, but I know that this used to be a great forum. Lots of info, back and forth, and yes, at times, people said what they wanted, but it was busy, and it drew lots of kenpoists. NOT ANY LONGER. There is nothing wrong with keeping the posts clean, but you can not regulate peoples emotions. LIKE IT OR NOT, this thing of ours is an emotional thing as well as physical and for some of us spiritual. I think that you moderators have carried your duties too far. How are you gonna reguate how people feel about somehting they have dedicated years towards learning, perfecting, and growing in? You CANT.

If it was your intent to ruin this kenpo forum, congrats, you have succeeded.

I guess you'll "MOVE THIS TO A MORE APPROPRIATE ROOM", go for it.

Sincerely,
Gary Catherman
KENPOIST

i have to agree with what you said right here. There are absolutely NO common sense here.

For example:

you said something in your post which doesn't contain any bad languages or call bad names.

I reply your post by "saying you insult" me. Your post is deleted immediately. wtf?????

and many more bad examples which I don't want to list here.

Your posts can be deleted because some *members*,NOT ALL members, don't like what you said. common. Where is common sense and good judgement???

In the past, you were allowed to do basic poll BUT not any more. You have to become *supporting member* which is not available to register

i have 2 great ideas and love to do polls. Oh yeah, they are good ideas. I have to wait to become *a supporting member* to do that.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Seig, Mr. Billings, et al moderators:
Look at the numbers of posts before you started all this hardcore moderator crap on Martialtalk, and look at the numbers since. This is a forum, with all the players seperated by miles, computer screens, etc... People have a right to vent. You and Mr. Billings have ruined the Kenpo section of this forum by your Kindergarten Cop attitude. Let people Vent!! Look at how many new posts have started since you guys started monitoring everyones posts. They are down. I dont have the stats, but I know that this used to be a great forum. Lots of info, back and forth, and yes, at times, people said what they wanted, but it was busy, and it drew lots of kenpoists. NOT ANY LONGER. There is nothing wrong with keeping the posts clean, but you can not regulate peoples emotions. LIKE IT OR NOT, this thing of ours is an emotional thing as well as physical and for some of us spiritual. I think that you moderators have carried your duties too far. How are you gonna reguate how people feel about somehting they have dedicated years towards learning, perfecting, and growing in? You CANT.

If it was your intent to ruin this kenpo forum, congrats, you have succeeded.

I guess you'll "MOVE THIS TO A MORE APPROPRIATE ROOM", go for it.

Sincerely,
Gary Catherman
KENPOIST

Sir,
I'm not certain exactly what brought this on, and I've been taking a more 'hands-off' approach to day-2-day moderation lately, focusing more on the technical side of things.

I do have to disagree with several points.

1- Post counts are down. - No, post counts are up. What has decreased in the art-specific forums is the wandering tangents, chit-chat and 'fluff'. We have specific areas for thost threads. This isn't it.

2-"KindergardenCop" - No, they are not. They are enforcing the guidelines and rules that -every registered member- of this forum agreed to follow when they signed up. Those rules cover such things as staying on topic, and staying civil. This thread -IS- off topic, and it is their job to steer it.

3-"Moving it to another 'room'" - Off topic posts are regularly pruned (read split off and combined into a new thread).

4- Venting, Ranting, etc - I'm sorry, but this isn't the place for an all-out tirade, personal vendettas, etc. Heated Debate is fine. Anarchy is not.

5- "Monitoring Posts" - To be honest, we've been -very- light on the moderation over the last few months. Why? Because we're swamped on the technical and administrative side at the moment, and really have no time to read -every- post in here.

You are entitled to your opinions.

i have to agree with what you said right here. There are absolutely NO common sense here.

For example:

you said something in your post which doesn't contain any bad languages or call bad names.

I reply your post by "saying you insult" me. Your post is deleted immediately. wtf?????

and many more bad examples which I don't want to list here.

Your posts can be deleted because some *members*NOT ALL don't like what you said. common. Where is common sense and good judgement???

What post was deleted? You say this is common. In checking the moderator logs I see no deletions in this forum. (The EPAK is under a stricter charter as is indicated in that forum, but I see -2- deletions in there since Feb 1)

If posts -are- being deleted, then I need to know so I can find out. Thats not our regular policy.



Now, it is my understanding that this thread is supposed to be about Mr. Will Tracy and an article he wrote. Not about moderation problems, bbs systems, or the personality issues of any of us. Please return to that subject and start a new thread in the appropriate forum for the other stuff. (Complaints about staff/moderation should be in the support forum, chitchat in the locker-room/UB&G/Study)

Good Evening.

 

[CoolKempoDude]

If posts -are- being deleted, then I need to know so I can find out. Thats not our regular policy.

i don't know if other posts were deleted in the past. I certainly know that mine were deleted because somebody else said *bad* even though my posts didn't contain any bad languages or call name.

some my posts were deleted in "question" and "Knife Techniques In The Kenpo System".

I hope I answer your question. Now we can get back to "Mr. Tracy" thread.

by the way, this thread should NOT be here. Why???? it should go to "EPAK" area.

AK people asked for a specific thread for their style and they got what they asked for.

I am sure this thread should be there NOT here.

Tracy brothers were ED's students. Therefore, it should go where it belongs UNLESS somebody here don't acknowledge Tracys were Ed's students.

please move it if you *feel* OK

 

[Bob Hubbard]

In the past, you were allowed to do basic poll BUT not any more. You have to become *supporting member* which is not available to register

i have 2 great ideas and love to do polls. Oh yeah, they are good ideas. I have to wait to become *a supporting member* to do that.

Yes, The ability to start a poll as well as upload attachments are restricted to the "Supporting Member"s.

Why?

Because this site requires money to operate, and I simply can not afford to keep funding it out of pocket. I asked for donations and got less than 12. (I think the total was 5 people donated funds) I funnel the revenues from my webhosting business and the magazine to keep this site operating, rather than fill my own pocket. I'm eating a $400 extra to setup this new server, which is -required- solely due to the demands placed on the existing server by this website. This new forum software alone cost $160. Donations, ad-revenue, sponsorships etc, did not meet the day-to-day operating costs.

I'm sorry if some people are pissed because a few features have been restricted and I'm asking those who find value in this site to help keep it running and growing. MartialTalk is a growing archive of the arts, with posts reaching back to day 1. To my knowledge, no other forum near our post count can claim that.

When I setup the "Supporter" system, I comped -everyone- who gave so much as $1 a full year.

So, I'm sorry if anyone is inconvenienced, but you can still use 90% of the board for free. The other 10% will remain a paid bonus for those who help pay the bills.

For those who are interested in becoming a Supporting Member, please see the post in the Admin Announcements forum for full details. (The static webpage is outdated and I haven't had time to update it yet.)

I'm sorry, I don't mean to rant here, but it's been a long day, so apologies if I misinterpreted your tone. I spent an hour on the phone today with someone screaming that I was "only out to rip everyone off, and make yourself rich on our poor backs", etc. etc. Its a sore subject with me.

 

[Rob Broad]

Yes, The ability to start a poll as well as upload attachments are restricted to the "Supporting Member"s.

Why?

Because this site requires money to operate, and I simply can not afford to keep funding it out of pocket. I asked for donations and got less than 12. (I think the total was 5 people donated funds) I funnel the revenues from my webhosting business and the magazine to keep this site operating, rather than fill my own pocket. I'm eating a $400 extra to setup this new server, which is -required- solely due to the demands placed on the existing server by this website. This new forum software alone cost $160. Donations, ad-revenue, sponsorships etc, did not meet the day-to-day operating costs.

I'm sorry if some people are pissed because a few features have been restricted and I'm asking those who find value in this site to help keep it running and growing. MartialTalk is a growing archive of the arts, with posts reaching back to day 1. To my knowledge, no other forum near our post count can claim that.

When I setup the "Supporter" system, I comped -everyone- who gave so much as $1 a full year.

So, I'm sorry if anyone is inconvenienced, but you can still use 90% of the board for free. The other 10% will remain a paid bonus for those who help pay the bills.

For those who are interested in becoming a Supporting Member, please see the post in the Admin Announcements forum for full details. (The static webpage is outdated and I haven't had time to update it yet.)

I'm sorry, I don't mean to rant here, but it's been a long day, so apologies if I misinterpreted your tone. I spent an hour on the phone today with someone screaming that I was "only out to rip everyone off, and make yourself rich on our poor backs", etc. etc. Its a sore subject with me.

Bob

I fully understand your daily headaches and to anyone who thinks it is easy running a board I say pull your head outof your *** and see what color the sky is, and a board of this magnitude is all that much harder to run.

Have some bubble tea, look at some Star Trek pics, and relax. Things will look much better in the morning.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Heh. Thanks Rob.

 

[Michael Billings]

Ya know guys, I probably like doing it less than ya'll do. None-the-less, this was the mandated way the EPAK forum was structured. You know, when we all voted on it and discussed it.

Anyhow, play in the Kenpo General forum, get rowdy, remember, it has to be PG-13 or a very low, low "R" rating. I have no problem with the criticism, I know it feels more moderated than it really is. Deleting posts just does not happen often. I think I have locked 2 threads since I started last year, and hate not being able to express myself without the "shadow" of being a moderator. I am what I am, a Kenpo-Guy to the core, with 25 years at the art, of Chinese (Tracy) and Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate. Almost 20 years in EPAK now.

Moan and groan all you want, I do the same ... but your perceptions are not accurate or valid in terms of actual interventions or deleting. I make few comments that I was not making before I became a mod. If anything, being a mad mod has limited some of the remarks I would have made. I have been censured for saying too much in a "warning", i.e. making it too personal ... which I could do as a member. Personally, you don't like it, you have CANAM or KenpoNet, both serving useful functions depending on your mood and maturity level that day.

I would say "get over it", but that is probably NOT politically correct ... and yes, this post may get deleted by an admin. I am responding personally to the 3 individuals who are griping about it. Hmmmm..... Guess not everyone jumped on the bandwagon, although I guess they still could.

I try to be reasonable, prudent, mature and judicious in my interventions; and when I do so as a Mod, it is only after exhausting the other remedies as a member trying to get something back on track or cooled off (remember, I used to do that anyway). It would have to be something pretty awful, or really, really inappropriate for me to say "frog" and try to make anyone jump.

Don't think other's have not objected and moved on ... it is really ok if this is not the forum for you. I was tired of the endless trash talking, slamming, and petty bickering, that was why I stick primarily to this forum and I have not forgotten why. I visit the other forums, I have good friends on both other Kenpo Forums and I respect them and their efforts, but hey guys, THEIR BOARD'S AIN'T OUR BOARD.
:jediduel:
Hope you find a amicable resolution to your problems with the Mod/Admin team. I am holding the line, trying to be consistant, and trying to enforce the rules at the minimum level ... with the exception of EPAK, which I try to enforce the less thread drift rule ONLY. When it gets too bad, I step in. I have plenty else to do with my time, and have to make a special effort to be here ... and it is because I like the comraderie, friendship, knowledge etc. most of the time. Some stuff gets as old to us, as it does to ya'll, what can I say? I try not to jump in on any Groundfighting thread the way I could as a member, oh well - "you can please most of the people, most of the time; but not everyone all of the time" AND "just because you are paranoid, does not mean someone is really not out to get you." Welcome to my world.
:idunno:
I am outta here for the night.
:soapbox:

-Michael

 

[Goldendragon7]

Seig, Mr. Billings, et al moderators:
Look at the numbers of posts before you started all this hardcore moderator crap on Martialtalk, and look at the numbers since. This is a forum, with all the players seperated by miles, computer screens, etc... People have a right to vent. You and Mr. Billings have ruined the Kenpo section of this forum by your Kindergarten Cop attitude. Let people Vent!! Look at how many new posts have started since you guys started monitoring everyones posts. They are down. I dont have the stats, but I know that this used to be a great forum. Lots of info, back and forth, and yes, at times, people said what they wanted, but it was busy, and it drew lots of kenpoists. NOT ANY LONGER. There is nothing wrong with keeping the posts clean, but you can not regulate peoples emotions. LIKE IT OR NOT, this thing of ours is an emotional thing as well as physical and for some of us spiritual. I think that you moderators have carried your duties too far. How are you gonna reguate how people feel about somehting they have dedicated years towards learning, perfecting, and growing in? You CANT.

If it was your intent to ruin this kenpo forum, congrats, you have succeeded.

I guess you'll "MOVE THIS TO A MORE APPROPRIATE ROOM", go for it.

Sincerely,
Gary Catherman
KENPOIST

Gary, Mr. Broad ~ critics et al.....

Moderation on any forum is no easy task, if the premise is to keep the posts civil and positive in nature, particularly with an Art such as Kenpo that many of us are so Passionate {or as you stated} "Emotional and Physical" about. Normal exchange of ideas or opinions is usually good, however, there have been several forums that have gone "off the deep end" [IMHO] and either have unending useless "urinary Olympiads" or get down right nasty towards each other, which the majority of followers do not enjoy.

Being able to "Vent" as you say, can be a good thing, as long as it is within reason, remains respectful and positive, with solutions to the problem and not just additional fanning of the flames!! In fact, you may have inspired me to ask the owner of the board for a special room just for that...... the Wailing, or Venting room! Here you can go scream , jump up and down, pound you hands on the floor, become as animated as you wish and throw all the tantrums you want in the company of like minded, then rejoin the forum after you have calmed down and "vented" a bit. This methodology usually leads to much classier and more intelligent posting as well.

Not always can one rate the quality of a forum on post counts alone, if there is endless garbage and banter, post counts can shoot thru the roof much like a wild out of control bar fight where everybody starts posting er... I mean punching in just to join in all the action! Remember opinions are like rear ends.... we all have 'em! I ask you to "consider instead", the quality of posts and positive feedback and knowledge that can be gained which I believe is more important and enjoyable and should be the goal of most of us, that log on.

The Trolls that do appear on ALL forums (less here due to the enforced moderation) are difficult if not impossible to eliminate totally but we can restrict to some degree their usual traits such as ..... personal insults, attacks, belt measuring contests, and chaos which do not conform to the standard we are trying to achieve here on Martial Talk. I believe that Mr. Billings, Mr. Seigel (notice I addressed both as Mr. not just one) and any of the other mods strive to keep this forum RESPECTFUL, positive and enjoyable. They (and I for that matter) do realize that this may not conform to everyone's agenda's all the time, but we try.

I understand the personal frustration that some may have (while I respect their opinions, I diametrically disagree) concerning this forum, fact of the matter is that MARTIAL TALK continues to be one of the best platforms for all Kenpoists to come and share, read, debate, post, discuss and learn about Kenpo..... that I have seen "LIKE IT OR NOT".

Gary and Rob, I really appreciate your viewpoints and opinions but on this one I respectfully disagree on all counts. :asian:

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