Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
CoolKempoDude said:
Oh man, sorry but... I absolutely refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent!
:lol:
Article by Mr. Will Tracy
- Thread starter Big Pat
- Start date
Oh man, sorry but... I absolutely refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent!
:lol:
KenpoDave
3rd Black Belt
Goldendragon7 said:
For whatever reason, questions about this series have resurfaced on a few message boards, this being one of them. Someone, I forget who, asked Dr. Sumner if he could post it on his website, and he did.
As to why would Dr. Sumner post this old letter, I shall let him speak for himself. The following quote can be found at Ricardo Castillo's Bravenet forum...
"In the study of history, whether recent or ancient, the student runs the risk of having their cherished beliefs shattered, their ideas and opinions questioned and even their feelings hurt. I am interested in our Kenpo history, but I have never attempted to impose my considered opinions upon anyone, nor do I require my students to learn any history.
I have posted many articles at many sites and will continue to post matters which I consider to be of interest and concern. Not to upset anyone nor to cause controversy, but for the consideration of all. If you do not like the article...move on. God forbid that you should spend one second of anxiety over something you do not believe. Or you may choose to challenge the article on the basis of fact. Lively debate can be higly stimulating.
Cognitive interest and intellectual honesty are the foundation of any successful learning experience. That which can be proven must be accepted in it's appropiate context. That which cannot be proven is resigned to stand as the opinion of the author. Take it for what it is worth to you, but take no offense from me."
Take a look at the thread on Ricardo's forum. Read the posts. Al Tracy has denounced this article to at least one person other than myself. To continue to make Will Tracy's article about Al Tracy is simply ignorant speculation. Well, until the fallacy is pointed out and referenced. Then it is simply lying. :asian:
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
KenpoDave said:
Yes, I just went there.... Danny and I talked and agreed (once again) and came to the same conclusion we had years ago......
Thanks for the post.
:asian:
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Interestingly, after bearding the lion (Mr. Sumner) on Ricardo's Tracy forum and confronting him about what I felt was thoughtless and irresponsible action ... AND ... receiving some rather inflated responses reqarding my cherished beliefs, etc, Ricardo decided that Tracy Seniors should not be rebuked in public. He then did a modest chastisement to that effect and deleted the pertinent parts of the thread ... er... That would be the parts where I mentioned to Mr. Sumner that the Will Tracy threads had been denounced by Al Tracy, that to re-publish them was, in my opinion, poor judgement and that I thought that seniors/masters are supposed to be more caring than interested in floating people to come ot their websites.
Therefore... I will say this on Martial Talk. That, as a Tracy practicioner, I feel compelled to say that I am embarrassed that this should rear its ugly head 4 or 5 years after the fact. It was unsubstantiated at the time of publication and to this day, remains in that state. I am embarrassed that someone who is a senior in my system appears to be more interested in the crass, National Enquirer mentality rather than setting good examples and doing a little ethical leading. The various pronouncements of innocence and ignorance of the facts, in no way, staid the hand of the person who, apparently, decided to stir the crap, yet again.
However, I believe that, in the final result, I am more incensed at Ricardo's handling of the issue which was achieving what Mr. Sumner said he wanted, lively debate. Mr. Castillo and his forum has, for me at any rate, lost total credibility, and his forum now, generally, falls under the heading of just another forum. It appears that pronouncements and opinions that are different from Ricardo's, even when not radical (and I can assure you that mine were not radical), are subject to deletion.
I hope that this is simply a tempest in a teapot and not indicative of a resurgence of the "we hate each other" school of thought that has been around for so long. Many of us have been working behind the scenes in various ways to try and get a continuous healing process going where, while we may never be one school of thought, at least we can respect one another, both in similarity and difference.
Sincerely,
Dan Farmer
Therefore... I will say this on Martial Talk. That, as a Tracy practicioner, I feel compelled to say that I am embarrassed that this should rear its ugly head 4 or 5 years after the fact. It was unsubstantiated at the time of publication and to this day, remains in that state. I am embarrassed that someone who is a senior in my system appears to be more interested in the crass, National Enquirer mentality rather than setting good examples and doing a little ethical leading. The various pronouncements of innocence and ignorance of the facts, in no way, staid the hand of the person who, apparently, decided to stir the crap, yet again.
However, I believe that, in the final result, I am more incensed at Ricardo's handling of the issue which was achieving what Mr. Sumner said he wanted, lively debate. Mr. Castillo and his forum has, for me at any rate, lost total credibility, and his forum now, generally, falls under the heading of just another forum. It appears that pronouncements and opinions that are different from Ricardo's, even when not radical (and I can assure you that mine were not radical), are subject to deletion.
I hope that this is simply a tempest in a teapot and not indicative of a resurgence of the "we hate each other" school of thought that has been around for so long. Many of us have been working behind the scenes in various ways to try and get a continuous healing process going where, while we may never be one school of thought, at least we can respect one another, both in similarity and difference.
Sincerely,
Dan Farmer
R
RCastillo
Guest
I appreciate the attention, though it's not quite what I wanted?
Let me clarify on some areas:
*The article as a whole was not posted on my site. Let me also say, I don't care about the history(Let others fight over it). We're all mortals, and all imperfect. All I care about is Kenpo, and teaching.
*I didn't rebuke any one person, it goes to all. It even says it before you enter to be nice.
*It someone were saying things about you Mr. Farmer, I would've done the same thing, stand up for you.
*What's wrong with being nice to one another? I don't like infighting, I've seen it much of my life. I did not ban you!
*I'm not gonna tell a Senior what to do.(not publicy anyway) I wasn't brought up that way. One time you even rebuked me for how MY site looked, guess what, I stayed silent, and keep my thoughts to myself. (even though the site is mine)
* So now, me, and my little tiny forum have no standing in your eyes. As a living, contributing human being I still count, like me, or not. If Kaith can control his own forum, then so can I.
*Maybe the blame lies on the person who took that link, and placed it elsewhere, like on Kenponet?
*Since you're the only voice for Tracy's on MT now, I'll do my best to stay out of your path.
Let me clarify on some areas:
*The article as a whole was not posted on my site. Let me also say, I don't care about the history(Let others fight over it). We're all mortals, and all imperfect. All I care about is Kenpo, and teaching.
*I didn't rebuke any one person, it goes to all. It even says it before you enter to be nice.
*It someone were saying things about you Mr. Farmer, I would've done the same thing, stand up for you.
*What's wrong with being nice to one another? I don't like infighting, I've seen it much of my life. I did not ban you!
*I'm not gonna tell a Senior what to do.(not publicy anyway) I wasn't brought up that way. One time you even rebuked me for how MY site looked, guess what, I stayed silent, and keep my thoughts to myself. (even though the site is mine)
* So now, me, and my little tiny forum have no standing in your eyes. As a living, contributing human being I still count, like me, or not. If Kaith can control his own forum, then so can I.
*Maybe the blame lies on the person who took that link, and placed it elsewhere, like on Kenponet?
*Since you're the only voice for Tracy's on MT now, I'll do my best to stay out of your path.
R
RCastillo
Guest
CoolKempoDude said:
"Tracy kenpo students seem to *agree* with this article after talking to them."
Not me. I don't care about history like that. :asian:
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Say what you will Ricard, if you are involved in an issue and are not part of the solution then you, by default, become part of the problem. Silence, in the face of an issue like the one I attempted to confront falls under that definition.
Having said that, I do not dislike you ... I never, one time, said that I dislike you. Simply, your handling of the matter in that manner simply lends an air of non-credibility to your effort in my eyes. You say one way and act another. That simply means that I will still buy you lunch if you ever show up in Missouri. I will, however, not waste time posting on your forum. Then again, I am only one opinion. I'm sure there are many people who would disagree.
I would not expect you to defend me on your forum. If I am incapable of defending myself, my posts or my actions that becomes my problem.
Had you banned me, it wouldn't matter. It would have then looked like a matter of your schmoozing up to Mr. Sumner.
A requested critique is not a rebuke. The one time I said anything critical of your forum was to indicate to you that it might be nice to not wipe out the monthly collection of posts so that we could keep a running track of what folks have posted. Sorry you considered that a rebuke. Especially in light of the fact that you asked, as I recall. But I am aging and that could be a mis-perception on my part.
Placing the blame on someone who may have posted a link does not take the blame off of the person who re-posted the letter to his forum in, what appears to be, a "National Enquirer" mode.
Sorry I bothered you Ricardo, just thought some folks who had read the originals might want to know what had happened.
Having said that, I do not dislike you ... I never, one time, said that I dislike you. Simply, your handling of the matter in that manner simply lends an air of non-credibility to your effort in my eyes. You say one way and act another. That simply means that I will still buy you lunch if you ever show up in Missouri. I will, however, not waste time posting on your forum. Then again, I am only one opinion. I'm sure there are many people who would disagree.
I would not expect you to defend me on your forum. If I am incapable of defending myself, my posts or my actions that becomes my problem.
Had you banned me, it wouldn't matter. It would have then looked like a matter of your schmoozing up to Mr. Sumner.
A requested critique is not a rebuke. The one time I said anything critical of your forum was to indicate to you that it might be nice to not wipe out the monthly collection of posts so that we could keep a running track of what folks have posted. Sorry you considered that a rebuke. Especially in light of the fact that you asked, as I recall. But I am aging and that could be a mis-perception on my part.
Placing the blame on someone who may have posted a link does not take the blame off of the person who re-posted the letter to his forum in, what appears to be, a "National Enquirer" mode.
Sorry I bothered you Ricardo, just thought some folks who had read the originals might want to know what had happened.
R
RCastillo
Guest
Sigung86 said:
Yes, there are two sides to this story as in all others. Then we are in agreement about one thing, we are then both "part of the solution, or part of the problem." It just depends on who you ask.
How can I be non credible, we come from the same organization, same teachers, and now I'm a non person?
If what you told Master Sumner on the forum is humor between the both of you (which both of you understood beforehand) then I do apologize! But it sounded like a put down, to me.
No one said that you can't defend yourself, I do that with my friends. If you think differently however, that's up to you. I still respect you, your rank, and experience. If you reject, think badly of me, I've lost nothing, because everything I have I earned.
The request about the posts on my forum is not what I'm referring to. Even then, it's my little place. Just like MT belongs to Kaith.
Just remember, it's on Master Sumners site, not mine.
BTW, if the truth be known, and Michael Coreleon said it best, "Senator, we're both of the same hypocrisy."(Kenponet) :asian:
C
CoolKempoDude
Guest
Goldendragon7 said:Ahahahaaahaahaaaaahaahaha..... you too funny dude..... :uhyeah:
It would take much more than a letter of this sort to damage any of our [those that you mentioned] reputations!! I find it ""unique"" that 14 years after Ed Parker has passed away that some people still try to discredit him, his system or his followers ......
** giggle ** If you say so......:btg:
:asian:
hey dragon7,
i hope *you* is not coolkempodude because I am way cooler than this.
Amen???? :boing2:
C
CoolKempoDude
Guest
Goldendragon7 said:
you are a gentleman
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
CoolKempoDude said:
Ah HA !!!!!!!!!! Then look what Ricardo said.......
RCastillo said:
Neener ...... Neener ...... Neener ...... Guess that shows that YOUR poll :rtfm:isn't worth the web its posted on....... LOL
Ahhhaaahahaahaahahaaaahahaaaahahaaaa:roflmao:
Maybe you should go practice spitting into the wind somewhere else....
:wavey:
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
CoolKempoDude said:
That's ~ "Golden" Dragon7 to you ....... peasant! :EG:
CoolKempoDude said:
NO, I am NOT some species of "coolkempodude" in any way shape or form.... yes I will give an AMEN to that !!!!!!!
:asian:
Talking to all who are reading this ....... hee hee NOW we know why Tigers eat their young !!!!!!! ** giggling uncontrollably ** :uhyeah:
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
Sigung86 said:
Thanks Dan, like many examples in life... friends and family don't always see "eye to eye" on all issues, but somehow when all is said and done, we maintain a "bond of brotherhood"!
:asian:
R
Rainman
Guest
Goldendragon7 said:
And you say I am too harsh on people- sheeesh :roflmao:
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
Rainman said:
LOL, now come on...... you don't really think that's Harsh ..... do you? It would take a lot more to "earn" the torrid emitting of the GoldenDragon's Odius, Noxious, [not to mention] Deadly Gas towards someone! :roflmao:
:asian:
artyon:
C
CoolKempoDude
Guest
feel much better. :uhyeah:
C
CoolKempoDude
Guest
Goldendragon7 said:
I can see Ricardo has a *different view*because *He* hang around too much with GOLDENDRAGON7.
I don't say hanging out with this golden dragon is the WORSE thing
I hate to say this. It is simply the BEST thing for RICARDO.
Ricardo, do you hear that???? hehehehehhe :boing2:
*gigling*
kenpo3631
Black Belt
After reading this article I can only say that the authors opinion is just that...opinion. He obviously did not thoroughly research his subject in a manner that would be considered one of a professional unbiased writer. See the example below...
What Ed Parker failed to realize is, he was reinventing the wheel. All his ideas, all of his concepts and precepts had been advanced, argued and attempted from the beginning Eastern and Western thought. Critics have pointed this out, and argue that if those concepts and principles are superior to any other system, then the system would dominate the sports aspect of kenpo. The fact that American kenpo has not produced one notable national champion caliber competitor in the 20 years of its existence raises serious doubts as to the effectiveness of American kenpo principles and training. But the strongest criticism of American kenpo is that many of its concepts and principles are not only flawed, but absurd.
Lee Wedlake Jr., a student of Ed Parker's holds the honor of being the first Parker Kenpo stylist to make the National Top Ten in men's black belt forms (Karate Illustrated Magazine, 1980 Yearbook). He controlled the top spot in Region Seven and won or placed in national and international events. He also held the number one ranking in the American Karate Association (AKA) standings for several consecutive years.
After watching himself on 16 mm film, Ed Parker played the film backward instead of rewinding it. From this Parker claimed to have discovered that reverse motion is the other half of motion. New and innovative? No! Absurd? Yes! Zenos argued the same matter 2,400 years ago. Homer advanced the concept when he had Odysseus redouble his path between Skylla and Charybdis. The concept had been ridiculed by Aglenoce when she sought to put an end to the cacodoxy of Orpheus, and the Zen masters put an end to the argument by saying, "The arrow released will not return." The concept of reverse motion has been used by film- makers since silent films to undo events for the audience, and change them. It is the "principle" upon which "time travel" is predicated, and the concept has been used by Star Trek, Superman, and countless other fantastic characters. The principle is, however, scientifically, unsound, and its application is impossible. Yet reverse motion is one of the "scientific principles" upon which American kenpo is founded. And there is not one proponent of American kenpo who can scientifically define reverse motion, or demonstrate its application. But even more fundamentally, those who know the Way of kenpo, and those who are in the Void, know " reverse motion " is not in the Way.
Reverse motion is absurd it is argued by the author. Merriam-Websters classifies a Theory as:
Main Entry: the·o·ry
Pronunciation: 'thE-&-rE, 'thi(-&)r-E
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theOria, from theOrein
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>
synonym see HYPOTHESIS
Does the Reverse Motion THEORY, fit any of those defenitions.....ummmm, YES!
Another American kenpo "scientific principles" which defies reason and application is "checking." In theory, "checking" allows the Kenpo student to anticipate the opponent's every possible use of every weapon and to prevent its use. In practical application, a 97 pound American kenpo master is not going to check (prevent) a 200 pound champion boxer, like Mike Tyson, from throwing a punch. He may anticipate the boxer's every move. But think about it. Have you ever seen a boxer "check" his opponent? Don't you think that where millions of dollars are at stake in a single boxing match, someone would have discovered the American kenpo technique of Checking and used it to prevent his opponent from even throwing a powerful punch? And again, "checking " is contrary to the Way of kenpo. It does not exist in the Void.
When fighters lock up in the middle of the ring or on the ropes, does that not constitute a "check"? If you read the definiton of a check in Mr. Parkers Infinite Insights, Vol. III, Ch. 3, pg. 5, para. 2, you will see that it does, especially in examples three and four; POSITION BLOCK (or CHECK) and PINNING BLOCK (or CHECK). The author (Tracy) clearly fails to realize that just because the pugilistic community never labeled it or gave it a term prior to Mr. Parker doesn't mean that they didn't know what it was or that they never applied the practice or principle.
I just cringe everytime someone bashes someone who cannot defend themself. Where was Will Tracy spouting this stuff when Mr. Parker was alive? All this article is, is a catylist to "stir the pot". It does not provide a complete or accurate portrayal of fact, nor does it promote anything positive. In MY opinion it is a jaded little man's cry for attention. :asian:
What Ed Parker failed to realize is, he was reinventing the wheel. All his ideas, all of his concepts and precepts had been advanced, argued and attempted from the beginning Eastern and Western thought. Critics have pointed this out, and argue that if those concepts and principles are superior to any other system, then the system would dominate the sports aspect of kenpo. The fact that American kenpo has not produced one notable national champion caliber competitor in the 20 years of its existence raises serious doubts as to the effectiveness of American kenpo principles and training. But the strongest criticism of American kenpo is that many of its concepts and principles are not only flawed, but absurd.
Lee Wedlake Jr., a student of Ed Parker's holds the honor of being the first Parker Kenpo stylist to make the National Top Ten in men's black belt forms (Karate Illustrated Magazine, 1980 Yearbook). He controlled the top spot in Region Seven and won or placed in national and international events. He also held the number one ranking in the American Karate Association (AKA) standings for several consecutive years.
After watching himself on 16 mm film, Ed Parker played the film backward instead of rewinding it. From this Parker claimed to have discovered that reverse motion is the other half of motion. New and innovative? No! Absurd? Yes! Zenos argued the same matter 2,400 years ago. Homer advanced the concept when he had Odysseus redouble his path between Skylla and Charybdis. The concept had been ridiculed by Aglenoce when she sought to put an end to the cacodoxy of Orpheus, and the Zen masters put an end to the argument by saying, "The arrow released will not return." The concept of reverse motion has been used by film- makers since silent films to undo events for the audience, and change them. It is the "principle" upon which "time travel" is predicated, and the concept has been used by Star Trek, Superman, and countless other fantastic characters. The principle is, however, scientifically, unsound, and its application is impossible. Yet reverse motion is one of the "scientific principles" upon which American kenpo is founded. And there is not one proponent of American kenpo who can scientifically define reverse motion, or demonstrate its application. But even more fundamentally, those who know the Way of kenpo, and those who are in the Void, know " reverse motion " is not in the Way.
Reverse motion is absurd it is argued by the author. Merriam-Websters classifies a Theory as:
Main Entry: the·o·ry
Pronunciation: 'thE-&-rE, 'thi(-&)r-E
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theOria, from theOrein
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>
synonym see HYPOTHESIS
Does the Reverse Motion THEORY, fit any of those defenitions.....ummmm, YES!
Another American kenpo "scientific principles" which defies reason and application is "checking." In theory, "checking" allows the Kenpo student to anticipate the opponent's every possible use of every weapon and to prevent its use. In practical application, a 97 pound American kenpo master is not going to check (prevent) a 200 pound champion boxer, like Mike Tyson, from throwing a punch. He may anticipate the boxer's every move. But think about it. Have you ever seen a boxer "check" his opponent? Don't you think that where millions of dollars are at stake in a single boxing match, someone would have discovered the American kenpo technique of Checking and used it to prevent his opponent from even throwing a powerful punch? And again, "checking " is contrary to the Way of kenpo. It does not exist in the Void.
When fighters lock up in the middle of the ring or on the ropes, does that not constitute a "check"? If you read the definiton of a check in Mr. Parkers Infinite Insights, Vol. III, Ch. 3, pg. 5, para. 2, you will see that it does, especially in examples three and four; POSITION BLOCK (or CHECK) and PINNING BLOCK (or CHECK). The author (Tracy) clearly fails to realize that just because the pugilistic community never labeled it or gave it a term prior to Mr. Parker doesn't mean that they didn't know what it was or that they never applied the practice or principle.
I just cringe everytime someone bashes someone who cannot defend themself. Where was Will Tracy spouting this stuff when Mr. Parker was alive? All this article is, is a catylist to "stir the pot". It does not provide a complete or accurate portrayal of fact, nor does it promote anything positive. In MY opinion it is a jaded little man's cry for attention. :asian:
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