Will Tracy Kenpo History Articles Link (AWESOME!)

[Brian Jones]

Of course, Ed Parker was a flawed human being. Technically that's an oxymoron. Being flawed is a part of the human condition. However what bothered me was the"daming with faint praise" that Tracy does. I would be fine with a straight forward "I knew Ed Parker and he as a dirty so and so" as oppossed to sounding hypocritical.
Jimmy Woo's invovlement would be interesting from a historical standpoint if it were true. First we have to accept that Will Tracy is accurate in his history, whcih we have already seen to be false (I believe he calls James Ibrao Mr. Parker's first black belt, instead of Charles Breeder). Then we have to believe that Mr. Parker was incapapable of creating his own forms, something many kenpo schools have their students do for black belt exams. That's a hard sell.

Brian Jones

 

[Goldendragon7]

You shut up too!

Hee hee ..... at least I know who said what..... LOL :ultracool Oh man.... this is too funny. I refuse to debate with an unarmed opponent.....lol

:asian:

 

[marshallbd]

Of course, Ed Parker was a flawed human being. Technically that's an oxymoron. Being flawed is a part of the human condition. However what bothered me was the"daming with faint praise" that Tracy does. I would be fine with a straight forward "I knew Ed Parker and he as a dirty so and so" as oppossed to sounding hypocritical.
Jimmy Woo's invovlement would be interesting from a historical standpoint if it were true. First we have to accept that Will Tracy is accurate in his history, whcih we have already seen to be false (I believe he calls James Ibrao Mr. Parker's first black belt, instead of Charles Breeder). Then we have to believe that Mr. Parker was incapapable of creating his own forms, something many kenpo schools have their students do for black belt exams. That's a hard sell.

Brian Jones

I believe that James Ibrao makes that same claim on his website.... http://www.thebelt.com/Home/home.htm I was not there and I do not know who was first or second or 100th and to me....it really makes no difference when they got it as much as how they got it (ie. earned or honorary or something in between). Just an unknown, unranked guy, who is at the very early stages of learning, who never the less, loves his new art of Kenpo! :asian:

 

[Doc]

Hee hee ..... at least I know who said what..... LOL :ultracool Oh man.... this is too funny. I refuse to debate with an unarmed opponent.....lol

:asian:

Me thinks some of these folks have multiple names - the themes are the same.

 

[marshallbd]

Me thinks some of these folks have multiple names - the themes are the same.

was that in reference to me? I meant no disrespect to anyone....I just saw that on his website and decided to post the link. I am sure it has been on this forum before but I don't know where.
And by the way, I have only one name here....Marshallbd (AKA...Beau David Marshall)

 

[M.C. Busman]

Obviously in post #16, have I misquoted Dennis Conastar as Ron Chapell . I apologize to both Ron and Dennis. That's what I get for staying up on the computer late, glancing at names, and using nicknames. My fault, I will be more observant and less impatient in the future. I have a sincere interest in history, and try to be thorough because I care. And really Dennis, just point out the obvious next time. Subtlety is lost on the blunt and tired.

Naming the wrong name aside, I stand by what I wrote. To make up for my boneheadedness, I'll post a nice consideration of the Ed Parker and James Wing Woo saga which I dedicate to the Kenpo Guys I confused.

(below)

 

[M.C. Busman]

Some of the Things we Know about James Wing Woo and Ed Parker

Some people dispute the fact that Ed Parker and James Wing Woo (no relation to Jimmy Woo of San Soo Kung Fu) left on less than friendly terms. Other than Will Tracy's article, there are several sources that hint strongly at an unfriendly split. If you have stronger evidence than this, feel free to post it.

1. Nowhere in "The Secrets of Chinese Karate" also published as "The Secrets of Karate" (1963) is James Wing Woo credited or mentioned.

2. In the November 1990 issue of Inside Kung Fu Lilia I Howe wrote an article titled, "James Wing Woo: Kung Fu's Unknown Pioneer". Woo is quoted as saying:

"We moved back from China in 1928, which was where I trained I had returned to the United States years later, and hadn't planned on exploiting my martial arts knowledge. What happened was I met a guy in Northern California who induced me to move south to the Hollywood area. He wanted to write a book with me. The guy ended up taking my work and running with it--I never got credit--but the students all wanted to study with me"(34)

James Woo doesn't name Ed Parker specifically, and doesn't seem too happy with the results of the relationship.

3. James Woo's website: www.tecnoscan.com/sifu/abhp1.html Woo says that he and a "...Kenpo Karate instructor in Pasadena" were [/i]"...writing the book together...[/i] while Woo was also teaching "gratis" (free) at the higher belt classes at the Pasadena Gym. Here, it simply says that James decided not to sign the book contract, and was planning on moving back to San Francisco but stayed because he was asked by a group of kenpo students to teach. Ed Parker isn't named here either.

4. In The Journey (2000-2001), Dr. Stevan Walton writes:

"The two men had an ill-fated martial arts partnership; it was inevitable that Parker, the creative, innovative rebel and Woo, the traditional Chinese master, would have conflicting approaches. After a year, they dissolved their partnership. Most of the advanced students (with the exception of Chuck Sullivan) went with Woo because they felt he had more to teach. Dave Hebler and Dan Inosanto stayed with Parker.While this was a painful experience, Parker used it to further develop the depth and breadth of his Kenpo curriculum. This initiated a period of explosive creativity in the development of Parker's Kenpo System." (10)

5. Is of course, Will Tracy's version. We can look at this from two perspectives, 1. That Will Tracy is just being honest and has nothing to lose by telling the truth as he remembers it, or 2. That he's intentionally slandering Ed Parker.

I don't see a motive for making up lies about Ed Parker. What would Will Tracy gain? He doesn't teach or make money from kenpo. Not only that, Ed Parker is in the Tracy Lineage. To degrade Parker's Kenpo is to degrade Tracy's kenpo. If anything, making a series of articles like this public would cause nothing but grief. Grief for the angry Parker loyalists who consider anything other than squeaky-clean and politically correct statements about the man to be the vilest debasement. Grief for guys who think their livelyhood or the quality of their style might be in question because suddenly people conditioned to think the martial arts are a great tool of moral and ethical teachings hear about less than perfect (normal human) behavior from (a) pivotal practitioner(s). Grief for James Woo who was doing his own thing just quietly (with a few hints here & there over the years). Grief for the Tracy Bros., because now their kenpo breatheren are madder than wet hens about what has been said--whether it is true or not. Grief for Will Tracy, who apparently abandoned his project after part 5 when the links were pulled from the Tracy's Kenpo site. Not to mention the inevitable spread of the Sex Cult story again . Not that he would care, from the folks I've spoken to...

The thing is, if events happened differently, if feelings were hurt and someone abandoned on a streetcorner without a nickel, I don't think James Woo would ever talk about this. He wouldn't really gain anything, and would probably have the whole kenpo world unhappy with him. He has loyal students and a nice school. He seems happy...so we are stuck with what little evidence we have.

James Wing Woo is about 81 years old now...

Other than someone who was actually there describing it, there isn't much more to do.

Check out James Ibrao's site for some gnarly pictures from "back in the day", including some that include Parker & Woo: http://www.thebelt.com/ go to the main page & scroll down for photo albums.

And if I hurt anyone's feelings, I just wanna letcha know...I have always thought Ed Parker was AWESOME, too. I have the infinate insights series (3 of which are signed), and think anyone with an interest in American martial arts should read them, whether or not you buy the theories.


Have a Terrific Weekend,

M.C. Busman

 

[Goldendragon7]

Some of the Things we Know about James Wing Woo and Ed Parker.... blah blah blah blah blahhhhhhhhhhhh
M.C. Busman

Ok..... and your point?

:idunno:

 

[John Bishop]

Two very common things I've seen in the martial arts over the years is:

1. That "falling outs" seem to happen quite often between people who were once friends, or student & instructor, or both. Just like life, people grow apart, or their ideas and goals on what they want in their future changes.

2. I've met very few long term martial artists that have only trained with one instructor, or in one style.

 

[KenpoDave]

I would have been much more surprised had there been no upheavals, no struggle, no jockying for position and power in American Kenpo (as with all other martial arts and many sports). These things exist in every organization--even the ones that claim to be pacifistic and peace loving. Desire for power and security is natural in most people. Did Will Tracy love Ed Parker as a teacher, as a friend? The two had a lot in common, and spent a lot of time together. Obviously the men were friends, in spite of Will Tracy & wife's lifestyle. I wouldn't criticize Will's individual memories of Parker and what he can recall any more that Leilani Parker's.


Keep it in Perspective,

M.C. Busman

I think you have grasped the point of the series.

 

[Doc]

was that in reference to me? I meant no disrespect to anyone....I just saw that on his website and decided to post the link. I am sure it has been on this forum before but I don't know where.
And by the way, I have only one name here....Marshallbd (AKA...Beau David Marshall)

Sir, no sir.

 

[marshallbd]

Sir, no sir.

Thanks Doc!

 

[Seig]

Some of the Things we Know about James Wing Woo and Ed Parker

Some people dispute the fact that Ed Parker and James Wing Woo (no relation to Jimmy Woo of San Soo Kung Fu) left on less than friendly terms. Other than Will Tracy's article, there are several sources that hint strongly at an unfriendly split. If you have stronger evidence than this, feel free to post it.

1. Nowhere in "The Secrets of Chinese Karate" also published as "The Secrets of Karate" (1963) is James Wing Woo credited or mentioned.

And this proves what? This is inference to a problem that you do not have first hand knowledge of; therefore, is hearsay.

2. In the November 1990 issue of Inside Kung Fu Lilia I Howe wrote an article titled, "James Wing Woo: Kung Fu's Unknown Pioneer". Woo is quoted as saying:

"We moved back from China in 1928, which was where I trained I had returned to the United States years later, and hadn't planned on exploiting my martial arts knowledge. What happened was I met a guy in Northern California who induced me to move south to the Hollywood area. He wanted to write a book with me. The guy ended up taking my work and running with it--I never got credit--but the students all wanted to study with me"(34)

James Woo doesn't name Ed Parker specifically, and doesn't seem too happy with the results of the relationship.

This seems to be saying, "He got the book, but I got the studens." Doesn't seem like sour grapes to me, besides, it's common knowledge that some students went with Mr Woo.

3. James Woo's website: www.tecnoscan.com/sifu/abhp1.html Woo says that he and a "...Kenpo Karate instructor in Pasadena" were [/i]"...writing the book together...[/i] while Woo was also teaching "gratis" (free) at the higher belt classes at the Pasadena Gym. Here, it simply says that James decided not to sign the book contract, and was planning on moving back to San Francisco but stayed because he was asked by a group of kenpo students to teach. Ed Parker isn't named here either.

Ok, Mr. Woo decides not to sign the contract, and according to Will Tracy that makes Ed Parker a thief. Let's look at something else, if there was/is so much bad blood between Woo and Parker, why does Woo refuse to name him as a bad person?

4. In The Journey (2000-2001), Dr. Stevan Walton writes:

"The two men had an ill-fated martial arts partnership; it was inevitable that Parker, the creative, innovative rebel and Woo, the traditional Chinese master, would have conflicting approaches. After a year, they dissolved their partnership. Most of the advanced students (with the exception of Chuck Sullivan) went with Woo because they felt he had more to teach. Dave Hebler and Dan Inosanto stayed with Parker.While this was a painful experience, Parker used it to further develop the depth and breadth of his Kenpo curriculum. This initiated a period of explosive creativity in the development of Parker's Kenpo System." (10)

Your point?

5. Is of course, Will Tracy's version. We can look at this from two perspectives, 1. That Will Tracy is just being honest and has nothing to lose by telling the truth as he remembers it, or 2. That he's intentionally slandering Ed Parker.

It is easy to intentionally slander someone when they are dead. Besides, this is not slander, it's lible.

I don't see a motive for making up lies about Ed Parker. What would Will Tracy gain?

Remember, this is the same family that is trying to elevate Mitose to Supreme Kenpo Mastery instead of the vermin that he was.

He doesn't teach or make money from kenpo. Not only that, Ed Parker is in the Tracy Lineage. To degrade Parker's Kenpo is to degrade Tracy's kenpo.

You would think they would have learned that by now, wouldn't you?

If anything, making a series of articles like this public would cause nothing but grief. Grief for the angry Parker loyalists who consider anything other than squeaky-clean and politically correct statements about the man to be the vilest debasement. Grief for guys who think their livelyhood or the quality of their style might be in question because suddenly people conditioned to think the martial arts are a great tool of moral and ethical teachings hear about less than perfect (normal human) behavior from (a) pivotal practitioner(s). Grief for James Woo who was doing his own thing just quietly (with a few hints here & there over the years). Grief for the Tracy Bros., because now their kenpo breatheren are madder than wet hens about what has been said--whether it is true or not. Grief for Will Tracy, who apparently abandoned his project after part 5 when the links were pulled from the Tracy's Kenpo site. Not to mention the inevitable spread of the Sex Cult story again . Not that he would care, from the folks I've spoken to...

Examine what you have written. Will Tracy is only spreading grief and his brother could only stomach so much of it; or more likely, Mrs. Parker's lawyer only stomached so much of it.

The thing is, if events happened differently, if feelings were hurt and someone abandoned on a streetcorner without a nickel, I don't think James Woo would ever talk about this.

Then what gives Will Tracy the right?

He wouldn't really gain anything,

Seems to me, that he gained more from the split with Parker than he lost with one book deal he refused to sign.

and would probably have the whole kenpo world unhappy with him. He has loyal students and a nice school. He seems happy...so we are stuck with what little evidence we have.

What evidence? You have nothing.

James Wing Woo is about 81 years old now...

Other than someone who was actually there describing it, there isn't much more to do.

Check out James Ibrao's site for some gnarly pictures from "back in the day", including some that include Parker & Woo: http://www.thebelt.com/ go to the main page & scroll down for photo albums.

And this pertains how?

And if I hurt anyone's feelings, I just wanna letcha know...I have always thought Ed Parker was AWESOME, too. I have the infinate insights series (3 of which are signed), and think anyone with an interest in American martial arts should read them, whether or not you buy the theories.


Have a Terrific Weekend,

M.C. Busman

If you think he was so awesome, why the caustic remarks?
All in all, I would give this try of supporting Will Tracy a D+, not quite a failure(at least the writing, if not the content was readable)....

 

[GAB]

Hi all,

To M. C. Busman.

Since you are talking about the article's like you have quite a bit of inside information.

I will ask you a question I asked "Doc", he did not answer when I presented it to him.

Regarding the Crest of SGMEP.
Will Tracy had a sad story in one of his article's that said, a man named Dick Tercell actually designed the crest, showed it to several persons, because he did not want to get the same treatment similar to the Jimmy Wing Woo incident (Will's statements).

Dick Tercell hung himself (some say accidently, some say not). This is not something that is widely known, (because I have tried to check it out).

It is another story that is floating around and should receive some discussion.

What is your take on this sad story?

Regards, Gary

 

[M.C. Busman]

Michael Seigel wrote: "And this proves what? This is inference to a problem that you do not have first hand knowledge of; therefore, is hearsay."

Reply: That isn't quite correct. Ed Parker's book, "Secrets of Chinese Karate" omits any mention of Woo. This is a standing fact which has nothing to do with "hearsay". Thus far, the sources I've cited are all we know of...no-one who was there first hand has come forward yet (we can hope though, right? Several men who were there are still living).

On the subject of "hearsay", the belief that the breakup between these two men was friendly is also hearsay, and due less weight as thus far, no-one who was actually there has offered any testimony to counter the statements of James Woo in two different sources.

Are you sure you want to go down that road? Everything you or any other kenpo person says regarding the statements, actions, and teachings of Mr. Parker is hearsay...and thus should be disregarded?

Michael Seigel wrote: "This seems to be saying, "He got the book, but I got the studen[t]s." Doesn't seem like sour grapes to me, besides, it's common knowledge that some students went with Mr Woo."

Reply: Sure. Your opinion as to what it means is as valuable as mine.

Michael Seigel wrote: "Ok, Mr. Woo decides not to sign the contract, and according to Will Tracy that makes Ed Parker a thief. Let's look at something else, if there was/is so much bad blood between Woo and Parker, why does Woo refuse to name him as a bad person?"

Reply: Maybe you missed the part in the Howe interview where Woo said, "The guy ended up taking my work and running with it--I never got credit--but the students all wanted to study with me" (Inside Kung Fu, November 1990:34)? Nobody used the term "thief", but at the very least, Ed Parker did have a BS in Sociology from Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah. He should have known that not crediting sources = bad. As for Mr. Woo, he may be perfectly content to let it go. But I'm a busybody, like most history buffs

Michael Seigel wrote: "Your point?"

Reply: You're an intelligent guy. I'm sure you'll figure it out

Michael Seigel wrote: "It is easy to intentionally slander someone when they are dead. Besides, this is not slander, it's lible.

Reply: When people die they become off limits? Would that include Adolf Hitler? And no, that was not intended to be a comparison to anyone in the kenpo world. Just pointing out the ill-logic of deifying the dead. Defamation might be an even better term than libel, but can you show how a libel or how defamation occurred? No-one seems able to do this. If avoiding such things makes you happy, that's your decision, that's fine. Sanctifying people in a politically correct word of perfect reverence is not my cup of tea. A few imperfections, as will the case of Mr. Parker, do not obscure the big picture or dim his accomplishments for me.

Michael Seigel wrote: "Remember, this is the same family that is trying to elevate Mitose to Supreme Kenpo Mastery instead of the vermin that he was."

Reply: I recall one of the Tracy's posted something like "no Mitose, No Kenpo" (I paraphrase from memory). Let's see. Mitose (and others) taught William Chow an art called "kenpo", or "kempo" (I'm not getting into that now). Ed Parker studied this art, "kenpo" with William Chow over several different periods of time around the late '40's and early '50's. There really isn't any way to remove Mitose from the Parker lineage, is there? Parker found Mitose's criminal actions reprehensible (according to statements he made in at least one interview), and apparently from material on the Tracy's Kenpo website (and even Will Tracy's writings ), so did the Tracy's--at least Al and whoever set the website up. Where is the evidence to show that as you put it, Tracy's "elevated Mitose to Supreme Kenpo Mastery"?

Michael Seigel wrote: "Examine what you have written. Will Tracy is only spreading grief and his brother could only stomach so much of it; or more likely, Mrs. Parker's lawyer only stomached so much of it."

Reply: Now you're speculating that Leilani Parker may have taken some kind of legal action. Have you proof, or at least circumstantial evidence, or is this more wishful thinking on your part?

Michael Seigel wrote: "Then what gives Will Tracy the right?"

Reply: Hmmm. In the United States, folks have the right to opinions, to present their version of things as they remember them. Even if that version makes certain other folks fidgety.

Michael Seigel wrote: "What evidence? You have nothing."

Reply: Evidence? Michael, I've posted my sources. Where are yours? Or anyone else's for that matter? Thus far you and others have displayed a complete inability to posit a single well thought out refutation on anything in the Will Tracy 5-part series...or any of the sources I have posted regarding James Wing Woo, for that matter. Don't you think that if something is incorrect and one has the knowledge to provide the correct information, the offending article(s) should be taken down point by point to put it to rest once and for all? Or can't anyone do this?

Michael Seigel wrote: "And this pertains how?"

Reply: Well now, if ya wanna see what James Ibrao is doin' now, or have a peek at some nifty historical pics, ya can click the link (convenient, huh?).

Michael Seigel wrote: "If you think he was so awesome, why the caustic remarks?[...] All in all, I would give this try of supporting Will Tracy a D+, not quite a failure(at least the writing, if not the content was readable)....

Reply: I don't consider my tone to have been caustic--if you read hostility into my words, that's your doing. I write as I write because I serve the facts, Michael. Not wishful thinking, peer pressure, or a "cause" which would require me to check my reasoning capabilities. Respect doesn't mean refusing to acknowledge history. I can respect men like Mitose, Parker, the Tracy bros., and others for what they did for the art--and acknowledge the rest of their lives sweet and sordid, too. Should evidence to the contrary surface showing Ed Parker and James Wing Woo secretly remained the best of pals, that there is a Vast Tracy's conspiracy, or that everything Will Tracy said is bunk, it won't distress me. I'm in it to figure out history--not hide it.

Additionally, I thank you for your academic consideration. Your opinion is important to me, whether it is based on emotion or fact.


Y'all Take Care!

M.C. Busman []):^)

 

[Brian Jones]

No, who received their black belt first doesn't matter. But my point is shoddy research or misstatements in one arena casts doubts on the entire thing. As far as "who was first" I thinkthere is a thread tlaking about that issue somewhere on Martialtalk.

Brian Jones

 

[tshadowchaser]

Interesting article.
Not being involved in Kenpo for years I have no idea what is true and what is not but all in all an interesting article

 

[distalero]

Well.......according to Will Tracy's catagorization I came along during the "Traditional Kenpo" period (1969-70). We didn't call it that, of course, and I don't know if you American Kenpo folks use this term or not. I sadly watched the transition to "Early American Kenpo"... which of course is my term (sounds like they wore starched white collars and silver buckles on their shoes, doesn't it) at some point in '74 if I remember correctly. I say sadly because the name of the game was to hire anybody, and I mean anybody (they had some "nutritionist" teaching the intermediate class), to come in off the street and teach by rote out of the then new Parker belt program manuals. (Somewhere I have the local newspaper clipping with the add offering a job to anyone with any sort of martial arts backround). My teacher had left already, (I'm assuming because he declined the new shuffle) and I was about to follow him, but stuck around long enough to see what the hoopla was about. Wasn't impressed.
How does any of this pertain to this thread? During that transition a lot of inevitable scuttlebut was whispered, in justification for "this", and condemnation of "that", and Will Tracy's articles refer to some of the stuff that was being repeated even then. Is, or was, much of it true?. Based on the fact that at that point we were standing ankle deep in an obvious rip off of the public in general, and Kenpo students specifically, then I'd have to say some of it was, probably.
Now that I think about it, this post just as easily belongs in the lineage thread. You have to wonder about that nutritionist. Do his students call him Grand Master Chef, of the pinenut school?

 

[Seig]

Michael Seigel wrote: "And this proves what? This is inference to a problem that you do not have first hand knowledge of; therefore, is hearsay."

Reply: That isn't quite correct. Ed Parker's book, "Secrets of Chinese Karate" omits any mention of Woo. This is a standing fact which has nothing to do with "hearsay". Thus far, the sources I've cited are all we know of...no-one who was there first hand has come forward yet (we can hope though, right? Several men who were there are still living).

There is no mention of Woo, that is undisputed. What also is not disputed is that Master Woo, decided not to sign the publishing contract. That means he gave up all rights to the book. Nice, no; legal yes. The one fact that remains is that the one living person that knows for fact what happened, isn't telling. That means the rest of it is speculation and hearsay. Will Tracy himself writes, "I do not claim what I write be absolutely correct."

On the subject of "hearsay", the belief that the breakup between these two men was friendly is also hearsay, and due less weight as thus far, no-one who was actually there has offered any testimony to counter the statements of James Woo in two different sources.

And what are the statements of Woo? http://www.tecnoscan.com/sifu/abhp2.html That link is one of your sources, and it says nothing other than what I conceded. Your quote from the Journey says nothing more than they dissolves their partnership due to a differnece of approaches.

Are you sure you want to go down that road? Everything you or any other kenpo person says regarding the statements, actions, and teachings of Mr. Parker is hearsay...and thus should be disregarded?

Actually, this is incorrect. There are printed writings from Mr. Parker, interviews, and video tapes of him. None of this is hearsay, but verifiable fact.

Michael Seigel wrote: "This seems to be saying, "He got the book, but I got the studen[t]s." Doesn't seem like sour grapes to me, besides, it's common knowledge that some students went with Mr Woo."

Reply: Sure. Your opinion as to what it means is as valuable as mine.

Opinion is the key word here, opinion is not fact.

Michael Seigel wrote: "Ok, Mr. Woo decides not to sign the contract, and according to Will Tracy that makes Ed Parker a thief. Let's look at something else, if there was/is so much bad blood between Woo and Parker, why does Woo refuse to name him as a bad person?"

Reply: Maybe you missed the part in the Howe interview where Woo said, "The guy ended up taking my work and running with it--I never got credit--but the students all wanted to study with me" (Inside Kung Fu, November 1990:34)?

Again, since there is no link to the entire article, and I have only your quote, which may or may not be in context, it is subjective. I take my instructor's work and "run with it" all the time. The question here is, Did Mr. Woo ask for credit?

Nobody used the term "thief", but at the very least, Ed Parker did have a BS in Sociology from Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah. He should have known that not crediting sources = bad.

You are accusing Ed Parker of plagiarism. I guess that is your right. Once again, this is splitting legal hairs, as Mr. Woo did not persue it.

As for Mr. Woo, he may be perfectly content to let it go. But I'm a busybody, like most history buffs

That would be fine if your findings were objective, but they are not. Will Tracy is a liar. He says, "Does this make me a liar because I said Ed stopped teaching?" The answer to that is yes. Ask Dennis Conatser if Mr. Parker stopped teaching.

Michael Seigel wrote: "Your point?"

Reply: You're an intelligent guy. I'm sure you'll figure it out

Ed Parker had a lot of students leave him over the years, most instructors do.

Michael Seigel wrote: "It is easy to intentionally slander someone when they are dead. Besides, this is not slander, it's lible.

Reply: When people die they become off limits? Would that include Adolf Hitler? And no, that was not intended to be a comparison to anyone in the kenpo world. Just pointing out the ill-logic of deifying the dead.

I never said he was off limits because he was dead. I am not deifying Ed Parker; nor do I think Adolph Hitler is a relevant comparison.

Defamation might be an even better term than libel, but can you show how a libel or how defamation occurred?

Lible is the defamation of character in writing in a public venue. Will Tracy cannot prove his statements. His so called "proof" is "not one has yet to make an 'offer of proof' that anything I have written is incorrect." Will is using proving a negative as proof positive. :bs:

No-one seems able to do this.

That would be up to the estate, not me.

If avoiding such things makes you happy, that's your decision, that's fine. Sanctifying people in a politically correct word of perfect reverence is not my cup of tea. A few imperfections, as will the case of Mr. Parker, do not obscure the big picture or dim his accomplishments for me.

The only thing I am avoiding is unmitigated ********. I have never sanctified anyone. Mr. Parker's personal imperfections have no bearing on me as a Kenpoist. What does have bearing is the system he left behind for people like me. The attacks made on him by people like Will Tracy are a transparent attempt to discredit the system by discreditng the man. That obviosuly cannot be done, as you say yourself.

Michael Seigel wrote: "Remember, this is the same family that is trying to elevate Mitose to Supreme Kenpo Mastery instead of the vermin that he was."

Reply: I recall one of the Tracy's posted something like "no Mitose, No Kenpo" (I paraphrase from memory). Let's see. Mitose (and others) taught William Chow an art called "kenpo", or "kempo" (I'm not getting into that now). Ed Parker studied this art, "kenpo" with William Chow over several different periods of time around the late '40's and early '50's. There really isn't any way to remove Mitose from the Parker lineage, is there?

I never made an attempt to remove Mitose, but as it has been said, what Chow taught Parker is small in comparison to what we have now. Mitose does not have a direct hand in this.

Parker found Mitose's criminal actions reprehensible (according to statements he made in at least one interview), and apparently from material on the Tracy's Kenpo website (and even Will Tracy's writings ), so did the Tracy's--at least Al and whoever set the website up.

Finally, some common understanding.

Where is the evidence to show that as you put it, Tracy's "elevated Mitose to Supreme Kenpo Mastery"?

http://www.tracyskarate.com/History/Yoshioda.htm
The Tracy's are making Mitose out to be something that has been proven false. He was a conman and a killer. His "history/lineage" is not proven as they would have you believe. There are literally dozens of discussions on that, and I am not going to rehash them all.

Michael Seigel wrote: "Examine what you have written. Will Tracy is only spreading grief and his brother could only stomach so much of it; or more likely, Mrs. Parker's lawyer only stomached so much of it."

Reply: Now you're speculating that Leilani Parker may have taken some kind of legal action. Have you proof, or at least circumstantial evidence, or is this more wishful thinking on your part?

There is no "wishful thinking" on my part, Leilani Parker had much litigiation going on after he husband's passing. I would be very much surprised if she did not file some kind of suit. She may not have, I don't know. The known fact is, Al Tracy removed these articles from his website.

Michael Seigel wrote: "Then what gives Will Tracy the right?"

Reply: Hmmm. In the United States, folks have the right to opinions, to present their version of things as they remember them. Even if that version makes certain other folks fidgety.

The only thing that makes me fidgety is when people take crap for gospel.

Michael Seigel wrote: "What evidence? You have nothing."

Reply: Evidence? Michael, I've posted my sources. Where are yours? Or anyone else's for that matter? Thus far you and others have displayed a complete inability to posit a single well thought out refutation on anything in the Will Tracy 5-part series...or any of the sources I have posted regarding James Wing Woo, for that matter. Don't you think that if something is incorrect and one has the knowledge to provide the correct information, the offending article(s) should be taken down point by point to put it to rest once and for all? Or can't anyone do this?

I say again, you have nothing. I have examined the "sources" with the exception of the Inside Kung-Fu article you quoted. Maybe, just maybe, the people that do know the inside story stay quiet because there is no point in arguing with a fanatic or someone whose mind is made up.

Michael Seigel wrote: "And this pertains how?"

Reply: Well now, if ya wanna see what James Ibrao is doin' now, or have a peek at some nifty historical pics, ya can click the link (convenient, huh?).

What James Ibrao is doing now is irrelevant. The pics are indeed "nifty".

Michael Seigel wrote: "If you think he was so awesome, why the caustic remarks?[...] All in all, I would give this try of supporting Will Tracy a D+, not quite a failure(at least the writing, if not the content was readable)....

Reply: I don't consider my tone to have been caustic--if you read hostility into my words, that's your doing. I write as I write because I serve the facts, Michael. Not wishful thinking, peer pressure, or a "cause" which would require me to check my reasoning capabilities. Respect doesn't mean refusing to acknowledge history. I can respect men like Mitose, Parker, the Tracy bros., and others for what they did for the art--and acknowledge the rest of their lives sweet and sordid, too. Should evidence to the contrary surface showing Ed Parker and James Wing Woo secretly remained the best of pals, that there is a Vast Tracy's conspiracy, or that everything Will Tracy said is bunk, it won't distress me. I'm in it to figure out history--not hide it.

This isn't about a vast Tracy conspiracy, this is about the ravings of one man, Will Tracy. Will Tracy is not a Parker black belt, nor is he a Tracy black belt. This alone, at least to me, speaks volumes. Al Tracy offers nothing one way or the other on the subject.

Additionally, I thank you for your academic consideration. Your opinion is important to me, whether it is based on emotion or fact.


Y'all Take Care!

M.C. Busman []):^)

Your welcome. One final point, I would have to known the man to base my opinions on emotion.

 

[Zoran]

M.C. Busman,

I've been watching your posts here and in other forums. I understand your thirst for knowledge especially in history. It's something we share so I do have some experience in this. But here is my advise if you are willing to take it.

First I would like to say, there is nothing wrong with posting resources that you find. But if you wish to learn something about history of Kenpo and the people behind it, you will not find answers in debate.

You must understand something very important. Ed Parker may be a name to you (or a historical figure), but to his old students, that was their instructor. So what that means, there is a strong bond and love there to the man, and articles such as this and trying to create a debate about it, only brings a feeling of disrespect or attack on a loved one.

As I said, I've a bit of experience in researching history. Here is the better route. Lets take this for example;

• I would call, not write, the people who would know.
• Then I would just ask questions, about what they remember what happened back then.
• The questions would always be respectfull and I will not argue, only listen and write it down.
• After which, do it again with someone else that was there and repeat as necessary.
• After you have enough information, you compare notes and see where the truth may be (if it can be found).
• If you are inclined, write your own article on the notes you took.
• Post it on some a website, and let someone else find it and argue about it.

Here is the deal, debate about these types of things will not bring forward the people who really know. It will only alienate the poeple that could help you. I myself have looked into some of the Jimmy Woo/Ed Parker connection. What I did is call people. Such as Ibrao, as well as a few others. Many didn't want to talk to me at first, but I was persistant (more like a pain in the ****).

Anyways, this is just some advise. My opinion is that the truth is important. But, you won't find it with a bulldozer, it will only bury it deeper.