Are you really training for self defense?

[Dirty Dog]

sure you can. Go be a dink to random people and when they are about to hit you, try to talk your way out of it.

I think it's safe to say that most people would agree that self defense skills include NOT 'being a dink to random people' to the point that they commit assault. Not being a dink to random people is, in my experience, amazingly effective at avoiding assaults.

 

[Martial D]

I think it's safe to say that most people would agree that self defense skills include NOT 'being a dink to random people' to the point that they commit assault. Not being a dink to random people is, in my experience, amazingly effective at avoiding assaults.

If you read the post I quoted (ie, the context), you would realize I was responding to his comment about how to actually pressure test these completely theoretical ideas. Can you think of a better way?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think it's safe to say that most people would agree that self defense skills include NOT 'being a dink to random people' to the point that they commit assault. Not being a dink to random people is, in my experience, amazingly effective at avoiding assaults.

And an essential component in being able to de-escalate.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you read the post I quoted (ie, the context), you would realize I was responding to his comment about how to actually pressure test these completely theoretical ideas. Can you think of a better way?

But even that isn't a good test. De-escalation is pretty likely to fail if you first escalate. It's much more likely to work if you start from neutral.

 

[Flying Crane]

Extremely rare? Missing out on reality? Are you insane? Do you keep up with things in life?
I suspect that you have never had to fend off 6 at a time, or had to dodge a car, that was trying to run you down. I have, and things like that are not as rare as an armchair general presumes them to be. Your response is typical of such warriors, soft talk, and no fight. My reality has been one where violence was used as a lever, by thugs.

In closing, I am of the Bruce Lee line of thought, if it ain't good for fighting, dump it. You do not prove fighting ability by running away and hiding. Nor do you prove it by being foolhardy, there is a median, and I am close to that median. As far as what you have to say, I dismiss it as presumption. Can you make sense of what you see and read?

Ah. Clearly you know best.

 

[Martial D]

But even that isn't a good test. De-escalation is pretty likely to fail if you first escalate. It's much more likely to work if you start from neutral.

Well sure, but the training should be harder than the thing you are training for right? Tell the next group of leather clad gentlemen on large American motorcycles they look like a gaggle of homosexuals. If you can come back from that you can consider de-escalation tested.

Yes, for those Uber serious folk, I'm kidding, but only because the whole subject of training 'de-escalation' is a bit silly..unless of course you are one of the ones $collecting$ from the sale of this completely untestable "skill".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well sure, but the training should be harder than the thing you are training for right? Tell the next group of leather clad gentlemen on large American motorcycles they look like a gaggle of homosexuals. If you can come back from that you can consider de-escalation tested.

Yes, for those Uber serious folk, I'm kidding, but only because the whole subject of training 'de-escalation' is a bit silly..unless of course you are one of the ones $collecting$ from the sale of this completely untestable "skill".

Only doing that if I have Clyde with me.

 

[geezer]

...Tell the next group of leather clad gentlemen on large American motorcycles they look like a gaggle of homosexuals...

You might not get a negative response. Everything depends on context:

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You might not get a negative response. Everything depends on context:

Most of the leather clad gentlemen on large American motorcycles I've known (and I knew quite a few back in the days when I didn't own a car) would have been unoffended, at the worst. Some would laugh at the counter-stereotype, some would appreciate the irony, and some would just say, "Well, yeah." Generally speaking, most of the leather-clad folks I've known were more or less just people who thought leather looked cool on a motorcyle. They were right - I know, because I wore it, too.

 

[Juany118]

Alot of Situational awareness and prevention is just about common sense and not being in such a hurry to ignore best practices.

Exactly. Example... Prevention>common sense. If you just HAVE to go to that hot new Gastropub or Club in a gentrified section that borders the "shady" neighborhood, don't park on the street in the Shady neighborhood just to save some bucks. Part in the well lit and monitored parking lot/garage. Yeah it costs you some money you could otherwise spend on a couple other drinks but that can be the difference between simply walking by other patrons of the businesses between your destination and the car OR walking through the neighborhood your head BETTER be on a swivel in.

 

[Juany118]

If you read the post I quoted (ie, the context), you would realize I was responding to his comment about how to actually pressure test these completely theoretical ideas. Can you think of a better way?

It's possible to train it, but tricky. I believe de-escalation training would actually work in a seminar where most participants are actually strangers, or close to it. I'll use a non-self defense example.

I am a certified crisis intervention specialists. I don't work in Philly but have a friend who was one of their negotiators and was on the Philly Joint Terrorism task force. He asked me to be a role player, not only because of my training but we both used to share a hobby of amature Theater Acting. For each group my scenario was to be a man prepared to jump from an office building. I knew that my character's motivation was that I had lost my wife the year before and I just got a call my son had died in a car crash. One negotiator, instead of taking their time and starting from neutral he went straight to "what would family think? What would your wife think? Do you have a kid?" I tried to be nice at first, a good partner, showing it was aggitatin me, that I was getting profoundly upset. He kept pushing, so I jumped. That scenario training may well not have worked the same way as people I work with because they know how I react to emotional stimuli. That would give them an "edge" in reading me that you don't get in a typical self-defense situation. So I think it's doable, if you set up realistic scenarios with strangers as role players who are good at what they do.

I also think people look at de-escalation too narrowly. By this I mean a crime might still occur. Example he maybe on the verge of shooting me but my remaining calm and saying "you want the keys to my car? That's fine, here you go" is de-escalation, I didn't get shot. Saying "yo man, I'm sorry I didn't mean to spill your drink, let me buy another round for you and your friends", same thing. In either case I "gave up" something but really in self defense that is what de-escalation is about. You will never get the guy intent on robbery to stop wanting to rob you just with words. You won't get the "beer muscle" barfly who is now embarrassed and needs to regain status among his companions just with words.

The other party is already prepared for violence to GET something. They want your keys, they want to regain face. If they don't get something they will use that violence to get it. The trick is to be able to read what it is they are looking for and give it to them in one way or another. Maybe with the robber you say "hey man I took the train, but here I got some cash in my wallet, or here, it's a [insert top of the line cell phone]. I can cancel my cards, the cash, if I am carrying more than my deductible, is covered by my home owners. The cellphone, they don't have my thumbprint, will never figure out my goofy password and I can turn it into a brick as soon as I get to my computer...and it's insured too through my provider. That, to me, is one of the tricks of de-escalation, understanding that dynamic and that, in the end, what did a really lose? Some replaceable property that's likely ensured? A little bit of pride? I didn't get shot, seems a fair trade.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's possible to train it, but tricky. I believe de-escalation training would actually work in a seminar where most participants are actually strangers, or close to it. I'll use a non-self defense example.

I am a certified crisis intervention specialists. I don't work in Philly but have a friend who was one of their negotiators and was on the Philly Joint Terrorism task force. He asked me to be a role player, not only because of my training but we both used to share a hobby of amature Theater Acting. For each group my scenario was to be a man prepared to jump from an office building. I knew that my character's motivation was that I had lost my wife the year before and I just got a call my son had died in a car crash. One negotiator, instead of taking their time and starting from neutral he went straight to "what would family think? What would your wife think? Do you have a kid?" I tried to be nice at first, a good partner, showing it was aggitatin me, that I was getting profoundly upset. He kept pushing, so I jumped. That scenario training may well not have worked the same way as people I work with because they know how I react to emotional stimuli. That would give them an "edge" in reading me that you don't get in a typical self-defense situation. So I think it's doable, if you set up realistic scenarios with strangers as role players who are good at what they do.

I also think people look at de-escalation too narrowly. By this I mean a crime might still occur. Example he maybe on the verge of shooting me but my remaining calm and saying "you want the keys to my car? That's fine, here you go" is de-escalation, I didn't get shot. Saying "yo man, I'm sorry I didn't mean to spill your drink, let me buy another round for you and your friends", same thing. In either case I "gave up" something but really in self defense that is what de-escalation is about. You will never get the guy intent on robbery to stop wanting to rob you just with words. You won't get the "beer muscle" barfly who is now embarrassed and needs to regain status among his companions just with words.

The other party is already prepared for violence to GET something. They want your keys, they want to regain face. If they don't get something they will use that violence to get it. The trick is to be able to read what it is they are looking for and give it to them in one way or another. Maybe with the robber you say "hey man I took the train, but here I got some cash in my wallet, or here, it's a [insert top of the line cell phone]. I can cancel my cards, the cash, if I am carrying more than my deductible, is covered by my home owners. The cellphone, they don't have my thumbprint, will never figure out my goofy password and I can turn it into a brick as soon as I get to my computer...and it's insured too through my provider. That, to me, is one of the tricks of de-escalation, understanding that dynamic and that, in the end, what did a really lose? Some replaceable property that's likely ensured? A little bit of pride? I didn't get shot, seems a fair trade.

I agree with all of that, Juany. Some of that I've not considered inside the term "de-escalation" before, but I think it's better classified that way for the reasons you point out. Aside from folks who are in danger routinely (bouncers, LEO), however, there's still not much opportunity to practice with resistance. Role playing can be a close second to that, but only when the partner is able to react by playing the part well. Most folks don't have that understanding of how people actually react. They react how they think the person is supposed to react. I've seen this in role-playing in management training. In the role play their character gets upset on areas where my experience and research says most people are neutral. They accept statements people in that situation typically find inflammatory. And they get "talked down" too easily - like the words we're working with are magic. It's useful practice, but it's not really resisted practice. It's like scenario training exercises. It's useful, and necessary for some purposes, because we can't really get real resistance.

 

[Martial D]

It's possible to train it, but tricky. I believe de-escalation training would actually work in a seminar where most participants are actually strangers, or close to it. I'll use a non-self defense example.

I am a certified crisis intervention specialists. I don't work in Philly but have a friend who was one of their negotiators and was on the Philly Joint Terrorism task force. He asked me to be a role player, not only because of my training but we both used to share a hobby of amature Theater Acting. For each group my scenario was to be a man prepared to jump from an office building. I knew that my character's motivation was that I had lost my wife the year before and I just got a call my son had died in a car crash. One negotiator, instead of taking their time and starting from neutral he went straight to "what would family think? What would your wife think? Do you have a kid?" I tried to be nice at first, a good partner, showing it was aggitatin me, that I was getting profoundly upset. He kept pushing, so I jumped. That scenario training may well not have worked the same way as people I work with because they know how I react to emotional stimuli. That would give them an "edge" in reading me that you don't get in a typical self-defense situation. So I think it's doable, if you set up realistic scenarios with strangers as role players who are good at what they do.

I also think people look at de-escalation too narrowly. By this I mean a crime might still occur. Example he maybe on the verge of shooting me but my remaining calm and saying "you want the keys to my car? That's fine, here you go" is de-escalation, I didn't get shot. Saying "yo man, I'm sorry I didn't mean to spill your drink, let me buy another round for you and your friends", same thing. In either case I "gave up" something but really in self defense that is what de-escalation is about. You will never get the guy intent on robbery to stop wanting to rob you just with words. You won't get the "beer muscle" barfly who is now embarrassed and needs to regain status among his companions just with words.

The other party is already prepared for violence to GET something. They want your keys, they want to regain face. If they don't get something they will use that violence to get it. The trick is to be able to read what it is they are looking for and give it to them in one way or another. Maybe with the robber you say "hey man I took the train, but here I got some cash in my wallet, or here, it's a [insert top of the line cell phone]. I can cancel my cards, the cash, if I am carrying more than my deductible, is covered by my home owners. The cellphone, they don't have my thumbprint, will never figure out my goofy password and I can turn it into a brick as soon as I get to my computer...and it's insured too through my provider. That, to me, is one of the tricks of de-escalation, understanding that dynamic and that, in the end, what did a really lose? Some replaceable property that's likely ensured? A little bit of pride? I didn't get shot, seems a fair trade.

By no means is this meant to belittle your training, but that is still cooperative drilling. The emotional content won't be real.

 

[Juany118]

By no means is this meant to belittle your training, but that is still cooperative drilling. The emotional content won't be real.

None taken because Of course it won't be "real" but if the "opponent" is familiar with how a person would emotionally react irl, and has the talent to portray it properly (so the "student" can learn to read cues) I don't think it is all that different than shoot house training where you learn how to properly clear corners and enter rooms, or else you catch a sim-round from the opponent, or sparring in hand to hand?

Neither of THEM are real but pressure exists. In the de-escalation training I would consider adding "be prepared to spar or take a simround to heighten the anxiety, but if structuree properly you will end up with a level of anxiety similar to sparring just in the "de-escalation" phase.

The HARD part here is having a role player that has the experience/knowledge of the Psychology of violent encounters and who has at some acting talent. That's why I opened with "tricky."

 

[Martial D]

None taken because Of course it won't be "real" but if the "opponent" is familiar with how a person would emotionally react irl, and has the talent to portray it properly (so the "student" can learn to read cues) I don't think it is all that different than shoot house training where you learn how to properly clear corners and enter rooms, or else you catch a sim-round from the opponent, or sparring in hand to hand?

Neither of THEM are real but pressure exists. In the de-escalation training I would consider adding "be prepared to spar or take a simround to heighten the anxiety, but if structuree properly you will end up with a level of anxiety similar to sparring just in the "de-escalation" phase.

The HARD part here is having a role player that has the experience/knowledge of the Psychology of violent encounters and who has at some acting talent. That's why I opened with "tricky."

Nobody knows how they would react in such an (unfamiliar) situation though, not even themselves.

Ever met a guy that "would do this that and that"(usually ending up with a flattened opponent), but then such a situation arises and they instead freeze or run? I sure have.

Fear and anger don't care about the realm of logic. It's two different worlds.

 

[drop bear]

But even that isn't a good test. De-escalation is pretty likely to fail if you first escalate. It's much more likely to work if you start from neutral.

You would be surprised.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You would be surprised.

Does your experience suggest otherwise?

 

[Martial D]

Does your experience suggest otherwise?

I've seen it go the other way plenty. Instead of talking the situation down, they escalate it themselves till the other guy gets scared and backs off.

Pretty standard dude bro power dynamic really.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've seen it go the other way plenty. Instead of talking the situation down, they escalate it themselves till the other guy gets scared and backs off.

Pretty standard dude bro power dynamic really.

I agree, though that's not really the "other way" to what I was saying. That's not really de-escalation, so much as intimidation. Same end effect sometimes, though.

 

[Marie_Flowers88]

Good article here from Paul Rackemann!

Martial Arts - Is it really about Self-defence? - Rackemann Wing Chun

I think there is more a lot than memorizing a stunt. While in a class, you really need to learn everything from basics to the advance but in the real-life situation, you can't even think what will you do or how can you tell what the attacker will do