Are you really training for self defense?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Whether that's important or not really depends if they're trying to hit you.

If nobody is attacking you, who are you going to defend against? If you are surrounding by many opponents, as long as you can protect your head and not been knocked out, you have chance to get away.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It’s like training a single-leg, and never getting to resistance.

If you have used your "single leg" to take down 100 guys, the chance that you can use it to take down the 101 guy will be high. The number won't lie. In orde to get that number, you have to test your skill on the mat. You will need a sport environment for that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If nobody is attacking you, who are you going to defend against? If you are surrounding by many opponents, as long as you can protect your head and not been knocked out, you have chance to get away.

I didn’t say anything about not attacking. Blocking a punch isn’t important if you’re being tackled.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you have used your "single leg" to take down 100 guys, the chance that you can use it to take down the 101 guy will be high. The number won't lie. In orde to get that number, you have to test your skill on the mat. You will need a sport environment for that.

Or at least a temporary competitive environment in the training hall.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I didn’t say anything about not attacking. Blocking a punch isn’t important if you’re being tackled.

Of course you also need the ability to

- move your leading leg back fast.
- not let your opponent to get to your side door (blind side).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I just quote someone's opinion about SD in another forum which I agree with.

Self defense is the biggest fallacy in MA. When someone says self defense my internal logic persona wants to scream: is that really what happens? Is that scenario realistic? So you believe that self defense means that someone is squaring up with you and throwing punches like that? Where's the truck running people down? Where's the acid attack defense? Why are you wasting time with that archaic weapon? Where's a practical gun or knife disarm? What about a machete attack on a bridge? What do you do in a random mass shooting? What if there's an armed burglar on a bus? What about the legal aftermath?

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. I was addressing the question, “How does anybody know any of it works?” We have ways of knowing some of that. But there is a problem with “practicing” it in a dojo. Role playing is useful, but there’s no “live” feedback. It’s like training a single-leg, and never getting to resistance. For most of us, te best we can do is pass along the concepts we research -including info from folks who actually have to use it regularly.

I am sure somebody somewhere has actual grounding in it. People do resolve conflicts and avoid being ambushed. They are just not generally martial arts instructors.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am sure somebody somewhere has actual grounding in it. People do resolve conflicts and avoid being ambushed. They are just not generally martial arts instructors.

Agreed, most MA instructors don’t have that grounding. That’s why I overview the info, rather than spending a lot of time on it. Can’t pressure test it, so the best I can do is give them some rational information to get them started.

 

[BigMotor]

I think that I have a realistic plan to defend myself, and that is tough to do as a 62 year old man. I intend to really get rough, and I mean that just like it sounds. I made a 3 foot and a 4 foot long walking stick, and I intend to break some bones. If I am attacked, I expect it to be by an animal, and I will return the favor.
I have some training in TKD, but it is useless to me now, I am stiff and weak. So, I went to plan B, attack the attackers. Forgive me if I sound over-the-top.

Before you genuflect and give me a sermon, I once knocked a guy out by using 3 fingers, to choke him out. I am just placing that into my equation.

 

[Flying Crane]

I just quote someone's opinion about SD in another forum which I agree with.

Self defense is the biggest fallacy in MA. When someone says self defense my internal logic persona wants to scream: is that really what happens? Is that scenario realistic? So you believe that self defense means that someone is squaring up with you and throwing punches like that? Where's the truck running people down? Where's the acid attack defense? Why are you wasting time with that archaic weapon? Where's a practical gun or knife disarm? What about a machete attack on a bridge? What do you do in a random mass shooting? What if there's an armed burglar on a bus? What about the legal aftermath?

Well, some people like to believe that they have a monopoly on understanding how violence manifests. Wake up call: they don’t.

What is described in this quote is not untrue, but is by no means the full extent of violence and potential self defense situations that people may encounter. In fact, I would argue that the need to defend against an acid attack, a machete attack on a bridge, a random mass shooting, or a truck running people down, is highly, highly unlikely in most parts of the world. Could it happen? Sure. Statistically, extremely unlikely. Time is better spend working on other things that are far more likely. And any quality martial arts training should result in some useful skills for such a more likely event. Nothing is perfect. But that doesn’t mean it is useless.

The person quoted is missing a whole lot.

 

[BigMotor]

To Flying Crane:

KUNG FU WANG SAID: ↑
I just quote someone's opinion about SD in another forum which I agree with.

Self defense is the biggest fallacy in MA. When someone says self defense my internal logic persona wants to scream: is that really what happens? Is that scenario realistic? So you believe that self defense means that someone is squaring up with you and throwing punches like that? Where's the truck running people down? Where's the acid attack defense? Why are you wasting time with that archaic weapon? Where's a practical gun or knife disarm? What about a machete attack on a bridge? What do you do in a random mass shooting? What if there's an armed burglar on a bus? What about the legal aftermath?

He has a valid point, what would I do if someone tried to run me down, or came at me with a machete? It is something that I have considered,, and it would be kill or be killed. Once the attack presented itself, I would shift posture, from happy go lucky, into kill or die. However unlikely it might be, is irrelevant; it can happen, it has happened before, so there is historic precedence. Whether to prepare for it, is an individual choice, I have chosen to prepare.

 

[Flying Crane]

To Flying Crane:

KUNG FU WANG SAID: ↑
I just quote someone's opinion about SD in another forum which I agree with.

Self defense is the biggest fallacy in MA. When someone says self defense my internal logic persona wants to scream: is that really what happens? Is that scenario realistic? So you believe that self defense means that someone is squaring up with you and throwing punches like that? Where's the truck running people down? Where's the acid attack defense? Why are you wasting time with that archaic weapon? Where's a practical gun or knife disarm? What about a machete attack on a bridge? What do you do in a random mass shooting? What if there's an armed burglar on a bus? What about the legal aftermath?

He has a valid point, what would I do if someone tried to run me down, or came at me with a machete? It is something that I have considered,, and it would be kill or be killed. Once the attack presented itself, I would shift posture, from happy go lucky, into kill or die. However unlikely it might be, is irrelevant; it can happen, it has happened before, so there is historic precedence. Whether to prepare for it, is an individual choice, I have chosen to prepare.

Well, I suspect you have misunderstood my message, so I will give it another go.

Those extreme types of attacks as described have and do happen. I never denied it.

However, they are extremely rare and unlikely. Nevertheless, you are welcome to consider them and prepare accordingly as you see fit.

Another however: there are plenty of scenarios that are much more likely, for which people routinely prepare in martial arts. Contrary to the message of the individual quoted in the earlier post, one does not need to be preparing for the extreme but unlikely attacks that he described, in order to be training for self defense. Self defense is not only about those unlikely and extreme scenarios. Accepting his message is missing out on a whole lot of reality.

In the end, we all choose the level of paranoia to which we subscribe.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, I suspect you have misunderstood my message, so I will give it another go.

Those extreme types of attacks as described have and do happen. I never denied it.

However, they are extremely rare and unlikely. Nevertheless, you are welcome to consider them and prepare accordingly as you see fit.

Another however: there are plenty of scenarios that are much more likely, for which people routinely prepare in martial arts. Contrary to the message of the individual quoted in the earlier post, one does not need to be preparing for the extreme but unlikely attacks that he described, in order to be training for self defense. Self defense is not only about those unlikely and extreme scenarios. Accepting his message is missing out on a whole lot of reality.

In the end, we all choose the level of paranoia to which we subscribe.

Agreed, just because I do not train for being tied to railroad tracks or dodging on coming trucks or planes crashing into buildings does not mean I do not train doe self-defense you absolutely cannot train for every possibility, because SD could also mean; How do I defend myself against a stock market crash, or if the housing market crashes, how do I defend myself against gas shortages or blizzards or tornados or car crashes....there are infinite possibilities and you cannot train for them all and there are things you simply cannot train for...even if you train for gun defense have you trained for a guy in body armor with high powered weapons......

However all of this has lead me to here and I apologize, but I think the topic needs this

 

[BigMotor]

Well, I suspect you have misunderstood my message, so I will give it another go.

Those extreme types of attacks as described have and do happen. I never denied it.

However, they are extremely rare and unlikely. Nevertheless, you are welcome to consider them and prepare accordingly as you see fit.

Another however: there are plenty of scenarios that are much more likely, for which people routinely prepare in martial arts. Contrary to the message of the individual quoted in the earlier post, one does not need to be preparing for the extreme but unlikely attacks that he described, in order to be training for self defense. Self defense is not only about those unlikely and extreme scenarios. Accepting his message is missing out on a whole lot of reality.

In the end, we all choose the level of paranoia to which we subscribe.

Extremely rare? Missing out on reality? Are you insane? Do you keep up with things in life?
I suspect that you have never had to fend off 6 at a time, or had to dodge a car, that was trying to run you down. I have, and things like that are not as rare as an armchair general presumes them to be. Your response is typical of such warriors, soft talk, and no fight. My reality has been one where violence was used as a lever, by thugs.

In closing, I am of the Bruce Lee line of thought, if it ain't good for fighting, dump it. You do not prove fighting ability by running away and hiding. Nor do you prove it by being foolhardy, there is a median, and I am close to that median. As far as what you have to say, I dismiss it as presumption. Can you make sense of what you see and read?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Extremely rare? Missing out on reality? Are you insane? Do you keep up with things in life?
I suspect that you have never had to fend off 6 at a time, or had to dodge a car, that was trying to run you down. I have, and things like that are not as rare as an armchair general presumes them to be. Your response is typical of such warriors, soft talk, and no fight. My reality has been one where violence was used as a lever, by thugs.

In closing, I am of the Bruce Lee line of thought, if it ain't good for fighting, dump it. You do not prove fighting ability by running away and hiding. Nor do you prove it by being foolhardy, there is a median, and I am close to that median. As far as what you have to say, I dismiss it as presumption. Can you make sense of what you see and read?

They are quite rare.

Your response is needlessly antagonistic.

 

[BigMotor]

Turn me in. My antagonism is due to having lived through a few deadly encounters; which you obviously have not had to deal with. And then you have the temerity to softly lecture me, having never done a thing martially, you lecture me on martial qualities. It is ridiculous.

 

[Dirty Dog]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
MartialTalk strives to be a friendly place. Being imperfect, that doesn't always happen, but it remains the goal.
That being said, I'm going to strongly suggest that people in this thread take a step back, and dial it down a little. Re-read your posts before hitting the POST button. Remove the hostile and/or antagonistic parts before you post.
Do this, and we can have good conversations. Don't do this, and the staff ends up with no choice other than to issue warnings, suspend accounts, or ban people. And I presume nobody really wants that.

Thank you.
Mark A. Cochran
Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Turn me in. My antagonism is due to having lived through a few deadly encounters; which you obviously have not had to deal with. And then you have the temerity to softly lecture me, having never done a thing martially, you lecture me on martial qualities. It is ridiculous.

I didn't lecture you. I was gently letting you know you were coming on very strong - more so than I assumed you intended.

And you know nothing about what I have or have not done martially.

 

[Martial D]

With awareness, there’s some decent logic to be applied, I think (based upon crime statistics, etc.). With deescalation, there are professionals who use some of thes tactics on a regular basis (though some of the published material is for folks working with disturbed or impaired people). The issue, to me, is how it can be effectively practiced. You can’t practice with resistance.

sure you can. Go be a dink to random people and when they are about to hit you, try to talk your way out of it.

*protip, at this point you might want so actual self defense skills(ie, being able to DEFEND YOURSELF from attacks) to fall back on, or you are liable to have a sore face or worse.

 

[Martial D]

As per the rest of this thread, it's getting pretty close to LARPing territory.

Not just for self defense, but in ANY situation where you are threatened/scared/under duress, here is a little secret for you all;

Those things you THINK you would do are rarely the things that will actually happen. Just lol at little old cane guy thinking he will break bones and choke people out. Just as likely you will freeze solid, or be quickly dispatched.