Are Things Outdated??

[arnisador]

On top of those reasons for saving such an art, it's a cultural treasure, much like an older form of dance or music or theatre would be, and there is value in preserving it for the same reasons as one would preserve those.

 

[Flying Crane]

On top of those reasons for saving such an art, it's a cultural treasure, much like an older form of dance or music or theatre would be, and there is value in preserving it for the same reasons as one would preserve those.

agreed. I had a brain-fart and was not able to express this the way I wanted to. thanks for picking it up!

 

[The Kai]

Arguably you are correct, in many (not all) circumstances the weaponry is irrelevant, but there are other reasons to keep these arts alive. Simple enjoyment of the practice comes to mind. In addition, if done correctly, with properly weighted weapons, this can be a tremendous strength-builder and does improve your training.

Why not invest the time in weight lifting, lot safer for the joints, quicker results in less time.

If you perserve a weapon for it's historical value, then it is not a martial art but a historical art

 

[arnisador]

I don't agree. An historical art is a martial art, even if it isn't currently practical. Would you say that iaido is no longer a martial art?

 

[Flying Crane]

Why not invest the time in weight lifting, lot safer for the joints, quicker results in less time.

Weight training does develop muscles, and probably does it more quickly, but the development is not always useful. Weight training isolates muscles and develops them along a specific range of motion. Doing work that requires effort, develops muscles in a more useful way.

The body does not function or operate with muscles in isolation. Many different muscles and body parts come in to play and work together when the body does work. It is important that the whole body develop together, for the strength to be useful.

This is why people who do physical labor often are stronger than people who live in a gym. The gym rat may look better, have better definition and a killer bod, but the laborer has strength that is useful, and can accomplish a task.

Practicing weaponry is more similar to being a laborer than being a gym rat. If the weaponry is properly weighted, it will tire you out, much more quickly than you realize if you don't have experience with it. But practicing with the weapon brings the whole body into the exercise and will ultimately make you stronger all over, but in a way that is actually useful, not just pretty.

also, we could turn your question around: why not spend the time practicing with the weaponry, rather than going to a gym and lifting weights? Space availability could be an issue, but assuming it is not, I find the time better spent doing something that is actually connected to martial training. Weight lifting, while it can be useful, is not martial training.

In addition, I would argue that weapons training does not harm the joints, if done properly.

 

[shesulsa]

Why not invest the time in weight lifting, lot safer for the joints, quicker results in less time.

Actually, that's being debated hotly by many joint experts.

If you perserve a weapon for it's historical value, then it is not a martial art but a historical art

But this is not all about preserving the weapon only, but the use of the weapon - the proper movement with the weapon. And really, if you're training right, training hands will train for sticks and knives - training sticks and knives will train for sword and bo. Training for tradiitional weapons trains for modern weapons and vice-versa.

While there are nuances unique to each weapon and its use, the theory can be similar. I think if a person understands or is competent in more than one weapon the comparability will enhance the understanding of each - IMHO.

 

[The Kai]

I don't agree. An historical art is a martial art, even if it isn't currently practical. Would you say that iaido is no longer a martial art?

Compared to combat shooting? It's somewhat archaic

 

[The Kai]

Weight training does develop muscles, and probably does it more quickly, but the development is not always useful. Weight training isolates muscles and develops them along a specific range of motion. Doing work that requires effort, develops muscles in a more useful way.

The body does not function or operate with muscles in isolation. Many different muscles and body parts come in to play and work together when the body does work. It is important that the whole body develop together, for the strength to be useful.

This is why people who do physical labor often are stronger than people who live in a gym. The gym rat may look better, have better definition and a killer bod, but the laborer has strength that is useful, and can accomplish a task.

Practicing weaponry is more similar to being a laborer than being a gym rat. If the weaponry is properly weighted, it will tire you out, much more quickly than you realize if you don't have experience with it. But practicing with the weapon brings the whole body into the exercise and will ultimately make you stronger all over, but in a way that is actually useful, not just pretty.

also, we could turn your question around: why not spend the time practicing with the weaponry, rather than going to a gym and lifting weights? Space availability could be an issue, but assuming it is not, I find the time better spent doing something that is actually connected to martial training. Weight lifting, while it can be useful, is not martial training.

In addition, I would argue that weapons training does not harm the joints, if done properly.

You assume that weight lifters are body builders, and there fore work muscles in isolation. There are exerecises that work large groups of muscles

While laborers are stronger then the average joe, the question are they strong then a athlete. Probably stronger at the specific job they do-plus laborers tend to tear thier bodies apart.

Why practic some thing of limited value, because it might make you stronger? want to do something of martial value invest the same time that you spend on spinning the swprd on banging a heavy bag!

 

[The Kai]

Actually, that's being debated hotly by many joint experts.


But this is not all about preserving the weapon only, but the use of the weapon - the proper movement with the weapon. And really, if you're training right, training hands will train for sticks and knives - training sticks and knives will train for sword and bo. Training for tradiitional weapons trains for modern weapons and vice-versa.

While there are nuances unique to each weapon and its use, the theory can be similar. I think if a person understands or is competent in more than one weapon the comparability will enhance the understanding of each - IMHO.

The stance, blocking surfaces, and strategy you employ change when facing a boxer, stickman and a knifeman. A basic rule my sensei gave me was "stick to boney surface, knife to soft areas". Would I protect myself the same from a stick or a knife...well true, I don't weant to get hit by either-beyong that no, there is areas I would highly protect aginst a knife that a stick I would not be as zealous abvout
A traditional sword form does little to prepare you for a knife fight (except I guess to learn to keep the pointy end of either away from you)

 

[Flying Crane]

You assume that weight lifters are body builders, and there fore work muscles in isolation. There are exerecises that work large groups of muscles

While laborers are stronger then the average joe, the question are they strong then a athlete. Probably stronger at the specific job they do-plus laborers tend to tear thier bodies apart.

Why practic some thing of limited value, because it might make you stronger? want to do something of martial value invest the same time that you spend on spinning the swprd on banging a heavy bag!

There is actually a newer development in the fitness industry that recognizes the truth in the need to work many groups of muscles in tandem, for the strength to be useful. More and more, this approach is working its way into the gyms, and people are starting to move away from the old-fashioned weight-lifting. Weapons practice, as far as strength training goes, is more in lines with this approach.

I knew many a farm-boy when I was growing up who could beat the crap out of any of the high school athletes. they were strong and tough because their fathers put them to work on the family farm. Their strength was useful not only on the farm, but in other endeavors as well. Many of them became wrestlers.

A heavy bag is certainly important and develops striking and impact power, but weapons training develops many different kinds of strength. Gripping strength is one, as well as rooted strength. Swinging a heavy weapon tends to throw you off balance, so you learn how to become rooted and more stable while under duress. The wider range of movement that is typical with traditional weapons practice (I am speaking primarily from the viewpoint of Chinese weaponry) will give you much more overall strength development than hitting a heavy bag will. Heavy bag work should be part of everyone's regular training, but there are many benefits that weapons training gives that heavybag work will not give.

 

[The Kai]

Watch Boxers, wrestlers or UFC fighters do they worry about a "Rooted Stance" While working a weapon may devolp strenght, is it applicable strenght??

I grew up with my's Mom side of the family being farmers, so yea they are strong guys. Is it the type of work or the fact that it is constant work? If you lifted as often as a farmer worked would you be the stronger one??

 

[Makalakumu]

Watch Boxers, wrestlers or UFC fighters do they worry about a "Rooted Stance"??

Are they generating power through their hips and feet? If so, then yes they do worry about stances.

 

[The Kai]

Do they spend time swinging old fashioned weapons around??
Here's a question if they are doing a rooted stance without specifiacallt practicing for rootness-why do we?

BTW I don't thinkit is rootedness by weight transferrence that generates a knockout

 

[Makalakumu]

Do they spend time swinging old fashioned weapons around??

If I were competing in an event like the UFC, I would want to make sure that all of my training focused on techniques that would help in competition. Despite its brutality, the UFC is just another sporting event.

Why swing around weapons? It builds focus, awareness, hand eye coordination, fighting strategy...its fun even if we never have to fight with it. The bottom line is that the weapons skills flow into empty hand skills.

Here's a question if they are doing a rooted stance without specifiacally practicing for rootness-why do we?

They do are specifically practicing for "rootedness" they just don't call it that. Good technique in karate and good technique in boxing are the same thing.

BTW I don't thinkit is rootedness by weight transferrence that generates a knockout.

Root isn't static and it isn't what hits. Root is preparation. Movement is execution. Have you ever taken a tai chi class from a good qualified instructor?

 

[Flying Crane]

For The Kai: People have many reasons why they do or do not train. I have already conceded that in many cases (but not all), training in traditional weaponry is probably outdated and doesn't have a lot of direct applicability in the modern world. However, benefits can still arise from their practice. Can these benefits arise from other, modern methods? of course. Is one way 'better' than the other? that is an unwinable debate.

If you don't feel there is value in training traditional weaponry, then don't. nobody here is twisting your arm to do so. I hope your decision is based on experience, and not a pre-conceived notion, but that is your decision to make.

In the meantime, many people will continue to practice weaponry, and will continue to reap the benefits that they offer. Other people (I suspect yourself included) will not practice weaponry, and will reap the benefits of focusing their time and energy elsewhere. Different paths, but the same journey. Cheers!

Michael

 

[Phoenix44]

Have you ever taken a tai chi class from a good qualified instructor?

Yes, and this is an excellent point. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Technically, you can be the attacker or the attackee, but I'll bet the one who is less grounded is going to be the one who gets grounded!

 

[The Kai]

While it is true that "for every action there is a reaction" Should not the reaction to the action of a punch be for the target to move back?? So we practice bracing ourselves so we don't feel back?
BTW No I never have, will or intend to do tai Chi

 

[MJS]

Watch Boxers, wrestlers or UFC fighters do they worry about a "Rooted Stance" While working a weapon may devolp strenght, is it applicable strenght??

I wouldn't say 'rooted' to the point of looking like a statue, but I'd say that having proper body mechanics, footwork, etc. would get better results.

Mike

 

[Phoenix44]

While it is true that "for every action there is a reaction" Should not the reaction to the action of a punch be for the target to move back?? So we practice bracing ourselves so we don't feel back?

Well, I'm not sure I totally understand the question. But did you ever see someone throw a kick and land on his own ***? It's even more obvious in close in fighting, where you can attempt a throw and find yourself on the floor. Or push an aikidoka or tai chi player and they introduce your face to the floor.

 

[The Kai]

Well, I'm not sure I totally understand the question. But did you ever see someone throw a kick and land on his own ***? It's even more obvious in close in fighting, where you can attempt a throw and find yourself on the floor. Or push an aikidoka or tai chi player and they introduce your face to the floor.

When you attempt a throw and wind up on the floor, usally means you are caught off balance and helped to the floor. Unfortunatly to try a throw you need to step in and commit yourself-hard to attack and reamin rooted. The premise behind tai Chi and Aikido is to get out of the way is it not? Again hard to be rooted and move at the same time

Kicking which is done with only one leg on the floor by its very nature compromises your balance.