A Complete System: Is There Such A Thing?

[oftheherd1]

For I must make this point; when you are at a 3rd dan, perfection is your goal, in every technique you choose to retain. If a 3rd dan learns a technique from another system or delineating style of their own they will practice and hone it until they either understand it and choose not to implement it, or train it to the same degree of skill as they do their other techniques. If you are learning anything new in that system, I would venture to say the individual does not qualify as a third. 1st is learning, 2nd is re-evaluating, and tightening, and 3rd is for perfecting. 4th and higher I have found I agree with others is solely about politics, and I have no desire for that.

An interesting idea, but it doesn't fit with the Hapkido I learned. We constantly practiced what we had learned, as well as learning new techniques. That is something you can train your mind to do. When I trained for 3rd dan, I was learning new technuques every training session. I was not allowed to forget those I had learned before.

As to a complete system. There are many nuances to that which can be argued. It depends on how one will choose to define a complete system.

To me, a classically trained and promoted 8th Dan is so formidible, that I would call that level of person a complete martial artist. That person may not know sword techniques, but he won't need to, other than as much as he may need to defend against a sword: that person is a complete martial artist. I think the art I study is very complete. But I am not. If I learned to 8th Dan, I would expect that I would be.

Conclusion: it isn't so much the art as the artist.

EDIT: Perhaps I should have said knife instead of sword. In Hapkido I learned sword defenses. But before I earn sticks and stones from all the sword practitioners, let me say I am well aware that a really good swordsman is no pushover. But if that sword student is unaware of the defenses I know, he/she is at a disadvantage.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I feel until one can confidently say they can protect any attack, in any situation, then one is not complete.

Think about that statement for a minute.....



:hmm:





Now think about the plethora of possible attacks and attack scenario.

 

[Chris Parker]

I feel until one can confidently say they can protect any attack, in any situation, then one is not complete.

I will continue learning, and tightening up the application of what I have learned, until the day I die. That is what being a martial artist is about.

Even the 8th dan in WTF TKD has the other 6 styles still to learn if he has not already.

It's almost a question which borders on the question of perfection, philosophically. I won't get into it, but the two go hand in hand.

I have seen many claim to be perfect, but I rarely see people execute everything perfectly... though excellence, now and again I come across it and its a constant thing then. I tend to keep those people in my martial arts life for as long as I can, and grow. Just today i was working with a brilliant silat practitioner who after just 2 years is gaining the extra perception it takes some martial artists decades to learn.



However...

I have been fortunate to stumble onto a training which allowed me to actually learn fairly well the system of chung do kwan. In the school I first learned Chung Do Kwan, I have come to see that I learned a very traditional form of the style, which looked as much Shotokan as it did Tang Soo Do. That was what was interesting to me, was seeing for the first time in my martial arts career when I entered that school, a tae kwon do school which had effectively adopted handwork, even excelling at it, without having sacrificed kicking ability.

After the school closed, a number of Khan's students began to attend another, where they continued from their chung do kwan education to re-learn the fundamentals of Shotokan, and Okinawan Karate, and implement it back into chung do kwan. Including jiujitsu, and acujutsu, it is interesting to see how this style of TKD is evolving even today. I suspect within a few years it could arguably be recognized as its own distinct TKD style.

There are a few students who have integrated Krav Maga with Chung Do Kwan from this lineage of tutelage. But... they are a handful, and most contemporary Chung Do Kwan practitioners seem to be straying from the traditional elements of its style... which is odd since its hardly over a half century years old.




Now the question comes to how I feel about completeness. I began learning TKD when I was 4, and have never stopped training, or learning new techniques. Today I was working on a 1080 roundhouse. I'll never use it, but it's a new technique to explore which may one day offer me the insight to survive. Unlikely, but I've been swept and able to turn the sudden change of events to a 720 kick. Can't do that without first practicing. I have learned the 7 styles I consider to actually be separate in TKD (two are less differentiating by technique, and moreso by politic and location, so I ignore that). I feel a 4th dan of one of the styles is not completely a master of TKD. To master a style is to master it; completely. Every aspect. I was a 3rd dan in Moo Duk Kwan, and from learning each of the TKD styles, I made it a core tenant when I learned, that I practice that style until it was of equal ability. So I could say to another martial artist with integrity; the Chung Do Kwan I use is of equal ability to the Jidokwan, and Moo Duk Kwan, and Tang Soo Do. I don't like belt counting, but I have seen a couple of my masters do it now and again to illustrate it's point of how petty it is. If I put all my TKD belts together, even the ones I never bothered to test past first dan, but was still trained past that ability level (for what does a first mean when you have a 3rd in two other styles of that system?). If I put all those together I'd be in excess of 10th dan. It means nothing, as a standard, subjective or objective. The first time you put a 6th or 7th dan on the floor, and not by accident, I feel it occurs to people.

For I must make this point; when you are at a 3rd dan, perfection is your goal, in every technique you choose to retain. If a 3rd dan learns a technique from another system or delineating style of their own they will practice and hone it until they either understand it and choose not to implement it, or train it to the same degree of skill as they do their other techniques. If you are learning anything new in that system, I would venture to say the individual does not qualify as a third. 1st is learning, 2nd is re-evaluating, and tightening, and 3rd is for perfecting. 4th and higher I have found I agree with others is solely about politics, and I have no desire for that.

But I loathe the title master, outside of describing usage of the arts. One could argue then, I will never be a master, and never complete.

Why then do so many approach me to ask how it is I look so complete (and I assure you, I have worked to be as much as possible). The video I posted online does not do myself justice, but it wasn't meant to; just to refute people's accusations I'm a mean fighter with no control, and clobbers lessers. I would not have become a head instructor at over 5 schools, of different styles, regardless of my rank within that school, if I did not have an intrinsic worth.

I tend not to give an answer... but this is why; because I decided long ago there is endless amounts of techniques to constantly learn and how to utilize. It's like finding out you have yet another passage in your favorite holy book, and then another after that. Forever, till you die, not until the book ends, for it never will. And when I learned those techniques, I kept in mind that I have the patience to recognize I have a lifetime ahead of me, and with proper understanding, and with practice, even if just once in awhile, sooner or later it will catch up.

I also ask what of those styles which have abandoned techniques, are they now incomplete from what they were?

Is it not strange one can learn a style so much, and yet still not be complete?

That incompleteness gives us room to grow, so we may become more than ourselves and who we were as martial artists.

Bruce Lee was a phenomenal influence on Martial Artists, but he rarely actually fought, and would never concede when he lost. Was he therefor confident, or arrogant? In anyway signs of the martial artist. His techniques, especially in regards to kicking, are consistently sloppy. One has but to look.

But his philosophy of fighting is remarkable in its genius; to stop growing is not to die. But it is as a martial artist.

When you hit a plateau, there is more to climb, and it's up to us to see that.

Maybe we're setting ourselves up for falling short, but unceasing perfection means we have nothing left but to stagnate. Between the choice of perfection, and its inevitable corruption, or to be erred, and always improve.... as an existentialist I'll always choose the latter.

What on earth are you going on about?

Or, to take it in more detail...

I feel until one can confidently say they can protect any attack, in any situation, then one is not complete.

I will continue learning, and tightening up the application of what I have learned, until the day I die. That is what being a martial artist is about.

So do you think such a person could exist? I'll put it this way, does that mean you need to be able to be successful against any opponent in any form of competition/rule set etc, whether a Judo competition, muay Thai bout, MMA match, TKD tournament, and more, including the variety of rule-sets that exist for a number of the systems there, as well as being able to handle all non-sporting attacks in any context, with any of a thousand weapons, against one or more people, and so on and so on? Personally, I find that type of definition of "complete" incredibly limiting and unrealistic, and therefore not really something that can be realistically discussed. I mean, how many here have trained sword against spear? How about short sword against spear? Or unarmed against spear? Or the reverse of those? And that's only looking at one weapon...

As to the second part there, I'd disagree (especially on the way you seem to be going about it). The role of a martial artist is refinement (as with any form of art), not constantly adding bits and pieces to what you do.

Even the 8th dan in WTF TKD has the other 6 styles still to learn if he has not already.

Huh? For what reason? Why would a WTF TKD 8th Dan need to learn 6 other styles of TKD? Wouldn't that be saying that someone isn't a complete chef until they can make 7 different kinds of pancakes, without looking at any other menus?

It's almost a question which borders on the question of perfection, philosophically. I won't get into it, but the two go hand in hand.

No, it's not. Perfection is the attainment of flawlessness in an area, completeness is adding until everything is covered. It doesn't mean that anything done is "perfect".

I have seen many claim to be perfect, but I rarely see people execute everything perfectly... though excellence, now and again I come across it and its a constant thing then. I tend to keep those people in my martial arts life for as long as I can, and grow. Just today i was working with a brilliant silat practitioner who after just 2 years is gaining the extra perception it takes some martial artists decades to learn.

Here's a clue.... if anyone claims to be perfect, walk away. As far as the rest, what does it have to do with anything here?

However...

I have been fortunate to stumble onto a training which allowed me to actually learn fairly well the system of chung do kwan. In the school I first learned Chung Do Kwan, I have come to see that I learned a very traditional form of the style, which looked as much Shotokan as it did Tang Soo Do. That was what was interesting to me, was seeing for the first time in my martial arts career when I entered that school, a tae kwon do school which had effectively adopted handwork, even excelling at it, without having sacrificed kicking ability.

After the school closed, a number of Khan's students began to attend another, where they continued from their chung do kwan education to re-learn the fundamentals of Shotokan, and Okinawan Karate, and implement it back into chung do kwan. Including jiujitsu, and acujutsu, it is interesting to see how this style of TKD is evolving even today. I suspect within a few years it could arguably be recognized as its own distinct TKD style.

There are a few students who have integrated Krav Maga with Chung Do Kwan from this lineage of tutelage. But... they are a handful, and most contemporary Chung Do Kwan practitioners seem to be straying from the traditional elements of its style... which is odd since its hardly over a half century years old.

Nothing here has any relevance whatsoever. But, one more time.... "acujutsu"? Dude, made up words don't help your credibility, and you've had pointed out to you repeatedly that that one is made up. Whether by you, or fed to you by someone else, it's a sign that there are some large gaps in your education, no matter how good you think your training has been.

Now the question comes to how I feel about completeness. I began learning TKD when I was 4, and have never stopped training, or learning new techniques. Today I was working on a 1080 roundhouse. I'll never use it, but it's a new technique to explore which may one day offer me the insight to survive. Unlikely, but I've been swept and able to turn the sudden change of events to a 720 kick. Can't do that without first practicing. I have learned the 7 styles I consider to actually be separate in TKD (two are less differentiating by technique, and moreso by politic and location, so I ignore that). I feel a 4th dan of one of the styles is not completely a master of TKD. To master a style is to master it; completely. Every aspect. I was a 3rd dan in Moo Duk Kwan, and from learning each of the TKD styles, I made it a core tenant when I learned, that I practice that style until it was of equal ability. So I could say to another martial artist with integrity; the Chung Do Kwan I use is of equal ability to the Jidokwan, and Moo Duk Kwan, and Tang Soo Do. I don't like belt counting, but I have seen a couple of my masters do it now and again to illustrate it's point of how petty it is. If I put all my TKD belts together, even the ones I never bothered to test past first dan, but was still trained past that ability level (for what does a first mean when you have a 3rd in two other styles of that system?). If I put all those together I'd be in excess of 10th dan. It means nothing, as a standard, subjective or objective. The first time you put a 6th or 7th dan on the floor, and not by accident, I feel it occurs to people.

Putting belts together is the hallmark of a fraud, Alex. Suggesting such a thing shows a desperate lack of understanding of what you actually learnt. The rest of this paragraph means absolutely nothing.

For I must make this point; when you are at a 3rd dan, perfection is your goal, in every technique you choose to retain. If a 3rd dan learns a technique from another system or delineating style of their own they will practice and hone it until they either understand it and choose not to implement it, or train it to the same degree of skill as they do their other techniques. If you are learning anything new in that system, I would venture to say the individual does not qualify as a third. 1st is learning, 2nd is re-evaluating, and tightening, and 3rd is for perfecting. 4th and higher I have found I agree with others is solely about politics, and I have no desire for that.

Techniques aren't the answer, Alex. And when it comes to the approaches of each Dan grade, that changes wildly from art to art, and from organisation to organisation... in other words, none of this really means anything, when it comes down to it.

But I loathe the title master, outside of describing usage of the arts. One could argue then, I will never be a master, and never complete.

Yeah... that's the reason it'd be argued....

Why then do so many approach me to ask how it is I look so complete (and I assure you, I have worked to be as much as possible). The video I posted online does not do myself justice, but it wasn't meant to; just to refute people's accusations I'm a mean fighter with no control, and clobbers lessers. I would not have become a head instructor at over 5 schools, of different styles, regardless of my rank within that school, if I did not have an intrinsic worth.

Schools such as the one that has you learn one kata in a week, then telling you that you know the entire system, and can teach it to the kids? And really, you seem to have only ever taught children, hardly what I'd consider a "head instructor"... maybe a senior babysitter. If you have taught at a school with some credibility, that would be one thing, but nothing from you has been presented to support that.

I tend not to give an answer... but this is why; because I decided long ago there is endless amounts of techniques to constantly learn and how to utilize. It's like finding out you have yet another passage in your favorite holy book, and then another after that. Forever, till you die, not until the book ends, for it never will. And when I learned those techniques, I kept in mind that I have the patience to recognize I have a lifetime ahead of me, and with proper understanding, and with practice, even if just once in awhile, sooner or later it will catch up.

How could someone say you look "complete", in your definition, in the first place? Did they see you compete in a Judo match, then a boxing match? Then have the boxer try to shank you with a knife, before the two of you squared off with swords?

Here's the thing, and I think it'd genuinely help you. Forget the myriad possible techniques. Don't concern yourself with learning "the 7 types of TKD". Leave behind completely the idea of being "head instructor at over 5 different schools (does that mean 6?)". All you're going to do is flounder. If you want to actually get good, work on one thing. That's it, one thing. Then you might start to understand why we see you as being so desperately flawed at this point in time (especially if you go back in, say, 10 years time, if you do as I'm suggesting, and re-read these posts, and re-watch the videos...).

I also ask what of those styles which have abandoned techniques, are they now incomplete from what they were?

You know, I'm going to suggest going through the thread I linked earlier for an alternate definition of "complete".

Is it not strange one can learn a style so much, and yet still not be complete?

Huh?

That incompleteness gives us room to grow, so we may become more than ourselves and who we were as martial artists.

And again... huh?

Bruce Lee was a phenomenal influence on Martial Artists, but he rarely actually fought, and would never concede when he lost. Was he therefor confident, or arrogant? In anyway signs of the martial artist. His techniques, especially in regards to kicking, are consistently sloppy. One has but to look.

Are you kidding? You think Bruce's kicks were sloppy? Have you watched your own video? And where are you getting any information on Bruce's fighting history, or his "not conceding" when/if he lost? I think we established in an earlier thread that your information on Bruce seems lacking, at least.

But his philosophy of fighting is remarkable in its genius; to stop growing is not to die. But it is as a martial artist.

I have serious doubts as to your understanding of Bruce's philosophy, when it all comes down to it. And this platitude, this vague truism, really doesn't say anything.

When you hit a plateau, there is more to climb, and it's up to us to see that.

Maybe we're setting ourselves up for falling short, but unceasing perfection means we have nothing left but to stagnate. Between the choice of perfection, and its inevitable corruption, or to be erred, and always improve.... as an existentialist I'll always choose the latter.

Oh, you're an existentialist, are you? You do understand that that doesn't really mean you'd choose one or the other, just that your personal philosophy is based in your experiences, and that you take responsibility for your decisions. But again, dude... "erred"? Seriously, if you don't know what a word means, don't use it.

Last edited by Zenjael; Today at 08:06 PM. Reason: Bad math (unfortunately ill at time of posting. Apologies if it affects quality)​

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Oh, that's not what was affecting the "quality"... that'd be more things like "erred", "lineage of tutelage", and so on, combined with, well, the entire post....

 

[Cyriacus]

I for one knew barely anything about Bruce Lee until Id been training for several months. I knew He was an actor and a Martial Artist. Thats it.

I know thats just Me, but I wouldnt call His work phenomenal. It was what it was - His work. That He did. It didnt revolutionise everything ever.

 

[rickster]

LOL. Really, you just asked that?

You started

 

[Zenjael]

Think about that statement for a minute.....



:hmm:





Now think about the plethora of possible attacks and attack scenario.

That was my point. There are infinite. You never should stop learning. because of this. I feel if a martial artist stops learning, he has simply decided to stop walking forward, and is reorienting himself. It's neither right nor wrong, for it's an infinitely long journey. Sooner or later you do end it.

For me, that choice is my when I die. That's when I'll be as complete a martial artist as possible... in my book.

To Chris; every definition of complete is limiting. It's literally putting the walls up to make the box of whatever we choose to define it as. It's subjective, and I think it ultimately just detracts from the continued pursuit of becoming better.

Do I think they can exist? Probably not. When you're talking about infinite choice, to counter infinite probablity of those choices being thrown at you, being able to counter every combination seems mathematically impossible. But it can't hurt to learn regardless. But I have heard that the martial artist should have a plethora of personal goals; some possible, even easy perhaps, while others are life-arching, and ultimately, probably impossible.

But gods, imagine what you gain in knowledge and insight from the mere attempt.

I don't learn martial arts so I can fight. That's what Krav Maga is for, and it's why I was taught it. I learn martial arts because I love martial arts, and virtually everything about it save the bullspit which impedes me from practicing at my own pace.

If you still want to argue with me about whether acujutsu is a term- then fine, I'll be happy to say concede it is not a generally accepted term. But out here, in the nation's capitol, we do know about it, as that term. And if you really want to argue about it, please pm me so I can pass you the info so you can directly address the 8th dan who teaches an entire system of Shotokan based off utilizing acupuncture (pressure points) for fighting. At this point I'm merely repeating from what I was taught, how it was. If you really question that, I'm happy to direct you to the source. But... I find he'll answer you the same as I did, and frankly, your experience compared to his tells me you're more interested in arguing semantics, such as whether acujutsu exists as a word, than about the actual subject itself. I sense a strawman.

Hey Chris, maybe I should follow your actual advice, which seems to me to be to quit martial arts. Do not try to tell me how to approach something I care deeply about, when I have not intruded on you to do the same.

Here's the thing Chris; to me you seem much more a fighter, and much less a martial artist. The fact you're butting heads over words, instead of exploring what I'm saying. Such as the delightful section where you informed the world of its worthlessness as a passage, where belt stringing is fraudulent. Maybe you should read what I wrote, in my own words, "I dont like it" and that was my point- that I'm not collecting belts, I could care less. I care about learning the system, and moving from there. And when I say care about learning the system, I mean for the systems sake, and the arts sake.

You realize you and I share the same view on something you attacked me on, right?

Now let me put on my martial art hat.

Putting belts together is the hallmark of a fraud, Alex.

Do you really want me to go into how you are directly accusing me of fraud? I'm just saying, not only a violation of forum rules, but also the integrity of a martial artist. I don't question you, out of respect for how you care about the art. I question what you say. That is not what you do. What can people hope to learn from a martial artist, Chris, who offers the insight to ignore a person's words, and then deride them when they share the same opine.

Notice how when you put a comma, and then the name, it automatically makes them the subject of the passage, Chris.

Now can we both grow up and move on? This is feeling like the sort of pissin' contest which could only be settled in person, and neither never will, and never should be. If you're going to pick apart my posts, not to address the subject, but rather to focus on me, you have failed in the argument. And you have made the person you spent all that time on, just walk away, wasting your effort.

Just saying, it's why I'm not going to be reading your responses any longer.

 

[MJS]

I feel until one can confidently say they can protect any attack, in any situation, then one is not complete.

While that notion is good, IMHO, I think that its pretty hard, if not impossible, to train for every imaginable thing out there.

I will continue learning, and tightening up the application of what I have learned, until the day I die. That is what being a martial artist is about.

Well, thats good.

Even the 8th dan in WTF TKD has the other 6 styles still to learn if he has not already.

Umm....why would someone have to do this? It'd be akin to a Kajukenbo student having to learn all of the other branches of Kaju. Why?

I have seen many claim to be perfect, but I rarely see people execute everything perfectly... though excellence, now and again I come across it and its a constant thing then. I tend to keep those people in my martial arts life for as long as I can, and grow. Just today i was working with a brilliant silat practitioner who after just 2 years is gaining the extra perception it takes some martial artists decades to learn.

Yes, I too have seen many that claim to be perfect, however, they're not.

Now the question comes to how I feel about completeness. I began learning TKD when I was 4, and have never stopped training, or learning new techniques. Today I was working on a 1080 roundhouse. I'll never use it, but it's a new technique to explore which may one day offer me the insight to survive. Unlikely, but I've been swept and able to turn the sudden change of events to a 720 kick. Can't do that without first practicing. I have learned the 7 styles I consider to actually be separate in TKD (two are less differentiating by technique, and moreso by politic and location, so I ignore that). I feel a 4th dan of one of the styles is not completely a master of TKD. To master a style is to master it; completely. Every aspect. I was a 3rd dan in Moo Duk Kwan, and from learning each of the TKD styles, I made it a core tenant when I learned, that I practice that style until it was of equal ability. So I could say to another martial artist with integrity; the Chung Do Kwan I use is of equal ability to the Jidokwan, and Moo Duk Kwan, and Tang Soo Do. I don't like belt counting, but I have seen a couple of my masters do it now and again to illustrate it's point of how petty it is. If I put all my TKD belts together, even the ones I never bothered to test past first dan, but was still trained past that ability level (for what does a first mean when you have a 3rd in two other styles of that system?). If I put all those together I'd be in excess of 10th dan. It means nothing, as a standard, subjective or objective. The first time you put a 6th or 7th dan on the floor, and not by accident, I feel it occurs to people.

For I must make this point; when you are at a 3rd dan, perfection is your goal, in every technique you choose to retain. If a 3rd dan learns a technique from another system or delineating style of their own they will practice and hone it until they either understand it and choose not to implement it, or train it to the same degree of skill as they do their other techniques. If you are learning anything new in that system, I would venture to say the individual does not qualify as a third. 1st is learning, 2nd is re-evaluating, and tightening, and 3rd is for perfecting. 4th and higher I have found I agree with others is solely about politics, and I have no desire for that.

Perhaps I'm reading wrong, but you're not using dan grades to say that when someone reaches a certain grade, that they're complete, are you?

But I loathe the title master, outside of describing usage of the arts. One could argue then, I will never be a master, and never complete.

Yet, you give that impression with your posts.

Why then do so many approach me to ask how it is I look so complete (and I assure you, I have worked to be as much as possible). The video I posted online does not do myself justice, but it wasn't meant to; just to refute people's accusations I'm a mean fighter with no control, and clobbers lessers. I would not have become a head instructor at over 5 schools, of different styles, regardless of my rank within that school, if I did not have an intrinsic worth.

Then why'd you post it? IMO, I'd think that if someone were to post a clip, that it'd be of some sort of quality.

 

[Grenadier]

To Chris; every definition of complete is limiting. It's literally putting the walls up to make the box of whatever we choose to define it as. It's subjective, and I think it ultimately just detracts from the continued pursuit of becoming better.

There are only so many ways in which you can step at one time. Otherwise, you simply end up being a jack of all trades, and an expert at none.

But gods, imagine what you gain in knowledge and insight from the mere attempt.

Also imagine, how shallow of an understanding that you will have as a result of trying to pull yourself in too many directions.

pm me so I can pass you the info so you can directly address the 8th dan who teaches an entire system of Shotokan based off utilizing acupuncture (pressure points) for fighting.

What's his name? If he's that revolutionary that he teaches Shotokan Karate based off using pressure points for combat, I, and many other Shotokan Karate practitioners would love to know who this fellow is. Considering that I personally know quite a few 6th, 7th, and 8th dans in Shotokan Karate, maybe they're amongst the people I know, or maybe they know of him?

that I'm not collecting belts, I could care less. I care about learning the system, and moving from there. And when I say care about learning the system, I mean for the systems sake, and the arts sake.

It's nice to hear that you could not care less about collecting belts. However, you must also realize, that you will never have an in-depth understanding about a particular system unless you stick with it.

Are you of the type who would rather take one year of German, one year of French, one year of Russian, one year of Chinese, one year of Japanese, and one year of Spanish, so that you could converse with someone on a 1st grader's level (that's what one year of study typically gets you), or would you rather have spent six years studying one of those languages, and be able to carry on a conversation with a teenager's ability?

Do you really want me to go into how you are directly accusing me of fraud? I'm just saying, not only a violation of forum rules, but also the integrity of a martial artist. I don't question you, out of respect for how you care about the art. I question what you say. That is not what you do. What can people hope to learn from a martial artist, Chris, who offers the insight to ignore a person's words, and then deride them when they share the same opine.

If you believe that someone is accusing you of fraud, or is in violation of the rules, then use the "Report to Moderator" feature of the forum software. The Martialtalk.com forum staff will review the issue, and take action if needed. If there truly were a transgression committed, I may be able to help you out here, especially since I did help write a fair chunk of the rules section...

Just saying, it's why I'm not going to be reading your responses any longer.

Fair enough. You are certainly free to use the "ignore this poster" feature that is part of the vBulletin software that powers this forum.

 

[Chris Parker]

Right. One more then?

That was my point. There are infinite. You never should stop learning. because of this. I feel if a martial artist stops learning, he has simply decided to stop walking forward, and is reorienting himself. It's neither right nor wrong, for it's an infinitely long journey. Sooner or later you do end it.

There's quite a difference between always having a learner's mindset and thinking you always need to learn new techniques and tricks. One leads to depth of skill and knowledge, the other leads to thinking that trying to develop a "1080 roundhouse kick" that you'll never use is actually something to do with martial arts. In other words, focus develops a martial artist, not 2,000 different kicks. Refinement, not gigantic numbers of options. In Seitei Iaido, for instance, there are 12 kata. That's it, 12 kata. But there's a lifetimes worth of study there.

For me, that choice is my when I die. That's when I'll be as complete a martial artist as possible... in my book.

To be frank, I doubt you will be. Not unless you change the way you're going about things.

To Chris; every definition of complete is limiting. It's literally putting the walls up to make the box of whatever we choose to define it as. It's subjective, and I think it ultimately just detracts from the continued pursuit of becoming better.

Again, I'm going to suggest you read the previously linked thread. You might find that the definition is a lot broader than you think.

Do I think they can exist? Probably not. When you're talking about infinite choice, to counter infinite probablity of those choices being thrown at you, being able to counter every combination seems mathematically impossible. But it can't hurt to learn regardless. But I have heard that the martial artist should have a plethora of personal goals; some possible, even easy perhaps, while others are life-arching, and ultimately, probably impossible.

Yes, it can hurt to learn (taking the approach you are there). Mind you, if you have the idea that every single possible attack requires a different response, then you're far from showing any genuine insight here.

But gods, imagine what you gain in knowledge and insight from the mere attempt.

Very little, really. Mainly as there is no depth to such an approach.

I don't learn martial arts so I can fight. That's what Krav Maga is for, and it's why I was taught it. I learn martial arts because I love martial arts, and virtually everything about it save the bullspit which impedes me from practicing at my own pace.

Oh, dear lord... what would impede you from practicing at your own pace? Oh, and I'm not touching the "That's why I was taught Krav maga" nonsense there...

If you still want to argue with me about whether acujutsu is a term- then fine, I'll be happy to say concede it is not a generally accepted term. But out here, in the nation's capitol, we do know about it, as that term. And if you really want to argue about it, please pm me so I can pass you the info so you can directly address the 8th dan who teaches an entire system of Shotokan based off utilizing acupuncture (pressure points) for fighting. At this point I'm merely repeating from what I was taught, how it was. If you really question that, I'm happy to direct you to the source. But... I find he'll answer you the same as I did, and frankly, your experience compared to his tells me you're more interested in arguing semantics, such as whether acujutsu exists as a word, than about the actual subject itself. I sense a strawman.

Kid, listen closely. Acujutsu is not a term. I really don't care what Washington schools you may have heard it in, that really doesn't speak very highly for them. And, for the record, acupuncture is the usage of needles, you're talking about acupressure, which are both English terminology. The point of arguing that the word doesn't exist, though, is that it shows that your education is desperately flawed and lacking, so if you're basing your arguments on such sources, you are only going to come up against your own mistakes every time you post.

Hey Chris, maybe I should follow your actual advice, which seems to me to be to quit martial arts. Do not try to tell me how to approach something I care deeply about, when I have not intruded on you to do the same.

My advise wasn't to give up martial arts, it was to focus on one thing, and get some real basis in your understanding of martial arts. Honestly, you're best off starting from scratch again, as right now you're too full of mistakes and misunderstandings, which you think are correct, to actually recognize just how far off base you are and open yourself up to actually getting good at this.

Here's the thing Chris; to me you seem much more a fighter, and much less a martial artist. The fact you're butting heads over words, instead of exploring what I'm saying.

Oh, son, you really have no idea who you're dealing with if that's your take on me....

Such as the delightful section where you informed the world of its worthlessness as a passage, where belt stringing is fraudulent.

In terms of your passages being worthless, it was that you were talking about a range of things that had no actual relevance to your argument, the discussion, or anything else at all.

Maybe you should read what I wrote, in my own words, "I dont like it" and that was my point- that I'm not collecting belts, I could care less.

Yet you made the claim that if all your belts were put together, you'd be "well over 10th Dan". If your point was that you weren't collecting belts, why would you bring it up? Just for your own ego, to try to justify to us that you might have a clue? Frankly, just by making the claim, it showed that you didn't have a clue there at all.

I care about learning the system, and moving from there. And when I say care about learning the system, I mean for the systems sake, and the arts sake.

Then learn a system. Actually learn it. Your video, and the accompanying description of what you thought was present in it, showed that you really haven't done that at all, especially in the systems that you were claiming. You're fixated on "techniques", which is the least aspect of learning a system, as that's just a beginners mindset.

You realize you and I share the same view on something you attacked me on, right?

No, we aren't. You think it was a valid comment to make, for one thing.

Now let me put on my martial art hat.

Right. I'll suitably prepare myself....

Do you really want me to go into how you are directly accusing me of fraud? I'm just saying, not only a violation of forum rules, but also the integrity of a martial artist. I don't question you, out of respect for how you care about the art. I question what you say. That is not what you do. What can people hope to learn from a martial artist, Chris, who offers the insight to ignore a person's words, and then deride them when they share the same opine.

I wasn't accusing you of anything, Alex. I was saying that if you made such a claim, you'd be a fraud. It'd be like saying that you've repeated the 2nd Grade 11 times, so that's the equivalent of being a University graduate. Any "martial artist" who does award themselves a composite grade in that manner has no integrity, so questioning any supposed integrity, to me, is fine. And you might have noticed that I have been questioning you, with the arts themselves only coming into question when your comments have been so out of whack with reality that they demand questions, such as your usage of the term "acujutsu". I haven't ever ignored your words, they've been what I've been questioning.

Notice how when you put a comma, and then the name, it automatically makes them the subject of the passage, Chris.

Uh, no it doesn't, Mr Scholar. It means that the passage is directed towards the named person. You might want to rethink your take on grammar, along with your usage of many, many words... such as "opine" yet again above....

Now can we both grow up and move on? This is feeling like the sort of pissin' contest which could only be settled in person, and neither never will, and never should be. If you're going to pick apart my posts, not to address the subject, but rather to focus on me, you have failed in the argument. And you have made the person you spent all that time on, just walk away, wasting your effort.

Three quarters of your posts don't deal with the subject of whatever thread you're on. But yeah, I'm more than happy to pick your posts apart, especially when they are so full of issues, as yours are.

Just saying, it's why I'm not going to be reading your responses any longer.

Rather than actually answer any of the questions, you mean? Can't say I'm particularly disappointed... just one last thing, though...

The video I posted online does not do myself justice, but it wasn't meant to; just to refute people's accusations I'm a mean fighter with no control, and clobbers lessers.

Please.

From your OP when you posted said video:

The person in the black is my good training partner, and friend, Alec Emery. I've had the honor of attending several martial art schools with him, and he is a very good fighter. He holds a 3rd Dan in Chung Do Kwan TKD, and I am equally ranked in WTF Tae Kwon Do, Moo Duk Kwan.

To give a size reference I'm about 5'4", 5'5", and am wearing the black shirt, and gray sweater in beginning.

I hope you guys enjoy the video, find valuable insights for possible improvement and critique, and can find things to use yourself from this video.

The Martial Art Styles, altogether used in this video (elements from each style we have respectively learned) are; Chung Do Kwan, Jidokwan, Moo Duk Kwan, World Trade Federation Tae Kwon Do, International Tae Kwon Do Federation, Shotokan, Isshin-Ryu, Okinawan Karate, Muai-Thai, Aikido, Hapkido, Jiujitsu, Krav Maga, Acujutsu, Shishi Baguazhang, Yin-Style Baguazhang, Wing-Chun, and American Kenpo.

I am hoping the diversity will allow the video to appeal to many, especially as an example of the benefits of cross-style training.

Again, please.

 

[Cyriacus]

If You want to learn a 1080 kick, so be it. But it isnt going to benefit You on any level other than "I can do a 1080 kick. ..."
If You want a good kick to practice, try Front Kick. To the midsection. You might actually benefit from it.

Also, if Youre a 10th Dan, Im glad I dont learn whatever Youre teaching, Alex. Really

 

[Supra Vijai]

If You want to learn a 1080 kick, so be it. But it isnt going to benefit You on any level other than "I can do a 1080 kick. ..."
If You want a good kick to practice, try Front Kick. To the midsection. You might actually benefit from it.

Also, if Youre a 10th Dan, Im glad I dont learn whatever Youre teaching, Alex. Really

Midsection? Please... you try doing that in skinny jeans, cause I tooooootallly own me some of those Even in dress jeans though, personally, I'd go for the knee or the ankle if I want any ability to generate power.

As for 10th Dan, I can think of at least one system that shall go unnamed, where that means absolutely nothing in terms of actual skill and that's an actual 10th Dan in the one system, not a composite grade.

 

[Cyriacus]

Midsection? Please... you try doing that in skinny jeans, cause I tooooootallly own me some of those Even in dress jeans though, personally, I'd go for the knee or the ankle if I want any ability to generate power.

As for 10th Dan, I can think of at least one system that shall go unnamed, where that means absolutely nothing in terms of actual skill and that's an actual 10th Dan in the one system, not a composite grade.

I have never worn skinny jeans or dress jeans though - I mostly just wear normal jeans, or what i guess could be called work pants. I literally wouldnt know
I, personally, prefer the bigger target that is the torso thats hard to miss, rather than the potentially moving leg (With a Front Kick) - Of course, that doesnt rule them out. This is just My preference. And I may be a bit biased by using a Front Kick as more of a push, and reserving that whole 'doing damage' thing for My hands.

I just realised something - 20 something year old 10th Dan. Yay!

 

[Supra Vijai]

I have never worn skinny jeans or dress jeans though - I mostly just wear normal jeans, or what i guess could be called work pants. I literally wouldnt know
I, personally, prefer the bigger target that is the torso thats hard to miss, rather than the potentially moving leg (With a Front Kick) - Of course, that doesnt rule them out. This is just My preference. And I may be a bit biased by using a Front Kick as more of a push, and reserving that whole 'doing damage' thing for My hands.

I just realised something - 20 something year old 10th Dan. Yay!

Yeah trust me, I wouldn't fit into a pair of skinny jeans anyway, what with my manly manly quads and all Dress jeans as in nice, going out jeans as opposed to something to wear just casually but I find that I get very restricted in any type of jeans really. Suit pants on the other hand, even when tailored afford me room to move.

Hey fair enough about your preferences, I wouldn't bet my life on a single front kick but it's a nice thing to have in the arsenal IMO.

Alex is 22 or 23 from memory? You know what *I* just realised? You and I find ourselves posting on the same thread, we think it's getting a bit silly so we derail it with our random conversations. Yay us!

 

[MJS]

That was my point. There are infinite. You never should stop learning. because of this. I feel if a martial artist stops learning, he has simply decided to stop walking forward, and is reorienting himself. It's neither right nor wrong, for it's an infinitely long journey. Sooner or later you do end it.

I will continue learning, and tightening up the application of what I have learned, until the day I die. That is what being a martial artist is about.

As its already been said, but worth repeating, there's a huge difference here. 1) Continuing to learn and refine what you already know. 2) Learning new things from different arts.

IMHO, #1 is probably the best option. Many times, I go back to the most basic things that I know, and work them. Its interesting to see what you come up with. #2 isn't necessarily a bad thing either...however...there is a huge difference between going from 1 art to the next, ie: jack of all trades, master of none, and attending a seminar, picking up or 2 things, drilling the hell out of them, and keeping them in your own tool box for your own use. I tend to frown on being a jumping jack, as those people have no dedication and no desire to learn. I've gone to seminars with people, and we've each taken a few things back with us, and drilled them together, again, for our own learning purposes.

It's my opinion, that when you say that you like to learn, you're falling into the jumping from 1 art to the next category.

 

[Flying Crane]

While that notion is good, IMHO, I think that its pretty hard, if not impossible, to train for every imaginable thing out there.

that's why I keep saying, if you understand the principles, they are universal regardless of your technique. You can put those principles to work within a smaller number of techniques, you can use a few techniques in a very wide range of situations, getting a lot of mileage out of less material.

Then you can respond to anything imaginable, without having to train for everything imaginable.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yeah trust me, I wouldn't fit into a pair of skinny jeans anyway, what with my manly manly quads and all Dress jeans as in nice, going out jeans as opposed to something to wear just casually but I find that I get very restricted in any type of jeans really. Suit pants on the other hand, even when tailored afford me room to move.

Hey fair enough about your preferences, I wouldn't bet my life on a single front kick but it's a nice thing to have in the arsenal IMO.

Alex is 22 or 23 from memory? You know what *I* just realised? You and I find ourselves posting on the same thread, we think it's getting a bit silly so we derail it with our random conversations. Yay us!

Indeed We do

I personally just prefer using My upper body, with some kneeing here and there. Front kicks are, like I say, a push in My mind. I have no doubt there are better uses for it, but the same could be said of anything

 

[MJS]

If you still want to argue with me about whether acujutsu is a term- then fine, I'll be happy to say concede it is not a generally accepted term. But out here, in the nation's capitol, we do know about it, as that term. And if you really want to argue about it, please pm me so I can pass you the info so you can directly address the 8th dan who teaches an entire system of Shotokan based off utilizing acupuncture (pressure points) for fighting. At this point I'm merely repeating from what I was taught, how it was. If you really question that, I'm happy to direct you to the source. But... I find he'll answer you the same as I did, and frankly, your experience compared to his tells me you're more interested in arguing semantics, such as whether acujutsu exists as a word, than about the actual subject itself. I sense a strawman.

No, its not a term, and you've been told that numerous times, yet you fail to see that. The correct term is Kyosho Jitsu. Acupuncture is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture

So, unless one is running around with a bag full of needles, trying to stick the other guy, in a specific pressure point......