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Doc said:The evolution of the Japanese arts are all rooted in actual fighting from the Chinese and Okinanwan's. However there is a historical distillation process that was the basis for their many "do" or "way" arts, that emphasized the 'spirit,' and cultural 'codes' over practical or even effective applications.
Danjo said:The exaggerated crecsent step is mostly from Shotokan as it was developd by his students. The Karate that Funakoshi personally used was more up-right in it's stances as witnessed by his earlier manual featuring himself performing the techniques. Motobu favored the Nihanchi stance twisted to the side for fighting more than the forward stance. But the step through punch/forward punch, was common to all of the Okinawan Karate schools and the Northern Shaolin styles (as witness training tapes featuring Kam Yuen etc.), though many did not use the crecsent step.
eyebeams said:Northern styles don't use the bow so much for that kind of thing. It uses it sometimes, but it's more common to use a more dynamic step (that can be a kick) and end up in a horse. This is how you get your power lead hand in.
High-level Shotokan pactitioners tend to use higher stances in application. Using deep stances is a lot like altering frame in Tai Chi. You can make karate or Tai Chi postures quite extreme in order to train strength and exaggerate problems with your structures that are more easily disguised with higher stances, but everything in application gravitates toward a natural posture. Nishiyama's karate series demonstrates this, where "plainclothes" applications don't use the deep training stances.
Danjo said:When Motobu showed up at Funakoshi's school and threw him to the ground three times in front of his students, he said it was to show that Funakoshi's Karate was not good for fighting and that it was only window dressing that looked good on the outside and had no real fighting applicibility. I don't know how much of this was true or how much was merely Motobu running down Funakoshi because he was successful, but he did claim thta there was a lot wrong with Shotokan in terms of it's use in fighting.
"Funakoshi's karate is fake. He could only copy their elegance by performing the outer portion of what he was taught and used that to mislead others into believing he was an expert when he was not. His demonstrations were simply implausible. This kind of person is a good-for-nothing scalawag. Funakosi is very good at talking, in fact, his tricky behavior and eloquent explanation easily decieves people.To the naive person, Funakoshi's demonstration and explaination represents the real art! Nothing is more harmful to the world than a martial art that is not effective in actual self-defense. If that stupid person opens a dojo then let him fight with me and I'll make him go back to Okinawa. This would be a real benefit to the world!"---Motobu Choki
eyebeams said:Well, there was some bad blood between them for a couple of reasons:
1) Motobu defeated a boxer, but popular accounts confused him with Funakoshi (this wasn't Funakoshi's fault).
2) Motobu's family was more highly placed than Funakoshi's in the Aji/Pechin system. Funakoshi was seen as something of a culture traitor and presumptuous, besides.
3) Motobu didn't like Funakoshi's teachers, specifically Itosu.
As for the two men, Motobu was definitely the better fighter. Funakoshi was a schoolteacher and was also lighter and about eight inches shorter. Motobu was a giant among Okinawans of his time because he was about six feet tall and incredibly muscular, and the closest thing around to a professional karate fighter. He didn't have much respect for anyone that didn't practice for combat full time, and had an equal amount of contempt for Chinese arts. Then again, Choyu allegedly chucked him around with Palace Hand techniques, so there were definitely some limits to his skill.
But this is kind of like saying that Rorion Gracie is a better fighter than a high level judo coach. It's true, but said teacher doesn't spend all of his time practicing judo for competition. It doesn't say much about the actual techniques. For contrast, note that the technical base of Kyokushinkai started with Shotokan, and Mas Oyama credited Funakoshi as his "true" teacher.
Danjo said:Motobu studied under the same people as Funakoshi as well as some others. He was still on friendly enough trerms with Itosu to discuss his changing of Chanan to the Pinan kata later in life.
Motobu was also only two inches taller. The six feet tall was wrong, there are far too many photos of him standing next to people of known height. He was, according to on eof his students in McCarthy's book 5'5" (165 cm) tall. I even have a picture of him next to Funakoshi where it's clear that they are very nearly the same size. Funakoshi was fairly muscular too. He even has himself flexing his muscles in his first book to show what Karate can do for your muscular development etc.
Anyways, the point is that Shotokan was criticized early on concerning it's usefulness in fighting and I'm wondering if it's not due to what Funakoshi emphasized in terms of the stances and footwork. But, like I said, it could have been largely due to Motobu's hatred for Funakoshi since other Okinawan karateka criticized Motobu for teaching a karate that was too focussed on fighting.
Hand Sword said:Sound like it could be plausible. Looking through these forums, the debate of what should be the focus of the martial arts is still raging. No system should be looked down upon, they are all valid. I'm sure that Funakoshi could have defended himself quite well, if needed.
Hand Sword said:I hear Ya! I just responded because it seemed that Funakoshi was getting dumped on, or his Karate was not legit because of his personal philosophy. I just don't think that is fair, if it was the case. (If I read it wrong, I apologize!)
You mean kinda like Parker did with "motion Kenpo-Karate?"Danjo said:Hey, I'm not dumping on him. I have a brown belt in Shotokan and found the training very good. However, I did notice that the exagerated stances etc. always had to be adjusted in order to free-spar. That seems like a waste of time to train that way now. Same goes for the crescent stepping. But to each his own. I don't think karate would have been nearly as popular without Funakoshi's inovations in terms of popularizing it for the masses.
Doc said:You mean kinda like Parker did with "motion Kenpo-Karate?"
Danjo said:However, I did notice that the exagerated stances etc. always had to be adjusted in order to free-spar. That seems like a waste of time to train that way now.
Flying Crane said:How do you feel about the idea that the stances are exaggerated to build strength and stability, and when they are relaxed for fighting, this gives you greater speed and mobility from training from a more difficult position?
In Wing Chun, we use a bizarre, knock-knee stance that I think is sometimes call the "goat clamping stance". It is painful and works the hell out of the legs. nobody would try to fight from this stance but the training builds a lot of power and stability. Once we move into a fighting stance, speed and mobility is better because of this training.
Kind of like running with ankle weights, but you take them off before the actual race.
Danjo said:I understand that explaination but I'm not sure how valid it is. It seems more like a justification than an actual explanation. Here's why: The older Karate styles didn't have those low stances. They were an inovation of either Funakoshi or his students. Even Funakoshi's early stuff was practically upright compared to how Shotokan looks now-a-days. I thnk it was done for asthetic reasons more than anything like strengthening the legs etc. Muscle memory is a funny thing. It means that the nervous system has been trained to the point where it no longer requires the brain to engage. The signals simply go from neuron to the spine and back out again. When we're first learning something, the brain is constantly engaged in the process. It isnt' until it gets past that that the reflexes etc. can take over and you get real speed and power with fluidity. If you train to do something wrong, i.e., in an exagerated form, then that is what your nervous system is going to be able to do with fluidity. Now, if what your nervous system is trained to do doesn't really work in real life, then you're screwed. Adjusting your stances up from how you normally train will put you in a zone that you have no reflexive ability and you're simple back to engaging your brain before you can effectively execute your stuff. Therefore, I think that the old school Karateka were wise to train the way that they were actually going to use the stuff. Your legs are already strong enough to injure someone sufficiently if you are executing a proper kick just from walking around all of your life, you don't need exaggerated stances to strengthen them in training. One of the things I like about kempo/kenpo is that they tend to train in a more natural fighting stance. No conversion required.