Is More Better?

[Flying Crane]

My sigung always says, even tho we have a number of forms in our system, if all you want is to be able to fight, you just need our first three punches: chuen choi, pau choi, and khap choi. If you can use those well, you can fight anyone.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Hi,

I study Ninjutsu and recently our Sensei took us through a workshop covering all the throws (in their most basic form) that are contained in the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku No Maki.

One thing we all noticed was that while we trained about 20 throws, there were only 5 or 6 throws, everything else was a variation or contextual as to what made it "different".

Also when we are going through our normal training, we are expected to train every technique with the same dedication as part of expanding our personalities but are often told that on the street, we should rely on only half a dozen very gross motor techniques because the objective is to get home safe, not kill the opponent or score points.

I'm not as experienced as most of the posters on here and I still can't give every technique it's traditional Japanese name but I can make my way through most of things we've been taught so far, however when "sparring" with friends etc once adrenaline hits my first response is almost identical every time and it works for me.

 

[clfsean]

My sigung always says, even tho we have a number of forms in our system, if all you want is to be able to fight, you just need our first three punches: chuen choi, pau choi, and khap choi. If you can use those well, you can fight anyone.

Hehehehe... paraphrasing Lau Bun -> All you need for Choy Li Fut is Gwa Sao Chaap.

 

[seasoned]

I can't read all of these posts, it would take forever. One simple rule is just that, the KISS rule. "Keep it simple stupid". Seriously, nothing against any particular system, but in a self defense situation, less and effective, is much better then too much.

 

[Steven Craig]

[FONT=&quot]I tend to get lost or have an overload if I am shown too many techniques. I think once you are past the teenage years and an adult you need to almost push out information to gain new.
Unfortunately for me I chose to start as an adult so I find I would rather know fewer techniques well then many to a lesser degree through repetitive movement.
The only issue with my theory (and the others who have said similar) is that you need to learn the wider variety to find what ones work best for you as an individual. If you are limited by your instructor you may not be given the appropriate tools.
I tend in class to try whatever variety I can, including ones I will never use (as I don’t know that with many until I try them and realise they are not practical for me) and the ones I like I go home and practice and commit to memory.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[MJS]

Its interesting, because while debating this with some other Kenpo people, they talk about internalizing the system. How long does that take? 1 yr, 20yrs, life? Seems to me that many times when there's alot to learn, people memorize it just enough to satisfy the requirements, test and move onto more memorization and the process repeats.

IMO, I'd think that someone would have a better chance of internalizing something and really being able to do it to the best of their ability, if there was less. Internalize your basics, and work from there.

 

[Flying Crane]

Its interesting, because while debating this with some other Kenpo people, they talk about internalizing the system. How long does that take? 1 yr, 20yrs, life? Seems to me that many times when there's alot to learn, people memorize it just enough to satisfy the requirements, test and move onto more memorization and the process repeats.

IMO, I'd think that someone would have a better chance of internalizing something and really being able to do it to the best of their ability, if there was less. Internalize your basics, and work from there.

There is certainly something to be said about being spread too thin.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Essentially that comes down in my Yang Taiji lineage. My Sifu loves breaking a persons root and hurling them to the ground. Of course, he also teaches to hit them hard. Usually just after kicking their knee.

That is not what I was talking about when I talked about sticking and qinna

But on the topic of this thread. Essentially Taiji has 13 'principles' 8 'energies' and 5 directions. Everything else is just a combination of the above. Of course, we only have 1 empty hand form. It's just rather long. Although, considering the sheer amount of repetitions, there's not that many techniques needed to be learnt.

Also, there is the middle ground of student vs teacher. To learn how to fight using a system isn't a matter of learning lots of techniques. If all you want to do is be effective, you take the path of learn what is useful and discard the rest. If you at some point want to teach, you have to learn everything to a decent level and master those techniques that are best for you. What works best for me, an 88kg 5'10" male is almost definitely not going to work well for my tiny 45-50kg wife.

Does that mean that if we both learnt the same system one of us would be wrong? No, just different techniques to be taught. I am firmly of the belief that forms/kata were originally designed for lineage holders rather than the average student. Essentially as an encyclopedia of the various techniques of the system so they could teach what was best for the individual. (Plus making custom forms for said student, based around their ideal techniques.)

But essentially, do I need 50 different defences against a punch to my head? No, not really. I need about 3. Total. The rest is just icing and for teaching someone who might not work the way I do.

Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote but the 13 postures are the 8 energies and 5 directions, aka 8 Gates and 5 Steps

Gates = Eight Stances = Postures = Energies = Ways

5 Steps = Directions = Footwork Technique = Movements
The Thirteen Postures

8 energies

1. Ward Off - Peng
2. Roll Back - Lu
3. Press - Ji
4. Push - An
5. Yank (Pull Down) - Cai
6. Split - Lie
7. Elbow - zhou
8. Shoulder - Kao

5 steps

9. Advance - Jin
10. Retreat - Tui
11. Step Left watch right - Ku
12. Step Right watch left - Pan
13. Center - Ding

Also everything else in Yang Style is not a combination of the 13 postures and as far as response to an attack, that response would depend on the energy coming at you if you are staying within taijiquan. All of the postures in all of the forms have applicationos that go with them and in many cases more than one application. However you can find many of the postures in the form but there is more to Yang Taiji in application than the 13 postures

And you need Tuishou to learn how to stick and follow as well as feel the direction of the energy coming at you in order to respond accordingly to the attack and none of this comes quickly.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My sigung always says, even tho we have a number of forms in our system, if all you want is to be able to fight, you just need our first three punches: chuen choi, pau choi, and khap choi. If you can use those well, you can fight anyone.

Yang Taiji all you need is to understand the 13 postures to be able to defend yourself

 

[WC_lun]

IMO, I'd think that someone would have a better chance of internalizing something and really being able to do it to the best of their ability, if there was less. Internalize your basics, and work from there.

Any fighting system that I have experienced, the basics are where the strength of the systems lies. If you have the basics trained into your body mechanics and thought processes, you'll be head and shoulders above those that just want to keep memorizing techniques.

Just about any martial artist that has ever trained has heard his or her instructor say, "Work on your basics more!" There is a reason for that.

 

[Talon]

This is a question that I've discussed with my fellow Kenpoists, but I wanted to ask here, to get some feedback of non Kenpoists. Of course, if someone who does Kenpo, wishes to comment, please feel free.

In the Kenpo system (Parker and Tracy) there tends to be a huge number of techniques, techniques which address a wide variety of attacks. IMO, though, many of them tend to be redundant. For example: we'll use punches as an example. You'll have techs that address a right step thru punch, another set that'll address a right cross, another set that'll address a jab, and so forth. So basically what you end up with is a ton of moves.

While some people that I've talked to have said that all the techs are necessary, I tend to disagree with that. Instead of having this huge laundry list of moves, I'd rather see a list of the most common street attacks. This list would consist of: attacks from the front and rear, ie: grabs, chokes, grabs with punches. Weapon attacks: These would consist of gun, knife and club attacks. Ex: knife thrusts and stabs, blade held to the body and throat from front and rear. Gun: front, side and rear.

Thats just a basic example, but I think its clear where I'm going with this. So, now we have a handful of techs, vs. a large amount. The student can focus on a smaller list, and eventually build off of the base techs, which IMO, the students should be doing anyways. By doing this, the students are not necessarily bound by the techs, but will eventually be capable of thinking on the fly and reacting to whats happening at that moment, without having to have a huge list to attempt to go thru when the crap is hitting the fan.

I used Kenpo as an example, as that is the art that I train in. However, the above can be applied to any art.

As in ladies swimwear... Less is more!

On a serious note, basics usually win. There isn't enough time in a real street situation to have your mind and muscle memory muddled by a thousand ideas of the perfect ways to punch. Just punch!

 

[Touch Of Death]

As in ladies swimwear... Less is more!

On a serious note, basics usually win. There isn't enough time in a real street situation to have your mind and muscle memory muddled by a thousand ideas of the perfect ways to punch. Just punch!

From what point of origin? That is at least three ways.
Sean

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As in ladies swimwear... Less is more!

On a serious note, basics usually win. There isn't enough time in a real street situation to have your mind and muscle memory muddled by a thousand ideas of the perfect ways to punch. Just punch!

While I do agree with the less is more approach, I think that it needs to be stated that there needs to be enough there to address different ranges of combat and differing varieties of attacks. There also needs to be enough that people of different sizes and builds can all take away the same ratio of useful material from the class.

Daniel

 

[Touch Of Death]

While I do agree with the less is more approach, I think that it needs to be stated that there needs to be enough there to address different ranges of combat and differing varieties of attacks. There also needs to be enough that people of different sizes and builds can all take away the same ratio of useful material from the class.

Daniel

I hear that; the people who run the internet caffe where I want me to teach their older son. My vision of the art happens to be like I was trained, and that was in a school. I told them I would be happy to beat up on their son, but he can really learn very little from the experience.
Sean

 

[MJS]

As in ladies swimwear... Less is more!

Agreed!!!

On a serious note, basics usually win. There isn't enough time in a real street situation to have your mind and muscle memory muddled by a thousand ideas of the perfect ways to punch. Just punch!

True.

While I do agree with the less is more approach, I think that it needs to be stated that there needs to be enough there to address different ranges of combat and differing varieties of attacks. There also needs to be enough that people of different sizes and builds can all take away the same ratio of useful material from the class.

Daniel

Just to clarify my point of view on this. If we include every possible method of attack, then IMO, there'd be no need to condense anything. If you instead, picked a handful of techs for each basic attack, then simply using your basics, you'd easily be able to counter any 'What If' they can do.

During one class that I was teaching, I picked a basic yellow belt tech. I told the defender to go thru the tech as they learned it. I told the attacker that at any time, during the tech., to do something out of the "Ideal Phase" of the tech. Ex: If the attack was a rear 2 hand choke, the attacker, would start to pull or push the defender, forward or backwards, let go and change the attack, basically whatever they wanted to do. This forced the defender to now break out of the typical pattern and use their basics, to come up with a response for whatever was being presented at that time.

This is why I love to do spontaneous reaction drills. This is what that teaches and re-enforces...to be able to think on the fly, and react. When I do this drill with my teacher, we're going all out. When he punches me, I have 2 options...move or get hit...hard! He isn't interested, and neither am I, in doing a textbook technique. What he wants to see, is me defending myself. He's changed his attack mid-steam and I've had to adapt. Is it pretty? No of course not. LOL. But again, thats not whats concerning me.

Sooo...all that being said..lol...I'm not suggesting having 2 techs., but I dont feel that we should have hundreds, many of which tend to be redundant.

For the most part it sounds like we're on the same page.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think that if one were to learn how to throw maybe two or three kinds of punches and two or three blocking/deflecting techniques, and two or three evasive stepping strategies, really well, you could use that to defend against 85% of what might come at you, including various grabs and stuff.

hell, I'd bet one punch all by itself could deal with 70%...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

While I do agree with the less is more approach, I think that it needs to be stated that there needs to be enough there to address different ranges of combat and differing varieties of attacks. There also needs to be enough that people of different sizes and builds can all take away the same ratio of useful material from the class.

Daniel

Just to clarify my point of view on this. If we include every possible method of attack, then IMO, there'd be no need to condense anything. If you instead, picked a handful of techs for each basic attack, then simply using your basics, you'd easily be able to counter any 'What If' they can do.

Absolutely. Basics generally cover everyone, and generally, there are a handful of techniques over and above the basics that everyone picks out and makes their own. This is where I feel that some variety needs to exist, though certainly not the hundreds, or even a hundred or even fifty.

Sooo...all that being said..lol...I'm not suggesting having 2 techs., but I dont feel that we should have hundreds, many of which tend to be redundant.

For the most part it sounds like we're on the same page.

I'd say more than for the most part.

Daniel

 

[Talon]

From what point of origin? That is at least three ways.
Sean

Huh?

 

[Flying Crane]

A number of years ago I was tinkering with the Tracy curriculum for my own reasons, and organized all the techs based on type of attack.

Tracys has 250 techs from white belt to first black. There are additional techs thru 5th black, with a grand total of 381, according to the official lists. However, many of these techs have variations (in my opinion some variations are more worthy than others). If you count all of the variations, there are supposedly 600. I've never bothered to count them myself.

When I was done tinkering with the list, I found that there were a huge number of techs against a punch of some sort or other. Some from the front, some from the side, some were single punches, others punch combos, some kick/punch combos. I don't remember the number offhand, I'll have to see if I still have those notes lying around somewhere... but I think there were something like 170 or so, out of the total 381.

Just giving some perspective...

I just took a quick look thru the Tracy lists. Made a quick count of things, there's a few I was sort of hazy on and my count may not be exact, but of the 250 SD techs thru Shodan, I counted 125 that included a punch in some fashion, in the attack.

 

[Flying Crane]

I just took a quick look thru the Tracy lists. Made a quick count of things, there's a few I was sort of hazy on and my count may not be exact, but of the 250 SD techs thru Shodan, I counted 125 that included a punch in some fashion, in the attack.

OK, to beat a dead horse...I just went thru the entire Tracy manual, all techs thru Godan. According to the descriptions, there are 169 of the 380 total, that involve a punch defense.

I'd say there are others that may imply a punch. Attacks such as a shoulder grab may be coupled with a punch. If you include all other attacks that might imply a punch as well, there's be a lot more...