A Complete System: Is There Such A Thing?

[elder999]

I am at a lost as how to help you understand what I mean.

For the record, do you really claim to teach anything in the "same family of function, concepts and tactical usage" of explosives?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It is hard to be functional in and with every weapon. We can be proficient with many and some easily transfer to usage with another. (ie. short knife to slightly longer knife, stick when trained right to machete) However even when there is some cross coverage you simply cannot be functional in everything. I am very experienced with lots of firearms yet there are quite a few that I have little to no experience with. (one only needs to watch Top Shot to realize that) Sure there are similarities but..and those similarities might allow you to utilize them but... that is not the same as being functional and proficient with them. To be functional with most tools you have to have experience with them and training. I have extensive shotgun training and can utilize most shortguns that I have worked with effectively even with the minor differences. Yet in the moment I would definitely like my own personal shotgun in my hands! That would be optimal in the moment. The idea of being functional and having well roundedness with different tools/weapons is excellent. I believe in this whole heartedly! However we cannot be fooled into thinking that we can just pick up anything and be effective with it. That is where training comes in and exposure and of course specialization. As a generalist you should be able to utillize quite a few tools and some will be able to cross polinate from training with another however you more than likely will specialize with a few that naturally are your favorites! Be good with what you know, train hard and learn as much as possible. Also be realistic! When you don't know some thing be someone who is willing to learn and train under an instructor proficient in that discipline or area. (that is of course if you are interested) A martial practitioner always needs to be willing to learn and progress. Be inquisitive, learn and grow!

 

[jasonbrinn]

For the record, do you really claim to teach anything in the "same family of function, concepts and tactical usage" of explosives?

I don't "claim" to teach anything, for the record.

 

[elder999]

I don't "claim" to teach anything, for the record.

:lfao:

You mean, you formulated your own system, and you don't teach anything?

How refreshingly.........original. :lol:

So, do you teach explosives or not?

 

[Makalakumu]

Can you call a martial art "complete" if it doesn't have at least a rudimentary curriculum in how to fix all of the damage it can cause?

 

[elder999]

Can you call a martial art "complete" if it doesn't have at least a rudimentary curriculum in how to fix all of the damage it can cause?

Sure can-especially if the goal is to leave a body with rapidly lowering temperature behind. :lol:

I mean, I'm with Brian on this-no system is truly "complete," and I can accept where you're coming from, but it's a separate issue: I've seen too many judo instructors who lack even knowledge of the existence of judo katsu techniques........

 

[Christian Soldier]

I have yet to see any striker with no grappling experience be able to stop a grappler from throwing them or taking them down. anti-grappling = grappling.

I've seen this alot actually, heck even in MMA. Perhaps your stand up trainers were far less expierience than the grappelers. My take on it is if you are a stand up fighter and you wish you'd spend more time on grappling, you need to spend more time training standing up.


Reffering to the above weapons discussion. I think the MCMAP moto pretty much sums it up right
"One mind, any weapon." Learn the basics of firearms, clubs, staffs, knives, etc. Most of this you will probably have to do on your own. 2-3 1 hour classes a week at a MA school is simply not enough to cover all of these. MY suggestion would be to have a dedicated MA school and do most of your weapons training seperate.

There may not be a complete Martial Art, but there are very well rounded Martial artist.

 

[jasonbrinn]

:lfao:

You mean, you formulated your own system, and you don't teach anything?

How refreshingly.........original. :lol:

So, do you teach explosives or not?

Look Elder, I said I don't "claim" anything. Shamar system has more than one instructor, I am simply its founder. Shamar system has processes that continually push it forward and I am not always the one leading the way. For instance, Shamar system's bladed weapon of choice is the tomahawk which is not something I chose. Most of the curriculum of Shamar system is completely open to the public and completely free of charge to train. We even have a correspondence program for people that can't make it to one of our school locations. Since you seem so interested I highly suggest you check that program out. Unfortunately, a small percentage of the curriculum HAS to be kept private due to its very nature. The private curriculum is taught to people that we come to know over a long period of time, people whose intentions are well known by us. The private curriculum is not required to progress in the system's ranking.

I am a law abiding American and believe in the FREEDOM of knowledge. I served in the military to protect freedom. I will always study and train anything I feel necessary to make sure I have every option available to me and my family to ensure its freedom.

I am not exactly sure why you enjoy making jokes at my posts all the time but you obviously enjoy interacting with me. I teach a lot of different things to the instructors of Shamar system none of which are open for discussion outside of that small selective group. If you would like to debate with me personally or poke fun or whatever your agenda is then please save it for either a thread between us specifically, a private message, email or phone call. I am easy to reach if you want to talk just know that if you are asking questions like the one above the conversation will be very short.

Now, my comment if you remember in respect to the OP was simply that I believe training in a system which allows for growth in the curriculum and covers the working concepts of different types of weapons is the closest anything can come to a complete system.

 

[Omar B]

Hey Shamar. Since you created that complete system, I've been working on this Ninjas disappearing into a cloud of their own farts thing. You got that right?

 

[clfsean]

Shamar < ---- > Shamwow... is there a connection?

 

[Omar B]

Shamar's gtallery is pretty good too. Some great pix of his ultimate art.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Very funny guys!

@Omar - I must admit some of my early pics probably aren't too far off LOL. I am in NYC all the time and have MANY friends there. I also have a good connection to Kyokushin so I am sure we would have a lot in common, except for your interests in the butts of Ninja's - LOL. PM me and maybe we could get together next time I am in town.

@clfSean - NO connection! I hate that that happened to that guy, sad. Shamar is actually a Hebrew word, however, you aren't the first to make the joke I'm afraid. I am sure you get your fair share though with Choy Lee Fut done in the South. We are not that far away and I have friends in ATL so we should get together sometime and train. I would love to learn some CLF.

 

[Omar B]

Very funny guys!

@Omar - I must admit some of my early pics probably aren't too far off LOL. I am in NYC all the time and have MANY friends there. I also have a good connection to Kyokushin so I am sure we would have a lot in common, except for your interests in the butts of Ninja's - LOL. PM me and maybe we could get together next time I am in town.

@clfSean - NO connection! I hate that that happened to that guy, sad. Shamar is actually a Hebrew word, however, you aren't the first to make the joke I'm afraid. I am sure you get your fair share though with Choy Lee Fut done in the South. We are not that far away and I have friends in ATL so we should get together sometime and train. I would love to learn some CLF.

I'm with Seido, I only do/did Kyokushin when there was no Seido school available. So no, I don't have deep connections in KK except for 3 of the schools in the city (mostly the one in Flushing).

Answer me something, do you hold black belt or at least high rank in any other style than the one you guys made up?

 

[Makalakumu]

Sure can-especially if the goal is to leave a body with rapidly lowering temperature behind. :lol:

I mean, I'm with Brian on this-no system is truly "complete," and I can accept where you're coming from, but it's a separate issue: I've seen too many judo instructors who lack even knowledge of the existence of judo katsu techniques........

I think the assumption now days is that you would have emergency services near to help you or your buddies after a fight. In the "old days" though you might be the only person who could help. The effectiveness of your martial art was also measured in how fast you recovered from a fight. That said, I've found that my studies of the healing aspects in the martial arts have really informed my whole practice. I feel like it's rounded out my knowledge and turned it in a new direction. I consider it to be one of those aspects of training that one really needs in order to be well rounded...dare I say complete.

 

[jasonbrinn]

I'm with Seido, I only do/did Kyokushin when there was no Seido school available. So no, I don't have deep connections in KK except for 3 of the schools in the city (mostly the one in Flushing).

Answer me something, do you hold black belt or at least high rank in any other style than the one you guys made up?

Respectfully, doesn't Seido come from KK?

To your question; I have trained for 3 decades non-stop. I hold a 3rd (soon to be 4th) degree BB in Karate and a 2nd degree BB in Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai. I have instructor level Tai Chi Chuan experience, and was a BB candidate in Shorinji ryu and Okinawan Kobudo but had to leave for the Navy before my test was complete. I have studied BJJ for the last 15 years and trained with some of the best in the world. I have trained with military and contract specialists for a long long time. I have been VERY fortunate to study many different arts under the top in the world during my life time.

Don't think I created Shamar system for the wrong reasons please. Shamar doesn't charge so it wasn't for money. Shamar doesn't use traditional ranking systems so it wasn't to be ranked. I only teach Shamar instructors so it wasn't for fame or anything either. The reason I founded Shamar is to reach further after the goal of the men and women who taught me. I created Shamar to have a free and open space to truly push the limits without politics and without barriers. I created Shamar for many reasons honestly.

 

[clfsean]

@clfSean - NO connection! I hate that that happened to that guy, sad. Shamar is actually a Hebrew word, however, you aren't the first to make the joke I'm afraid. I am sure you get your fair share though with Choy Lee Fut done in the South. We are not that far away and I have friends in ATL so we should get together sometime and train. I would love to learn some CLF.

Sure... if you find yourself down this way, let me know ahead of time. If I'm able to work in it, no problems.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I have yet to see any striker with no grappling experience be able to stop a grappler from throwing them or taking them down. anti-grappling = grappling.

I've seen this alot actually, heck even in MMA. Perhaps your stand up trainers were far less expierience than the grappelers. My take on it is if you are a stand up fighter and you wish you'd spend more time on grappling, you need to spend more time training standing up.

I can guarantee that the strikers you see in MMA who are able to keep the fight standing against grapplers have spent plenty of time training their own grappling skills for the express purpose of being able to counter takedowns. To see examples of strikers in MMA with no grappling knowledge, you have to go back to the early UFCs (and other MMA tournaments in the early 90s), where they got taken down by the grapplers over and over again every damn time.

 

[Christian Soldier]

I can guarantee that the strikers you see in MMA who are able to keep the fight standing against grapplers have spent plenty of time training their own grappling skills for the express purpose of being able to counter takedowns. To see examples of strikers in MMA with no grappling knowledge, you have to go back to the early UFCs (and other MMA tournaments in the early 90s), where they got taken down by the grapplers over and over again every damn time.

Sorry, I should have put made a new paragraph. If you plan on taking MMA than absolutly, grappling is vital. But real fights are not 10 minutes long and one one one, in fact, as you probably know, it's quite the opposite.

For SD then I'd say "My take on it is if you are a stand up fighter and you wish you'd spend more time on grappling, you need to spend more time training standing up." AFAIK take downs and sprawling (A sprawl in kenpo is a forward bow, like in Thrusting Prongs) are pretty common things in any stand up style in one for or another (except maybe boxing?). However, I personally would prefer not to spending my training time at the school perfecting my triangle choke or any kind of ground manuever.

I agree with what you said about MMA. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[MJS]

I can guarantee that the strikers you see in MMA who are able to keep the fight standing against grapplers have spent plenty of time training their own grappling skills for the express purpose of being able to counter takedowns. To see examples of strikers in MMA with no grappling knowledge, you have to go back to the early UFCs (and other MMA tournaments in the early 90s), where they got taken down by the grapplers over and over again every damn time.

I would say Chuck Liddell is a perfect example of this. I believe he does have a grappling background, however, it seems he prefers to keep his fights standing.

 

[MJS]

It is not systems that are complete or incomplete; it is martial artists. Speaking as one who is absolutely incomplete.

I do not say this in jest. I have said before that the system I study, Isshin-Ryu, does not possess a 'ground game' in the form of grappling. And yet, I now see that it is indeed 'complete', because exemplary practitioners have a ready and complete response to grapplers - they avoid their takedowns, counter their moves, and fight their way instead of the grapperl's way. Is it 'better'? That is not for me to say. But it's certainly 'complete' if you're that student or master who can perform all those moves proficiently.

I also recognize that people differ quite a bit in their capacity to learn and to perform what they have learned, quickly, powerfully, and adeptly. Again, speaking as one who is not proficient, just learning. So what is a 'complete system' for one person may not be for another, even in the same system. Some systems favor certain capabilities, some have many layers that allow students of different capabilities to master those parts best suited for them.

My system is complete. It is I who am not complete.

Besides, I have begun to wonder about the commonly-heard statement that such-and-such is not a complete system or is a complete system. For what purpose does one require a so-called 'complete' system? I have seen clearly that my own system requires a lifetime of dedicated study to master; how is it that such mastery is obtained in even more techniques, covering every conceivable situations, in less than a lifetime? For what purpose?

"Here's a technique designed to defend against three attackers descending from a helicopter via rappelling ropes if two of them are left-handed, it's dark, and you're wearing a wetsuit." Complete? Sure. WHY?

I'll say a few things here that I also said over on the Frankenstein thread.

One's definition of "complete" makes a big difference, and there are many ways to define what is meant by "complete".

I tend to agree with Bill on this issue. It's not so much the art itself, or the formalized curriculum of an art, as it is the individuals ability to utilize what he has learned under different circumstances.

I believe that if you have a stong understanding of the principles that make your system function, beyond the techniques and the formal curriculum, and understand the engine underneath it all that ties that curriculum together and makes it all work, then you can understand how to make your techniques effective against any enemy, no matter what method he uses to attack you. It's not a matter of having a curriculum for all ranges, rather it's about understanding how to use what you do, against all ranges. Don't play the other guy's game, rather fight your fight against the other guy.

That's understanding the system on the principle level vs. the technique level.

If your definition of Complete means that you need to have all techniques for all ranges and styles of combat, then you will never be complete and you will spend your days chasing after every technique ever invented. And you are setting yourself up to forever fall short. There are always more techniques, and it becomes impossible to collect them all. In that Frankenstein thread, a weapons curriculum was also mentioned. By way of example, there will always be another weapon that you've not trained with, and you remain incomplete. Another gun, another type of knife or sword, or military hardware, things that are simply not available to most people. So once you try to use this as your definition of complete, it becomes something that you cannot accomplish.

So I would say a martial artist is complete if he/she is able to use the system to fight against anybody no matter how they attack you, even if you don't match them technique-for-technique. If you can use YOUR methods against them, then you are complete and fully functional.

There are simply "no complete" systems out there. There are however many systems that claim to be complete and well they simply are not. To utilize the idea of a complete martial art it would have to encompass everything and well that is just impossible. There are also "no complete" martial practitioner's. (not even close) For if they were complete they would not need to learn anything else. They would simply know it all. We all know that is not the case. The learning would be over and well I have not met any old dog that cannot learn a new trick or two. (actually a whole lot more) Some times the older the dog the more learning they should be doing. Where I will totally agree with FlyingCrane is that a system needs to be principle based with elements that make it up. If the system has good principles and elements then those should allow a practitioner to apply them in many different ways. However, just because a principle works a certain way in a certain area of combat does not mean that a practitioner will be able to take that same principle and utilize it in another area without training in that area. that I would say is just an out for a practitioner not to train in a certain area and limit their learning. (which goes against how I practice because I belive in "no limitations") The idea that a striking based system for instance will be able to utilize a principle from the system in grappling without training in it is pretty ridiculous and has been proven over and over again to be so. Likewise a grappler utilizing a principle or an element from their system to strike suffers in the same way. Or someone who has only trained in an empty hand system to utilize a tool like a knife with efficiency. (not effectiveness) It some times is not just the principle or the element or the inability to use them but the lack of experience by the practitioner that gets them into trouble. Or the lack of attributes which are very important for effectiveness. For myself and most of the serious practitioners that I know they do not want to be put in a box. They take the principles and elements of the Martial Sciences that they know and explore. They want to learn, improve and be better at what they do. So they continue to train which in the end is the one of the most important points for any martial practitioner. Do not limit yourself! Instead, learn and continue to learn and let no one , no system or anything get in your way of doing so as a martial practitioner! Jenna makes a really solid point about being "good enough". Good enough that in the moment we will be able to utilize what we know for whatever the purpose that is needed. In my case that will be personal protection for myself or my loved ones. In the end be "good enough" and do not be complacent!!!

Excellent points gentlemen. This is what I touched on in my OP, using one of my arts, as an example. I'm sure that if one really knows the applications of certain things, ie: kata, then yes, I can certain agree with Bill and FC. So in that case, that could very well be considered complete, but it could also be just scratching the surface, as I also mentioned.

I dont think that it always comes down to learning a tech for every possible attack out there. I think it could simply be a matter of expanding your knowledge in a certain area. A general practioner doctor will most likely know about the body. If I were to go to my doc and tell him that whenever I raise my heart rate, I get some sharp, shooting pains, that quick disappear once I relax, he'll most likely send me to a cardiologist, because that doc knows much more about that given area.

For myself, I've always been a believer in if you're going to teach/learn a tech, that you should also have a fairly good understanding of what you're doing. To use what Brian said...a standup art teaching defense against a grappling tech, if that person doesnt have alot of knowledge in that area. I don't feel (although its always an option) that one has to abandon their art and jump to something new, and then something else, and so on, but instead, get familiar with a certain area. ie: test your standup material with a grappler. I dont need to invest years into studying BJJ to do this, IMHO.