Another Get your Kenpo Blackbelt at home.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by cdhall
The ring caught my eye in the ad.

I think you ought to order one!

 

[arnisador]

Yes, the rings are what caught my eye too! Well, that's successful advertising--I read the ad, noted the URL, and checked the link.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by cdhall
Dude,

I wanted to post that.
Their ring caught my eye in the ad.
http://www.darkdragonkenpo.com/rings.htm

A major problem with kenpo is it has been over intellectualized. Students are too busy trying to learn "why" when they should be learning "how."

It is a myth in the very conceptual kenpo that you can learn to be a "warrior" and a scholar at the same time. You cannot. It is an impossibility. Quality time is an element that cannot be circumvented. Many think they are both, and you can tell that from the posts that permeate the forums from
individuals who have been "around" the arts for a decade or so, and are now "scholarly" experts who think thay have all the answers and full cups.

 

[CoolKempoDude]

black belt home is getting ridiculous every day. To the point, it is really unacceptable

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I think you ought to order one!

OK. OK.

The ring caught my eye which was successful advertising like Arnisador said.
I thought they might be selling the Perfect Weapon Ring. I know someone does sell it.

But I spent an unHoly amount of money to obtain my College Ring and it is gold and has a diamond and I don't really want a "Kenpo Ring."

However I have posted on some other thread (maybe it was this one) that giving and receiving contact can not be transmitted by video. And as Doc is alluding to, without contact it is nearly impossible to learn how to hit and be hit effectively.

So just in case anyone thought otherwise, I posted to join in the Tomato throw at the "Black Belt Video" industry and I don't think you can come up this way from scratch and I don't want a ring to prove that I did.


Do they even mention who is teaching?
It looks like they make certificates as well.
http://www.darkdragonkenpo.com/certificates.htm

And it looks like the artist is very fond of the Tiger that Ed Parker, Jr. used on the AKSC Certificate as well. http://www.aksc.org/extassets/cert.pdf


Hmmm.

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

Doc said

A major problem with kenpo is it has been over intellectualized. Students are too busy trying to learn "why" when they should be learning "how."

I say

Yes yes yes, how true this is. There comes a time when you just have to get on the mat and learn how. This exposes so much truth.

For example: It's one thing to formulate a conceptual answer to what-if situation, but to let your body feel the truth in actuall action can verify whether or not your "conceptual solution" was right or not.

I have noticed there seems to be alot of debate about what would or would not work.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Doc
A major problem with kenpo is it has been over intellectualized. Students are too busy trying to learn "why" when they should be learning "how."

This has often been my experience. On the other hand you have an art like Modern Arnis with very little structure. We haven't even a language to begin analyzing with and that's a problem for us (that we're trying to deal with, in part by borrowing from the Kenpo model).

Early on in my martial arts career, as a karateka, I attended a tournament and shut out a kenpoka with longer time training than me. After I beat him 3-0 he came to find me and explained what I had been doing wrong--this technique violated this principle, etc. He may have been right, of course, but it wasn't really a good time to make his point. He would have been better off practicing. That's the over-intellectualizing.

Another time a pair of Kenpoka explained an elbow to the face where you sandwich the face between the palm of one hand and the elbow of the other. Everyone knows this technique, but they had a few tips that were helpful and a different way of looking at it. That was good and there's still one thing I gained from that discussion that I carry with me. Then they started arguing over whether this technique counted as 7 hits (one for each finger on the open hand, plus the elbow making contact, plus the elbow sliding across the face as it leaves contact) or 8 hits (by also counting the center of the palm on the open hand). They were very serious and Mr. Parker's name was cited by both to buttress their arguments. I found it...not even pedantic, but just silly. Their analysis was helpful to a point--helpful to them and helpful to me--and I saw that, but then they seemed to get stuck in Overdrive.

A discussion board is a great place for these intellectual discussions to emerge however!

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy
Doc said

A major problem with kenpo is it has been over intellectualized. Students are too busy trying to learn "why" when they should be learning "how."

I say

Yes yes yes, how true this is. There comes a time when you just have to get on the mat and learn how. This exposes so much truth.

For example: It's one thing to formulate a conceptual answer to what-if situation, but to let your body feel the truth in actuall action can verify whether or not your "conceptual solution" was right or not.

I have noticed there seems to be alot of debate about what would or would not work.

Yes sir, as well as how a body will or will not react. Part of that debate fueled the coining of a term; "Hypothetical Kenpo." I spent quite a bit of energy breaking down what actually constitutes "bending over" and it was dificult for some to understand what it is and what causes it. All of this debate simply tellms me how much people don't really know about specific applications. "General knowledge always produces general results." - Ed Parker.

 

[bdparsons]

for what they're worth.

Video training is definitely a viable alternative, but only when certain things are in place:

Credibility-The people you learn from must be legit.

Affordability-Otherwise what's the point?

Accessability-You must have the means to ask questions and get clarification when needed.

Accountablity-Without being held accountable for what you're learning (read: detailed critique and proper testing) then it's probably an exercise in futility.

Easy-no. Possible-yes.

I think those involved in legitimate video training programs would tell you that studying from an instructor face-to-face is the optimum situation. Unfortunately, not everyone is in an optimum situation. Video training is only one of a number of options.

The quality of the student at any given stage depends on a number of factors:

The quality of instruction.-Everythng begins with the teacher.

The committment of the student.-Self motivation is one of the biggest hurdles the student has to overcome. Committement to a rigorous workout schedule is essential if the student wants to excel.

The ability of the student to self-correct.-This is a skill that is easier for some than others. This is where the accountability factor kicks in. It's the responsibility of the instructor to observe and make sure the corrections are being made.

The realism of the training.-A body to practice on is crucial. We all know everything changes when Kenpo is practiced on another body. Kenpo done properly in the air is beautiful; Kenpo done properly on a body is devastating.

Are not these factors needed in a face-to-face scenario as well?

Respects,
Bill Parsons

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by bdparsons
for what they're worth.

Video training is definitely a viable alternative, but only when certain things are in place:

Credibility-The people you learn from must be legit.

Affordability-Otherwise what's the point?

Accessability-You must have the means to ask questions and get clarification when needed.

Accountablity-Without being held accountable for what you're learning (read: detailed critique and proper testing) then it's probably an exercise in futility.

Easy-no. Possible-yes.

I think those involved in legitimate video training programs would tell you that studying from an instructor face-to-face is the optimum situation. Unfortunately, not everyone is in an optimum situation. Video training is only one of a number of options.

The quality of the student at any given stage depends on a number of factors:

The quality of instruction.-Everythng begins with the teacher.

The committment of the student.-Self motivation is one of the biggest hurdles the student has to overcome. Committement to a rigorous workout schedule is essential if the student wants to excel.

The ability of the student to self-correct.-This is a skill that is easier for some than others. This is where the accountability factor kicks in. It's the responsibility of the instructor to observe and make sure the corrections are being made.

The realism of the training.-A body to practice on is crucial. We all know everything changes when Kenpo is practiced on another body. Kenpo done properly in the air is beautiful; Kenpo done properly on a body is devastating.

Are not these factors needed in a face-to-face scenario as well?

Respects,
Bill Parsons

Could you learn to play pro football by video? Well self defense is a lot more complex. If someone learned by video, they didn't learn very much, by my standards.

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Doc
Could you learn to play pro football by video? Well self defense is a lot more complex. If someone learned by video, they didn't learn very much, by my standards.

I don't want to stir up any problems, or cause any flame wars, but I do have a couple of questions for you in relation to this topic.

The Kenpo Net has a Cd Rom of yours on sale in their Internet Mall.

Here is the description of the product that they have on their Web Site:

"This CD is the first in the series from the Martial Science University Distance Learning program and features the Kenpo creed and salutation, what Sub-Level 4 is, and the yellow belt curriculum (using timing and breathing signatures as well), as well as Short Form 1, Blocking Set 1, and Kicking Set 1. Full video and pictures of everything's execution plus what each teaches. Do allow 2-4 weeks for delivery of this item."

Doc,

Are you offering a distance-training program or is the description of your product on the Kenpo Net Internet Mall wrong? Is someone capable of meeting your standards to advance in rank from studying from this Cd Rom alone or is it simply meant as a supplement for your students that train in a studio?

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Bill Lear
Doc,

Are you offering a distance-training program or is the description of your product on the wrong? Is someone capable of meeting your standards to advance in rank from studying from this Cd Rom alone or is it simply meant as a supplement for your students that train in a studio?

Neither. The description is accurate but it is offered as an informational educational reference only for those who may be interested in what our "basic" technique execution looks like. It is made clear we do not offer any distance learning rank granting or advancement mechanism of any kind under any circumstances. No exceptions. Even so, many people wanted it anyway for various reasons we they found out we had done it. I've turned down many who wanted to obtain SL-4 certifications at a distance. I have stacks of mail from the U.S. and Europe, but simply it is not possible to learn any way but hands on under a competent teacher, and I refuse to compromise the integrity of the information entrusted to me - period!

My students have no need for it because they have instructors, and no one in house has ever purchased it nor been encouraged to do so.

It was created as a thesis project by Ryan Angell for his associate professor accreditation, and he subsequently received requests for it and handled its sale without my participation. It is a simple and very basic overview of a small portion of the beginning course. Those who have purchased it have really liked it and thought it was well worth the cost. Even so, I informed Mr. Angell that I would not authorize any additional CD-Rom media for sale at this time.

You can't learn football or any physical interactive competitive activity without a coach or teacher. Of course that doesn't mean some won't give someone a belt if they buy enough videos and send in enough money. They can ask all the questions they want and even get together a couple times a year with someone who is supposed know what their doing. As an introduction to an activity for the curious, it may be fine, but they couldn't get a yellow belt from me by video. They wouldn't even know what they were looking at. The nuances of human movement don't work that way, at least for the level of what I teach. My bar is high, and uncompromising and my students are screened to meet standards that ensure success. All others will find a kenpo studio somewhere that will teach at the level where they fit.

 

[bdparsons]

would be to remove the reference to the "Martial Science University Distance Learning Program" from your web site. If you are so emphatically against the practice then this reference is misleading at best, deceptive at worst. You can't have it both ways.

Bill Parsons

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by bdparsons
If you are so emphatically against the practice then this reference is misleading at best, deceptive at worst. You can't have it both ways.

We don't, nor are we attempting to have it "both ways." Anyone who contacts us is told emphatically we DO NOT offer ranking without regular class attendance and participation. Those who accept the "educational / information only" provision purchase tapes and videos for personal reasons, and I'm sure do "learn" something, but that is a personal choice. I'm told there have been "no complaints." YOUR assertion we are trying to have it both ways because we don't offer rank, but will sell a video or CD to someone who want's it, is rediculous.

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Doc
We don't, nor are we attempting to have it "both ways." Anyone who contacts us is told emphatically we DO NOT offer ranking without regular class attendance and participation.

Doc:
I think it is reasonable for Mr. Parsons to have equated "Martial Science University Distance Learning Program" with "Martial Science University Distance RANKING Program" Particularly in the context of this thread.

Those who accept the "educational / information only" provision purchase tapes and videos for personal reasons, and I'm sure do "learn" something, but that is a personal choice.

I take it from this that you are trying to distinguish Distance Learning from Distance Ranking. I see your point. While I agreed with Mr. Parsons on his post I now see the difference you are apparently trying to make and I can accept that.

I'm told there have been "no complaints." YOUR assertion we are trying to have it both ways because we don't offer rank, but will sell a video or CD to someone who want's it, is rediculous.

Of course the assertion that you have been told that there have been "no complaints" is irrelevant, but again I agree with your distinction and I will start using Dictionary.com more myself if you promise to quit spelling "rediculous."


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rediculous
No entry found for rediculous.

Did you mean ridiculous?
ri·dic·u·lous adj.

Deserving or inspiring ridicule; absurd, preposterous, or silly. See Synonyms at foolish.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[From Latin rdiculus, laughable, from rdre, to laugh.]
:asian:

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Doc

It was created as a thesis project by Ryan Angell for his associate professor accreditation,

perhaps, his thesis was about promoting your SL4 everywhere???

 

[bdparsons]

Your assumption that my assertion of “both ways” means awarding rank is incorrect.

In reading your comments in this thread and other threads on this forum I’ve come to the conclusion that you feel learning martial arts (particularly Kenpo, and more specifically your take on Kenpo) via an electronic medium is impossible. Is this a correct summation of your position?

If not, forgive me and enlighten me.

If so, then that is where I feel you trying to have it both ways. What I am hearing is “You can’t learn anything worth knowing in the martial arts while watching your TV or computer, but ask me about the Martial Science University Distance Learning Program and we’ll tell you we don’t have one. In sales that’s called a bait-and-switch. If I’m wrong, fill me in, please!

A few more questions, please. 1) Do you feel it’s irresponsible of people to put out tapes/DVDs offering distance learning (that may or may not include ranking)? 2) What’s your take on the integrity of such individuals? 3) Are they just scam artists deceiving people into believing that they know something they really don’t?

Bill Parsons

 

[arnisador]

I enjoy seeing tapes of arts I don't practice. I watched a ton of Systema videos one night at Mr. Hartman's. I can't learn Systema, but I might take away an idea or two to try through Modern Arnis. All the more so when what I'm watching is a tape of an FMA. An instructional tape won't teach me that system but may give me an idea to try, or a new way of explaining something.

I'm looking to buy a snake style kung fu video/DVD just because I am curious about it. (Pity it isn't convenient to rent these at Blockbuster.) I do have some Modern Arnis videos/DVDs which serve as refreshers and checks.

So, I can easily see where having a video/DVD of the systme available makes sense. Maybe people are curious; maybe it'll draw them in; maybe it's an easy way to answer questions. Some people insist that distance training is their only option. I don't care to argue with them.

I must agree that labeling it "Distance Learning" rather than simply "Instructional Video" seems slightly out of sync with the message being given here, yet I also see that the language is heading that way in all sorts of areas (not just the martial arts).

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by cdhall
Doc:
I think it is reasonable for Mr. Parsons to have equated "Martial Science University Distance Learning Program" with "Martial Science University Distance RANKING Program" Particularly in the context of this thread.

Except the wording has nothing to do with this thread, particularly AFTER an explanation of intent, "having it both ways" is an inappropriate suggestion.

I take it from this that you are trying to distinguish Distance Learning from Distance Ranking. I see your point. While I agreed with Mr. Parsons on his post I now see the difference you are apparently trying to make and I can accept that.


I will start using Dictionary.com more myself if you promise to quit spelling "rediculous."


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rediculous
No entry found for rediculous.

Did you mean ridiculous?
ri·dic·u·lous adj.

Deserving or inspiring ridicule; absurd, preposterous, or silly. See Synonyms at foolish.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[From Latin rdiculus, laughable, from rdre, to laugh.]
:asian:

OK Buddy, I know you don't want me to start checking your posts for spelling, grammar, and content. I just answer posts, sometimes from a laptop half sleepy from work while on the go. I don't spell check and trust that I will never be so far off that the core of what I am saying will be lost due to a misplaced letter or two. You're being "rediculous" and "abserd" with a dash of preposterous. Additionally in some of my research I have come across a study that under the circumstances you may find interesting.

it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Spell check that Buddy.

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by Doc
it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Spell check that Buddy.

:rofl: Good point!

Also-
enough - gh pronounced "f"
women - o pronounced "i"
attention - ti pronounced "sh"

Therefore - ghoti is pronounced "fish".
Ain't English grand?