Another Get your Kenpo Blackbelt at home.

[theletch1]

UUmmm....correct me if I'm wrong here, but didnt I already say this stuff???? I believe I did, and you turned around and said that talking to the Inst., talking to the students, watching a class, among the other things I said, would not be effective, and now you are sitting here saying the EXACT same thing as I did???

Mike,
You are correct sir. I have directly contradicted myself in my two posts here...however, the two posts are from two distinct points of view and would require the reader to be able to decypher my own twisted train of thought. One is from the point of view of an experienced martial artist and our responsibility to assist new/potential students and the other is from the point of view of someone with no experience and no one to assist in the search. I was careful to add disclaimers that there are no guarantees in either instance. I do apologize for the confusion.
:asian:

 

[John Bishop]

I still believe that an important part of martial arts training is developing a sense of family (what Hawaiians call "Ohana")with your brothers and sisters in your art.
These bonds are formed on the mat thru hard work and sweat, together. This bond becomes so strong that after your partner gives you a fat lip or bloody nose (accidently) you pat him on the back and say "don't worry about it". Class mates and instructors push each other to achieve excellance.
Brothers and sisters of the mat sometimes become lifetime friends, husbands, wives, etc. This whole sense of family is something that you can never get from video instruction. And to not have it, is to miss out on one of the best experiences that the martial arts has to offer.
Video training does have it's place in martial arts, but I feel it's as a supplement to regular in school training.

Call me old fashion :soapbox:

 

[Michael Billings]

... and a pat on the back for a bloody nose or fat lip, heck, we usually say "great punch! Show me how you got that in!" or "Whoops, my bad, I blocked with my face ... AGAIN." So long as you have the comraderie, then you know it is never on purpose that you get bloodied up. They meant to hit, but not injure. Kenpo is never having to say you are sorry ... unless it is your fault and you really did lose it, or ding somebody out of anger or frustration.

Thanks Mr. Bishop, good point.

 

[arnisador]

There's an article in the current (Sept. 2003) issue of Black belt by Bobby Newman, Ph.D. on a study of video learning. It shows a picture of one of Mr. Tatum's videos but actually used a Dragon Kenpo Karate Academy video by Ed Hutchinson.

For the study, three people were trained in 10 techniques. If I understood correctly, for each person, some techniques were learned by video and some were learned by having an instructor teach them. For the techs. learned by video, the instructor served as a "dummy" bur didn't offer corrections. The study was done for the Intl. Assoc. for Behavior Analysis.

The article noted that 35% of ads in Black Belt mention some sort of distance education.

The article was very upbeat about distance education. (If I were to editorialize I might say "This shoddy 'study' and supporting article seem like simply a shill for video education programs", but we all know that Black Belt has too much integrity for that. :shrug: ) I think more research needs to be done.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by arnisador
There's an article in the current (Sept. 2003) issue of Black belt by Bobby Newman, Ph.D. on a study of video learning. It shows a picture of one of Mr. Tatum's videos but actually used a Dragon Kenpo Karate Academy video by Ed Hutchinson.

For the study, three people were trained in 10 techniques. If I understood correctly, for each person, some techniques were learned by video and some were learned by having an instructor teach them. For the techs. learned by video, the instructor served as a "dummy" bur didn't offer corrections. The study was done for the Intl. Assoc. for Behavior Analysis.

The article noted that 35% of ads in Black Belt mention some sort of distance education.

The article was very upbeat about distance education. (If I were to editorialize I might say "This shoddy 'study' and supporting article seem like simply a shill for video education programs", but we all know that Black Belt has too much integrity for that. :shrug: ) I think more research needs to be done.

Unless the good doctor has a black in the discipline in question, how could he make an assessment of the effectiveness. I tend to agree with you. He was making a commercial or a bad disertation.

 

[Michael Billings]

Why would such an esteemed journal as Black Belt Magazine (tongue in cheek), promote articles regarding distance learning? Hmm... let's think about it. Can you say "Advertising Revenue?" I knew that you could.

How could they publish any article against video learning, maybe actually cutting off a source of their own revenue from advertisers? If I was running an ad with them for my video learing program, I would be pissed if an article in the same magazine came out saying it is not an effective way to learn. On the contrary, it serves the magazine and the video advertisers to publish anything promoting this method of instruction.

-MB

 

[Turner]

In the past I have used Mr. Newman's research as 'proof' of my point of view, but I do agree that it is a shoddy study. At one time I was a member of Dragon Kenpo because I really loved the concept of what it stood for, but I never had a very high opinion of the actual art. When I think of Kenpo I think of sophistication and Dragon Kenpo is simply not very sophisticated. (If you'd like to see the techniques and my analysis of them, please visit the forum at www.idka.org). The Dragon Kenpo study on focused on the 'how,' or the mechanics of a technique... just like the over all Dragon Kenpo course... providing no insight as to the 'why." or the principles and theories behind the techniques.

Is that bad? Well, I've studied many martial arts up to the Black Belt level and in my experience ONLY Kenpo and Brazilian Jujitsu teach the actual 'why' of a technique. I still consider it bad, but I think that the Dragon Kenpo study might be a fair example of the normal school. Problem is, I'm not interested in normal schools. I'm interested in learning and teaching people both 'how' and 'why.' I'm naturally disposed to being both the watch maker and the ironworker and not just the ironworker like many martial arts are. I do think that a person can learn both the 'how' and 'why' of a technique through distance learning if such a program was developed. I don't have proof of that and I would love to be able to put together my own study to see if my instincts are right. I personally think that IF a student is really serious about learning the martial arts, it doesn't matter whether it is in person or via distance. Distance is just going to take a little more honor and a little more self motivation than having that good ole family feel of the Dojo to keep you coming back. The type of student that would work through the difficulties of a distance learning program is probably very rare and so the distance courses that would actually work don't have many students. Instead you get people going after the easy courses like Dragon Kenpo or Chief Adrian's. Instant Black Belt.

Yeah, I got my Black Belt through Dragon Kenpo. I still can't stand wearing it even though my Black Belt was validated by my Tang Soo Do instructor and my Shoriniji Kempo instructor (who actually asked me to take over for him and teach my art when personal problems forced him to step down). I love to teach, but I've decided to start over in Kenpo. It's hard because the town where I'm at has been begging me to start teaching, but I want to learn and teach EPAK and won't until I'm able to.
I have 50 students lined up to come learn with me and I've gotten messages of people wanting to travel 2 hours just to study under me. It has been my dream since I was 11 to teach martial arts full time and it is so very difficult to humble myself and start all over 'with an empty cup,' knowing that I could have that dream right now if I just compromised on my ethics and opened up a school... but Instead it may take me five to ten more years to get my Third Degree Black Belt and by then they'll have forgotten. Yet one has to be honorable. You have to do the honorable thing no matter what the concequences and that attitude is an absolute MUST for learning via distance. There are so many short cuts that you can take, so many ways that you can cheat... But if you refuse to give into those temptations and approach the study of the martial arts like a personal student would... I believe that you can progress at the same level as a personal student.

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Why would such an esteemed journal as Black Belt Magazine (tongue in cheek), promote articles regarding distance learning? Hmm... let's think about it. Can you say "Advertising Revenue?" I knew that you could.

OK, I'll chime in.

Around 1995 when Mr. Duffy and I were looking at doing some belt tapes and I actually did a final project in college budgeting, scheduling and researching this, I got ad rates from Black Belt magazine and their sister publications.

At this time the IKC came out with or had just come out with their Full Page Ad "Attention Independent Kenpo Practicioners" which later changed to "Attention Independent Karate Practicioners" or something like it.

After I wrote everything up, we were either told by them or we noticed in their policies that we could not advertise Video Instructional/Rank Advancement material and we fell into this category.

So there is an example of when a full page ad was running even though it directly contradicted their advertising policies. I'm sure they later went on to revise that policy because it was not long before Rick Fowler, Larry Tatum, and Al Farnsworth all had ads in Black Belt for instructional videos.

We did not pursue the issue with them or make the videos after all. But if I had to I might be able to find a copy of their guidelines or even a whole magazine to offer as evidence of this "quandry."

 

[warriorsage]

Being an IKCA video black belt myself, I thought I owed it to them to post some ideas on this.

I consider myself to be a fairly talented martial artist. Some days I probably think too highly of my skills, while ohter times I'm humbled by the skills of others and realize how far I really have to go. To me this is a good place to be and sometimes I go back and forth with my self-appraisal on the same day.

I spent a little over three years training in the standard fashion, in a dojo (dojang), but eventually I became disillusioned with my fighting skills and came to the conclusion that for some people the choice of the art does make a difference. At that point I decided upon kenpo (I'd been researching it for nearly a year) & I went with the IKCA despite my skepticism, mainly because there were no kenpo schools locally that actually taught kenpo. I was pleased with my choice then and now.

The IKCA gave me a strong foundation in basics, and the sense to appreciate how these basics make for strong techniques, regardless of the number. I consider myself lucky to get such a strong initiation into kenpo. Since then, or concurrently, I've trained part time at an ex-AKKI affiliated school and have been working with Clyde, the "armpit with eyes."

I've been exposed to different methodologies and skills, and I see other options for my kenpo future. Sometimes I've been overwhelmed by the sophistication and the intricacies of this art, but at no time have I felt embarassed or completely outclassed simply because I was a video student.

Let me end this epic by stating this: I've seen my share of video students who don't measure up to my high standards, but I've seen just as many students from in-house instruction that need just as much work. I could spend hours discussing some of the merits video training has over traditional mthods, but I think those that would understand it, already do and those who don't, never will. I wouldn't trade my IKCA experience for anything, and I'm just as happy with my exposure to EPAK.

Salute

 

[arnisador]

Let me be clear that I was being critical of the Black Belt article that uses the veneer of science to support distance education, not of distance education itself.

Clearly there's a place for distance education. One of my academic colleagues once pointed out that those in academia who criticize learning remotely should recall that the oldest form of mass distance education is the book, which has a revered history.

There's an important distinction btweeen learning from a video, which is clearly possible, and achieving rank from someone who can't feel you hit. It's the latter that bothers me. Learning from a video/DVD? Certainly, especially learning useful tidbits here and there--that's done all the time. I wish I could afford all those grappling videos to pick up some hints!

I believe at this point I could take video lessons in certain arts and learn the material reasonably well. Absolutely, it would improve my skills if I worked at it. I wouldn't want to see a complete beginner do it in most cases.

But I think ranking must be done in-person. It's the only way to see who can rock and who can't.

 

[Michael Billings]

Video as an adjunct to your training is fine. You have a skill set from another Art, I bet it translates over fine. If you go bang with Clyde occassionally, you really know how your skill set stands up and can clearly differentiate what comes from the video, and what you brought to the table, then you are a much better judge of "distance learning" than I. Sometimes it is all you have, but I admire you for "putting yourself out there" and banging with Kenpo guys who do it every day with live partners.

Nothing is wrong with "distance learning" per se, rather it is the $995 Black Belt I object to, and a false sense of security you get when you graduate from this type of program. Once again reference my earlier post with the Black Belt Pledge.

Oss
-MB

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Turner
but Instead it may take me five to ten more years to get my Third Degree Black Belt and by then they'll have forgotten.

Why do you have to wait for third degree black to begin teaching?

I read somewhere that Ed Parker began teaching before getting his black belt, as well as many others not as talented as him.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by warriorsage
Being an IKCA video black belt myself, I thought I owed it to them to post some ideas on this.

I consider myself to be a fairly talented martial artist. Some days I probably think too highly of my skills, while ohter times I'm humbled by the skills of others and realize how far I really have to go. To me this is a good place to be and sometimes I go back and forth with my self-appraisal on the same day.

I spent a little over three years training in the standard fashion, in a dojo (dojang), but eventually I became disillusioned with my fighting skills and came to the conclusion that for some people the choice of the art does make a difference. At that point I decided upon kenpo (I'd been researching it for nearly a year) & I went with the IKCA despite my skepticism, mainly because there were no kenpo schools locally that actually taught kenpo. I was pleased with my choice then and now.

The IKCA gave me a strong foundation in basics, and the sense to appreciate how these basics make for strong techniques, regardless of the number. I consider myself lucky to get such a strong initiation into kenpo. Since then, or concurrently, I've trained part time at an ex-AKKI affiliated school and have been working with Clyde, the "armpit with eyes."

I've been exposed to different methodologies and skills, and I see other options for my kenpo future. Sometimes I've been overwhelmed by the sophistication and the intricacies of this art, but at no time have I felt embarassed or completely outclassed simply because I was a video student.

Let me end this epic by stating this: I've seen my share of video students who don't measure up to my high standards, but I've seen just as many students from in-house instruction that need just as much work. I could spend hours discussing some of the merits video training has over traditional mthods, but I think those that would understand it, already do and those who don't, never will. I wouldn't trade my IKCA experience for anything, and I'm just as happy with my exposure to EPAK.

Salute

Ron, you have a natural talent, all I've done is facilitate bringing those natural talents to the surface, and quite well I might add. I constantly brag about you to others and will continue to do so. You have a gift and you're making the best of it, keep up the good work and I'll talk at you soon.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Turner]

Why do you have to wait for third degree black to begin teaching?

Perhaps Kenpo is different because there is such a shortage of Kenpo black belts, just like there is a shortage of BJJ black belts (where the average instructor in my area is purple belt), but in most martial arts that I've studied you weren't considered qualified to teach or to promote anyone until you had your 3rd degree black belt.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Turner
Perhaps Kenpo is different because there is such a shortage of Kenpo black belts, just like there is a shortage of BJJ black belts (where the average instructor in my area is purple belt), but in most martial arts that I've studied you weren't considered qualified to teach or to promote anyone until you had your 3rd degree black belt.

I think some people use that as a way to keep people returning and bringing in the money for as long as possible.

 

[molson]

I think everyone agrees to some extent that using video can be beneficial, but paying $995 to buy a black belt on an honor system just isn't right. I know myself that I had to bust my butt for many years too get to wear a black belt. I've spoken with the gentleman in question when I moved to Dallas. As soon as I saw the ads in BB I new it wasn't for me, as well as some other things. I am always looking for new tapes to enhance my training as well as various web sites such as Mr. Billings.

 

[Doc]

There is no shortage of kenpo black belts at any level. In fact there are too many. The 3rd degree teaching requirement was and is a business consideration to keep blacks in the school as free labor as long as possible. Does it have validity in reality for teachers to develop skills? Of course it does, but considering the quality of the product most schools produce, it is a moot point and far down on the consideration list. Most regardless of rank would have difficulty teaching my Orange belts night in and night out how to execute basics and techniques would really be a stretch.

 

[thesensei]

Originally posted by Turner
... in most martial arts that I've studied you weren't considered qualified to teach or to promote anyone until you had your 3rd degree black belt.

In many schools that is the case. I have trained in several schools. Among them are 2 TKD dojangs, and 1 American karate schools. In all three of those schools, the majority of their black belts were not qualified to teach until 3rd degree black. They tended to be rather sloppy, and lacked the knowledge of why they did things the way they did. They seemed to be unable to effectively express and teach the things they were doing.

On the other hand, kenpo is generally not "most martial arts." I trained in chinese kenpo (1960's Parker curriculum) for 3 years with my original instructor before I earned my brown belt. During that time, he taught me not only how to DO, but also how to TEACH. He had me teach classes and individuals. When I received my brown belt, one of the "privileges" that came along with it was the permission and blessing from my instructor to teach unsupervised, and personally rank my students up to two ranks below myself (blue belt). When I had to move to go to college, I began teaching children at a local YMCA. I taught and graded them myself, all with my instructor's approval, though he was not there to see the students. He knew what he had taught me, and trusted that I was teaching the same thing to my students.

To summarize, who cares what belt you wear? The key is that you must have an understanding of HOW and WHY, and you must be able to effectively communicate those principles.

Salute,
Jeremiah

 

[arnisador]

http://www.darkdragonkenpo.com/distance learning.htm

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by arnisador
http://www.darkdragonkenpo.com/distance learning.htm

Dude,

I wanted to post that.
Their ring caught my eye in the ad.
http://www.darkdragonkenpo.com/rings.htm