Another Get your Kenpo Blackbelt at home.

[MJS]

You're right, it is hard to tell. It sounds easier than it is I guess. But I suppose you can watch a few classes, talk to the Inst. and the students, and if he happens to be part of an org., maybe checking with them to see if he is legit. might be a good start.

But, you are correct. How will a new student know the difference if they never trained before? They wont know what to look for. I suppse, just like buying a car, home, or any other big purchase, you need to find some way to check. The internet is a good place to start!

Mike

 

[theletch1]

I'm not gonna weigh in on the video series here. You've all already said pretty much what I would say myself. What I will address is picking that first instructor. It is rare that someone who has never had any training in the martial arts has any idea how to go about researching an instructor. To do so with any degree of efficiency requires at least a passable amount of knowledge of martial arts in general. Go to sit in on a class? No, that's just a sales job and is easily misleading. If the instructor is a huckster and his students are clueless then the unitiated visitor will not be able to pick up on it. Research him on the web? Not always. There are some very good instructors around that aren't easily found on the web and some of the biggest jokes around (CHAK ring a bell) have sites that would easily fool the begginer. We, as martial artists ourselves have a responsibility to the furtherence of all of our arts to proactively assist new folks in finding quality instruction that suits them. Even if this means sending them to a style other than our own.

There will always be people who want to take the easy road, to get the rank without the work and so long as human nature remains the same there will always be someone there to take advantage of that. Those of us who put in the years of work to earn rank, gain profficiency are in it for love of the art and an understanding that that is the only way. Those that order the rank through the mail simply don't understand what the arts are all about.

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by theletch1
Those that order the rank through the mail simply don't understand what the arts are all about.

I don't get it. This seems to me to be like ordering a worn Leather Harley Jacket on eBay and talking about how many years you rode a hog.

I guess that could be fun until a Hell's Angel hears your story.

I know there are other perspectives, but this is why I can't understand why anyone would want to buy a Black Belt...

I guess there are people that will buy one and then use that to gain some position somewhere or charge money to teach.
:idunno:

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by theletch1
I'm not gonna weigh in on the video series here. You've all already said pretty much what I would say myself. What I will address is picking that first instructor. It is rare that someone who has never had any training in the martial arts has any idea how to go about researching an instructor. To do so with any degree of efficiency requires at least a passable amount of knowledge of martial arts in general. Go to sit in on a class? No, that's just a sales job and is easily misleading. If the instructor is a huckster and his students are clueless then the unitiated visitor will not be able to pick up on it. Research him on the web? Not always. There are some very good instructors around that aren't easily found on the web and some of the biggest jokes around (CHAK ring a bell) have sites that would easily fool the begginer. We, as martial artists ourselves have a responsibility to the furtherence of all of our arts to proactively assist new folks in finding quality instruction that suits them. Even if this means sending them to a style other than our own.

There will always be people who want to take the easy road, to get the rank without the work and so long as human nature remains the same there will always be someone there to take advantage of that. Those of us who put in the years of work to earn rank, gain profficiency are in it for love of the art and an understanding that that is the only way. Those that order the rank through the mail simply don't understand what the arts are all about.

But how are you going to know if the guy you are training under is a fake or not? Just because you put in the hard work, you still might be learning from a fake.

Unfortunately, it might take years for the person to realize that they wasted many thousands of dollars.

Mike

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by kenpo_cory
No, what's hard to believe is that people think they can obtain the SKILL of a black belt through instruction given on a video tape.

What abouth the IKCA? That's through video instruction?

 

[Michael Billings]

... as far as I know Mr. Sullivan and Vic LeRoux have their bone fides and are pioneers in making this work. They also see their students and test them.

See:

Karate Connection

It is substantively different from Chief Roman's paradigm of teaching. Still not my preferred method, but hey ... it is a big world and there just are not enough qualified Kenpo Instructors to go around.

MB
Kenpo-Texas.com

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
What abouth the IKCA? That's through video instruction?

Things to note about the IKCA here.

1)Not ALL IKCA is done via video.

1a) Once a certified instructor, one can promote up to 1st
brown without video instruction or approval.

2) Video learning is only part of their process. A video test for
each belt must be submitted. A video critique of the test, pass or
fail is then sent back, along with personalized video instruction for
the next rank, which goes along with the video instruction of the
next rank.
NOTE: More fail the video tests than most I've ever heard about
from other places (personally heard of which consists mostly of
internet "relationships".

3) Watch these guys in action. They just might impress you.

 

[Michael Billings]

That was my point Kirk. It is not all bad ... it is the selling a belt that is bad.

 

[Kalicombat]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
This is NOT the same thing Chuck Sullivan is doing. At least there is some quality control with Mr. Sullivan ... and you know it is Mr. Parker's Kenpo ... and the system in it's entirety.
OSS

Mr. Billings,
I agree with most of your points, except this one. The IKCA does not teach Mr. Parker's American kenpo and the system is not EPAK in it's entirety. Mr Sullivan is in fact bona fide, but the IKCA system is quite different from EPAK. While it incorporated the same principles and concepts, it only has 55 techniques, 1 master form, a kicking set, and some unique drills. However, if a person is interested in learning ED PARKER's AMERICAN KENPO, the IKCA is not a viable source of instruction. In my opinion, it is an option for those that have no other medium, however, there are tons of EPAK videos available. Most IKCA'ers achieve blackbelt in under 3 years. Im neither trying to discredit the IKCA nor pass judgement. Merely stating fact. IF a person wants to learn the EPAK system, including all techniques, extensions, sets, forms, peldges, creed, language, concepts, and principles, then the IKCA is not a source of information for achienving that goal. If a person wants to learn Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Leroux's interpretation of the Kenpo that they were taught by Mr. Parker, and are not interested in achieving EPAK instruction, then by all means, the IKCA is their ticket.

Yours In Kenpo,
Gary Catherman

 

[arnisador]

Most IKCA'ers achieve blackbelt in under 3 years.

What is the average in EPAK?

 

[clapping_tiger]

Originally posted by Kirk
Things to note about the IKCA here.

1)Not ALL IKCA is done via video.

1a) Once a certified instructor, one can promote up to 1st
brown without video instruction or approval.

2) Video learning is only part of their process. A video test for
each belt must be submitted. A video critique of the test, pass or
fail is then sent back, along with personalized video instruction for
the next rank, which goes along with the video instruction of the
next rank.
NOTE: More fail the video tests than most I've ever heard about
from other places (personally heard of which consists mostly of
internet "relationships".

3) Watch these guys in action. They just might impress you.

That is exactly right. Although I have not personally tested via video, (except my Black Belt)I have met some other members of the IKCA that that are quite good and quite knowledgeable. One of the reasons you need to send in your test for Black Belt is that Mr. LeRoux and Mr. Sullivan do want to make sure that all Black Belt in the IKCA are truely quality martial artists. Even if you go to a school and obtain rank through a certified instructor, they must see you Black Belt test. And really, what is the difference (test wise)if someone is sitting on a panel watching your test, or they see it on video. If they have a question on whether you are hitting your targets, preforming a technique correctly, or anything else in question they can always rewind it or play it in slow motion. That is something you cannot do in person. You do get an in depth review on video tape of what you have shown and thing to improve on and things you are doing wrong that need to be fixed. They show you any part of any technique you may be doing incorrectly and so on. Overall I think the system works just as well as any other system.

 

[clapping_tiger]

Originally posted by Kalicombat

I agree with most of your points, except this one. The IKCA does not teach Mr. Parker's American Kenpo and the system is not EPAK in it's entirety.

Very true and they do not claim to teach EPAK.

Originally posted by Kalicombat

While it incorporated the same principles and concepts, it only has 55 techniques.

This is still the old issue of who knows more and who knows less. The goal here is to teach the student the same Kenpo principles and movements in less techniques. You are encouraged to create your own extensions (I don't know if this is done in EPAK) from orange belt on. there are extension suggestions and some that are required. The way I see it (once again this is my opinion and not what is stated through the IKCA) if I can learn a Kenpo System that teaches me the same principles and concepts in only 55 techniques, or learn one in 124 techniques. I will go for the 55. (actually 60, there are only 55 techniques in the master form Here is a list of the techniques--http://www.metzsmartialarts.com/techniques.html

Originally posted by Kalicombat

1 master form, a kicking set, and some unique drills.

To tell you the truth the master form is quite a challenge. It may only be 1 form, but is taught in 6 segments. The first one is first taught at orange belt. The unique thing about the form is that it is put together so it makes one long 3 min. form. It is true that the only set that is required is the kicking set for testing, but there is a lot of other material that is not required for rank tests that a student can learn and apply to their study.

I know you were not knocking the IKCA, but I just wanted to elaborate for others who may have wanted to know more.
:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

... and the standard answer, "Average people don't get Black Belts." No but seriously folks, in EPAK it can take anywhere from 4.5 - 7 years. This has been my experience, with some taking a little longer even. Depends so much on how much time the student devotes to training, the level of the instructor, what the school offers in terms of time, and we all know that various EPAK schools, while teaching the same or similar curriculuums, do so at different rates and have different ranks for the same material. Reference the 32/24/16 technique systems. And this does not address the Tracy schools or Traco, which I would argue are still EPAK, just an earlier version and cannot be excluded or minimized.

 

[theletch1]

But how are you going to know if the guy you are training under is a fake or not? Just because you put in the hard work, you still might be learning from a fake.

Research, investigate, ask questions BEFORE you commit yourself to the school. Follow your gut instinct. If you are serious about the arts then the time to find out all you can about an instructor before the commitment is a small price to pay. Even with this a few "mail-order" masters will slip through the cracks. I firmly believe that the mindset needed is that it is the knowledge that is important, the self improvement gained and not affiliations or rank that make the difference. Finding that you've picked the wrong instructor after even just a year or two of training can be devastating (been there done that). The truth is there are no guarantees but there are ways to hedge your bets. Ask to see a potential instructors credentials, talk to his/her students and above all be suspicious when researching a potential instructor. It may sound a bit unfair to have a suspicious outlook on all instructors before you join up but you get burned once and you tend to approach the search for a martial arts home from a bit more of a defensive posture.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by theletch1
Research, investigate, ask questions BEFORE you commit yourself to the school. Follow your gut instinct. If you are serious about the arts then the time to find out all you can about an instructor before the commitment is a small price to pay. Even with this a few "mail-order" masters will slip through the cracks. I firmly believe that the mindset needed is that it is the knowledge that is important, the self improvement gained and not affiliations or rank that make the difference. Finding that you've picked the wrong instructor after even just a year or two of training can be devastating (been there done that). The truth is there are no guarantees but there are ways to hedge your bets. Ask to see a potential instructors credentials, talk to his/her students and above all be suspicious when researching a potential instructor. It may sound a bit unfair to have a suspicious outlook on all instructors before you join up but you get burned once and you tend to approach the search for a martial arts home from a bit more of a defensive posture.

UUmmm....correct me if I'm wrong here, but didnt I already say this stuff???? I believe I did, and you turned around and said that talking to the Inst., talking to the students, watching a class, among the other things I said, would not be effective, and now you are sitting here saying the EXACT same thing as I did???

Mike

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... and the standard answer, "Average people don't get Black Belts." No but seriously folks, in EPAK it can take anywhere from 4.5 - 7 years. This has been my experience, with some taking a little longer even. Depends so much on how much time the student devotes to training, the level of the instructor, what the school offers in terms of time, and we all know that various EPAK schools, while teaching the same or similar curriculuums, do so at different rates and have different ranks for the same material. Reference the 32/24/16 technique systems. And this does not address the Tracy schools or Traco, which I would argue are still EPAK, just an earlier version and cannot be excluded or minimized.

For us, it takes a minimum of 950 hours of verified lab time. Anyone who thinks they can learn to fight by video, deserves whatever they earn.

 

[Michael Billings]

Hopefully the video's are ancillary or an adjunct to your primary training. I have no experience in working, testing, teaching with anyone who has progressed solely through video. That should say something ... like wouldn't you want to meet and greet Kenpo Black Belts when you do get the chance, attend seminars, demos, tournaments. I can only think of a couple of reasons why you would not seek out qualified instructors:

1) You are so remote, and travel not at all, so you don't go to events in the same or contiguous states.

2) You actually KNOW what you know, or how little you know, and do not want to "put it out there".

In all honesty, since I never have met a video Black Belt in 24 years of camps, seminars, etc., maybe I am being uncharitable, but with Gary Catherman's input ... which I did not know, I understand, maybe, why I have not met one of their Black Belts.

Mr. Billings,
I agree with most of your points, except this one. The IKCA does not teach Mr. Parker's American kenpo and the system is not EPAK in it's entirety. Mr Sullivan is in fact bona fide, but the IKCA system is quite different from EPAK. While it incorporated the same principles and concepts, it only has 55 techniques, 1 master form, a kicking set, and some unique drills. However, if a person is interested in learning ED PARKER's AMERICAN KENPO, the IKCA is not a viable source of instruction. In my opinion, it is an option for those that have no other medium, however, there are tons of EPAK videos available. Most IKCA'ers achieve blackbelt in under 3 years. Im neither trying to discredit the IKCA nor pass judgement. Merely stating fact. IF a person wants to learn the EPAK system, including all techniques, extensions, sets, forms, peldges, creed, language, concepts, and principles, then the IKCA is not a source of information for achienving that goal. If a person wants to learn Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Leroux's interpretation of the Kenpo that they were taught by Mr. Parker, and are not interested in achieving EPAK instruction, then by all means, the IKCA is their ticket.

Yours In Kenpo,
Gary Catherman

 

[cdhall]

I saw an IKCA orange belt at a tournament last year or maybe the year before here in Austin.

I was afraid to go talk to her. I think she was a teenager or younger and was there with her Dad. I recognized her "big Kenpo Patch" right away on my way across the gym, but thought I should not go say much of anything for fear I'd rattle off where in town she could study in person. We have 3 studios strung pretty much on a North-South line here in Austin, so I left her alone because as much as I truly admired her spirit I did not want to be condescending to her and I could not think of who to talk to her without asking why she was not with Mr. Billings, Shroder or Duffy. This was in Round Rock, so she was most likely closest to Mr. Billings by the way.

I think it was very brave of her to go to a tournament when she learns by video. I was impressed by that thought.

Maybe if I'd run into her again I'd have spoken to her but it is possible that I also didn't see her again after whatever it was that I was doing.

I will also confess that I think a 3rd reason that someone might do a Video Study is of course for Rank alone. For example, I think that I know enough Kenpo that I could buy all of Mr. Tatum's tapes and get a Black Belt from him via his home study course because I have so much experience in related striking arts. In this case I mean that I don't need to spend any time in class working on new moves, I would only need to know what the moves are. This of course would not be equivalent to training in class, but it could be sufficient for me to get the knowledge.

But if you don't know anything and you take your first martial arts via video, that seems to me like preparing to go to the Moon without simulations. I mean, Astronauts used swimming pools and airplanes etc to simulate that as close as they could because it was necessary.

I see Kenpo, the Martial Arts in General and Especially Sparring in that same context. You have to learn it by doing. This is not like getting a degree in History where you don't have to be there to know what happened.

 

[Turner]

Distance Learning Programs
Picture yourself in a typical Dojo: You and the other students stand in rows facing your Sensei, listening as he outlines a certain technique or principle. If you have a question you raise your hand, and when it comes time to demonstrate your technique your instructor or a senior student is there if you need help. Simple enough, but what if you’re taking a distance learning program?

Q: For distance learning programs, how is rank usually obtained?

A: Most often, the instructor will require that you send a video tape of yourself demonstrating the techniques before providing you rank certification.

Some organizations provide the rank based on the honor system, providing the certificate when you contact them and tell them you feel ready to be promoted, however this is often a dishonest method and testing in person should be required for all ranks.

Q: What do I do if I need help with my technique or have a question about a principle?

A: The most obvious place to seek assistance is from the course's instructor. Be sure to establish a personal relationship with the instructor: Contact him or her routinely and be proactive in seeking advice. Many quality distance learning programs also have help desks to assist students. Many courses have an online forum where you can post your questions and have instructors or other students provide their input and experience.

If you’re taking a course that doesn't provide support, you’re on your own. But that doesn’t mean you can’t get help. Try searching the Web for information. The Internet is a vast storehouse of information. Help is out there, you just have to find it. I don't have a distance learning course but I offer free pre-testing or technique analysis to anyone that needs input.

Q: Is it easier to cheat in distance learning courses?

A: Cheating has always been fairly easy for the determined person, there are plenty of places where you can buy a certificate and a belt for under $30 with no proof of experience or previous rank. You can print off a good looking certificate using tools that come standard with most computers. However, cheaters mostly harm themselves. When/if they start teaching (most of them do it just to boost their ego and can pretend to be a know-it-all on the net.) if their students are intelligent they will automatically recognize them as a fraud.

Q: How do I know how well or bad I'm doing if I don't have an instructor teaching me in person?

A: In a well-run online course, students should receive regular feedback. Feedback is the most important thing in learning a skill. Since you are all alone with no classmates to compare your skill to, you need to have an outside opinion. Video tape your practice sessions regularly so that you can watch yourself and compare yourself with your instructor or send the tape to your instructor or if that costs too much, find someone that will give you feed back for a smaller fee. Even if you are not required to get feedback or skill assessment with your course, get it anyway. You cannot honestly claim rank just because you feel ready to wear it, because you will have a biased opinion and either judge yourself too easily or too harshly depending on your character.

Skill assessment in a distance learning environment is great for the distant learner. The examiner is able to play the video tape in slow motion, in reverse and as many times as he needs where as in testing someone in person they student would get worn out if the instructor tried that.

The draw backs of a distance learning course is often the lack of support and the curriculum is often watered down a little bit in order to fit it in the allotted time. Due to the fact that you aren't attending a class you might find it difficult to find a training partner to practice the techniques with. Having a training partner is absolutely essential to progress in any training program.

The benifits of a distance learning course is that the information provided can be viewed over and over until the information is firmly established in your mind. In person the instructor will more likely focus on the one aspect of the technique that he feels is most important and then move on to another technique, on video you can watch one part of the technique and then rewind and then place your focus on his footwork, then his weight placement, then his hand placement, then his hip rotation, so on and so forth. In class if you keep asking your instructor to go back and do it again so that you can see each aspect he'll probably get annoyed. With video you can go full speed, half speed, super slow motion, and reverse. When you tape yourself, you and your instructor can do the same thing in order to best judge the quality of your technique. I feel that this is so benificial that I video tape myself and my students in class so that we can see how we look from the third person perspective.

MOTIVATIONS FOR HOME STUDY

1. Simply put, knowledge is power. The more you know the better. Distance learning can provide different perspectives on the art that you study or give you a totally different perspective from an art that you have no experience in.

2. Style availability. It is a bad idea to train in a martial art just because the school is the one closest to your house. Each type of martial art is best suited to a person of a particular mindset or body type. If you are tall and limber, kicking arts are great. If you are short, Judo is great... so on and so forth. Often enough the perfect art for a person isn't found in their general area and so a Distance program is the way to obtain that information.

3. Conflict of interests. I've had a couple of people talk to me about driving a long distance to train with me or ask about distance learning because they had a personality clash with the instructor that was near-by.

4. Cost. There are people who desperately want to learn the martial arts but the cost for training is more than their life-style can permit and they don't feel comfortable going to the local instructors and working something out.

5. Personality. There are people who wish to learn the martial arts but don't feel comfortable in a group environment and would prefer to learn in the privacy of their own home.

6. Ego <negative, but still a motivation>. There are those that seek a course that will provide the desired black belt certification without them having to work too hard for it.

7. Time. I started using distance learning courses because I was working a rotating shift so I would only have been going to class every third week. I wasn't about to pay for a full month of classes just to take one class when the shift allowed.

I believe that distance learning courses can't replace quality instruction and I would recommend an individual getting training in the 'traditional' setting over distance learning, but I do believe that a beginner can make good use of the information and develop skill in the art IF they train seriously on a regular basis. That IF is very important. You have to be serious about learning the martial arts. If you need external motivation, home-study is bad because you don't have anything but self motivation. IF you are serious about learning the martial arts you don't even need a complete series of video tapes to teach you. You can learn on your own... as I did. I'm not exceptionally smart nor am I athletically inclined... It is just the fact that if you throw punches and kicks at a moderately hard object your body will naturally correct itself. (That is why they say the heavy bag is unforgiving... if you throw a punch or kick wrong it's gonna hurt.)

Remember that most distance learning programs, aside from those like Dragon Kenpo and The Chiefs, require that you take the time to visit the instructor at least once a year. The more time you spend (as a long distance student) with other students who've learned in the traditional sense the better you will see how your abilities compare.

I firmly reject the idea that you can't learn self defense from video. If you can learn basics and forms then you can learn self defense. It is all motion...

Now, I am biased because I'm in a situation where I need to take a distance course based on the fact that I've visited all of the local instructors and I think that what they offer is pathetic. I'm being very harsh, but it is the truth. I'm not a fan of TKD or Aikido and most of the schools in my area are either TKD or offshoots of TKD. The rest are Judo. There is one BJJ class that I would love to attend but it starts too early in the evening for me to get to in time. So I'm stuck. I have always wanted to learn Kenpo Karate and so I'm doing my best to learn via distance. If there is nothing around, what option is there? I don't have a license so I can't travel the three hours to the nearest Kenpo school in Shepardston W.Va... which I plan on doing at least once a month or every other month when I finally do get my license, if I can get there after leaving work at 5...

 

[Michael Billings]

Just an FYI. For several years I lived 300+ miles away from any Kenpo instructor. I was 2nd Black going for 3rd. I got my material from my instructor at the time, travelled several times to my current teacher for refinement and learning "HOW" to move, not just the material ... which I had. The nice compromise that worked, was that I could not just video tape him, but under his supervision, I taped myself with him. I had the audio, the video, had it in writing, with my notes, and I had the kinesthetic (the most important thing for me in learning.)

I just know that I could not have learned the HOW's without an instructor. The WHAT (or material) I could get. There just is no substitute.

I think about Doc Chapel's almost 1000 hours of "lab" time. Broken down 950 hours is 71+ per month, or 17 hours per week, for a year. This could be done in a year "theoretically" .... yeah, right. That is in no way reality. It would take years to master the material neccessary for the physical application (lab) and the intellectual requirements (home study.)

I used my own tapes as a referent for all the Black Belt Extensions. I may not have needed them, but making them was part of the learning process that helped me not need them.