A serious question to adept martial artists about physical fitness...

[jobo]

Lots of disagreement with this..
punching with light weights anyone here do it? (Floyd Mayweather does it)

Again reading the pros and cons, it is all anecdotal evidence and appeal to champs who do it. If you look for any science behind it, you don't see that. That thread pretty much sums up my previous post in regards to training practices in combat sports/arts

its resistance training, there is quite a lot of evidence that resistance training is effective

 

[jobo]

You develop fast twitch muscles best through lifting weights. Upper-body plyometrics is infinitely better than shadow boxing.

you don't increase your speed of movement by moving heavy weights slowly, you do by moving lighter weights quickly, which is amongst other things what shadow boxing does, the weights being your arms, the gloves your wearing or the light weights you are holding in your hand, its not the fast twitch muscle that are the factor, it your cns connection to them

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you don't increase your speed of movement by moving heavy weights slowly, you do by moving lighter weights quickly, which is amongst other things what shadow boxing does, the weights being your arms, the gloves your wearing or the light weights you are holding in your hand, its not the fast twitch muscle that are the factor, it your cns connection to them

This is my understanding, as well. Do any of our appropriately degreed members have some clarification or information to add to this?

 

[Dirty Dog]

This is my understanding, as well. Do any of our appropriately degreed members have some clarification or information to add to this?

Jobo is correct. Fast twitch muscles are developed by fast movements.

 

[jobo]

This is my understanding, as well. Do any of our appropriately degreed members have some clarification or information to add to this?

like all these things , there is a question of degree, if you train yourself to move say a 300lb bench press slowly, then there is little doubt you can now press 100lbs more quickly, but that will make little or no difference to how fast you can move your un weighted arm.

you get better results moving 25 lbs very quickly or a couple of pounds extremely quickly as that is taking the muscle you have developed with your heavy press and training your cns to deliver fast movement. You have to train with a close proximity to the movement you are trying to develop, bench pressing and or press ups, are not that close to a punching movement that you can train them and develop your cns to deliver a fast/ powerful punch using them exclusively, not that it won't make your punch harder, just that there is no better alternative to develop punching speed and hence power, than doing a punching movement FAST with or without moderate weight

 

[punisher73]

its resistance training, there is quite a lot of evidence that resistance training is effective

As you always say to people, "where is the specific study that says this"? So, I would like to see the specific study and research that this was tested and not just a transfer of other training and saying it improves punching.

Yes, resistance training can increase muscle speed etc. But, punching with a weight changes the dynamics and muscles used in a punch. You would need to produce a study that shows that it actually increases the rate of muscles firing to actually improve speed beyond the "hard wiring" increase of a beginner grooving the motion to become more effective regardless.

Using weights while doing other exercises was popular in the 70's and fell out of disuse because of injuries.

Walking or otherwise exercising with hand weights is very hard on the shoulders, according to Dr. Mehmet Oz in "You: Losing Weight." It can turn a simple workout into increased potential for repetitive stress injuries due to the pull on your shoulders and upper arms. This risk is exacerbated while punching because your extended arm places maximum stress on that area.

You have shown nothing more than the boxing thread stated. It's a popular training tool, but no one has actually done research to support it versus other safer methods. Which is the point of this thread. Why do people use methods and others don't use methods other than personal choice when there is not a specific methodology that supports it other than "so and so" used it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you don't increase your speed of movement by moving heavy weights slowly, you do by moving lighter weights quickly, ...

Agree with you 100% there. The only problem is sometime it's hard to distinguish heavy and light. When you feel comfortable with light weight and fast speed, you may want to increase your weight a bit more. Soon you have changed from light weight to not too light weight. I have hurt my elbow joint 4 times in my life. Over self-confidence is the problem.

 

[Buka]

Contraction of muscles, we all know that's key. And it's the fast twitch we all strive for. But it's difficult trying to isolate a fast contraction in, say, your triceps, at least in punching movement. If you stand and are ready to punch, try concentrating on contracting your tricep - it's almost impossible to do.

Sure, you can do a weight training method with a tricep exercise, but it's not going to help with punching as much as you might think. It's also kind of dangerous to do the standard triceps weight exercises really fast.

What's key is contracting the muscles in your core, and the muscles of your body together as a unit. It helps them fire quicker. It helps in that split second your decide to throw that punch at that opening....by the time you think it, that punch of yours should already be returning as another one is already being thrown.

Trained with some top lever strikers. Used to do "flinch/flex exercises. Just strolling across the gym and flinching your core like your friend walking by you was going to give you a shot in the stomach you weren't ready for. At the same time you're flinching your core you do it with your grip, your hips, your legs, your back, your elbows slamming against your ribs. Just one massive contraction to your whole body for just a split second and relax immediately.

It can do wonders for your fast twitch and your punching.

The best weight exercise I've done for fast twitch punching is a bench press, but in a specific way, not the standard. And it's not for beginners who are just using weights for a little bit. Say your max bench is 250 pounds, say you can do 185 easy and often....lets just use those numbers for the sake of using something.

Throw a 45 on each end of the bar, so you have 135 lbs. Assume the bench position, bench it, lower it quickly and as you bench it - let it go at the top so the bar leaves your hands. Just an inch or so, catch it, allowing the weight to blast your arms downward [it's won't be heavy or hard to manage using the max numbers we used] but barely let it touch your chest, as opposed to bouncing it off your chest, and blast it skywards again, this time letting it go three or four inches out of your hands. Repeat. It sounds like it could be dangerous but we did them for years and years and never had any problems, accidents or mis-steps. [Just keep beginners out of the equation] They give great blasting power and speed with the extension of the arms. [but arm extension isn't exactly punching] Gives good fast twitch payoffs for the extension of your arms. Always have a trainer there. And don't friken kill yourself.

 

[jobo]

As you always say to people, "where is the specific study that says this"? So, I would like to see the specific study and research that this was tested and not just a transfer of other training and saying it improves punching.

Yes, resistance training can increase muscle speed etc. But, punching with a weight changes the dynamics and muscles used in a punch. You would need to produce a study that shows that it actually increases the rate of muscles firing to actually improve speed beyond the "hard wiring" increase of a beginner grooving the motion to become more effective regardless.

Using weights while doing other exercises was popular in the 70's and fell out of disuse because of injuries.



You have shown nothing more than the boxing thread stated. It's a popular training tool, but no one has actually done research to support it versus other safer methods. Which is the point of this thread. Why do people use methods and others don't use methods other than personal choice when there is not a specific methodology that supports it other than "so and so" used it.

punching with a light weight doesn't change the muscles use in a punch, at all

 

[Headhunter]

What a load of rubbish there's plenty of people in all types of martial arts who know loads about sport science. Sure there's some who don't but martial arts is martial arts they focus on martial arts training not weight lifting.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

martial arts is martial arts they focus on martial arts training not weight lifting.

In MA training, you use:

- partner drills to "develop" your MA skill.
- sparring/wrestling to "test" your MA skill.
- solo drills/forms to "polish" your MA skill.
- weight equipment training to "enhance" your MA skill.

The single head can enhance your leg lifting throw when training partner is not available.

 

[JR 137]

Contraction of muscles, we all know that's key. And it's the fast twitch we all strive for. But it's difficult trying to isolate a fast contraction in, say, your triceps, at least in punching movement. If you stand and are ready to punch, try concentrating on contracting your tricep - it's almost impossible to do.

Sure, you can do a weight training method with a tricep exercise, but it's not going to help with punching as much as you might think. It's also kind of dangerous to do the standard triceps weight exercises really fast.

What's key is contracting the muscles in your core, and the muscles of your body together as a unit. It helps them fire quicker. It helps in that split second your decide to throw that punch at that opening....by the time you think it, that punch of yours should already be returning as another one is already being thrown.

Trained with some top lever strikers. Used to do "flinch/flex exercises. Just strolling across the gym and flinching your core like your friend walking by you was going to give you a shot in the stomach you weren't ready for. At the same time you're flinching your core you do it with your grip, your hips, your legs, your back, your elbows slamming against your ribs. Just one massive contraction to your whole body for just a split second and relax immediately.

It can do wonders for your fast twitch and your punching.

The best weight exercise I've done for fast twitch punching is a bench press, but in a specific way, not the standard. And it's not for beginners who are just using weights for a little bit. Say your max bench is 250 pounds, say you can do 185 easy and often....lets just use those numbers for the sake of using something.

Throw a 45 on each end of the bar, so you have 135 lbs. Assume the bench position, bench it, lower it quickly and as you bench it - let it go at the top so the bar leaves your hands. Just an inch or so, catch it, allowing the weight to blast your arms downward [it's won't be heavy or hard to manage using the max numbers we used] but barely let it touch your chest, as opposed to bouncing it off your chest, and blast it skywards again, this time letting it go three or four inches out of your hands. Repeat. It sounds like it could be dangerous but we did them for years and years and never had any problems, accidents or mis-steps. [Just keep beginners out of the equation] They give great blasting power and speed with the extension of the arms. [but arm extension isn't exactly punching] Gives good fast twitch payoffs for the extension of your arms. Always have a trainer there. And don't friken kill yourself.

I’ve done the same thing, only using a Smith machine. Weight goes up as fast as you want it to, but doesn’t come back down fast. The first few times were pretty scary though; it took some trust in a machine not failing.

 

[JR 137]

punching with a light weight doesn't change the muscles use in a punch, at all

Look at force vectors. When you have a weight in your hand, the downward force vector increases (meaning you’re using more strength to keep your hand from dropping).

Rather than having a weight in your hand, you’d be far better off using a pulley or similar that resists your punching movement. Put the pulley behind you at around armpit level, handle in your hand, and punch. The resistance is directly opposing the punching motion instead of the dumbbell pulling your hand down.

The only benefit to the dumbbell being in your hand for punching is there’s a bit more inertia to overcome due to the increased mass. The dumbbell isn’t directly opposing your punching motion, it’s trying to alter the trajectory.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here are some interested ancient weight equipment training. It's easy to see that the purpose is to "enhance" MA skill and not just trying to build big muscle.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Look at force vectors. When you have a weight in your hand, the downward force vector increases (meaning you’re using more strength to keep your hand from dropping).

My initial reaction was to make essentially the same post you did, but on re-reading the line, I took it to mean that it doesn't change WHICH muscles are in use. Which it doesn't. I agree that a pulley system is probably better than punching with a dumbbell, though.

 

[JR 137]

This says it better than I did...

I’ve done this with hands and pulleys. I like the pulleys better, but some like bands.

I’ve also done the same with kicks - put an ankle cuff on, attach to pulley, and kick. Roundhouse kicks were tricky, but front, back and side kicks were fine. I like pulley better than bands.

 

[JR 137]

My initial reaction was to make essentially the same post you did, but on re-reading the line, I took it to mean that it doesn't change WHICH muscles are in use. Which it doesn't. I agree that a pulley system is probably better than punching with a dumbbell, though.

I thought that while I was writing it too. The muscles don’t change, but the emphasis does. Kind of like dips will work triceps and pecs (depending on elbow position), and bench press will too; but there’s more emphasis on the particular muscle with each exercise.

Edit: Better yet, hand position in pull-up exercises - arms out far, more back, less biceps. Hands close and palms facing each other, less back, more biceps. Same muscles used, different proportions/emphasis.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Jobo is correct. Fast twitch muscles are developed by fast movements.

You also have to add "slow-movements but with maximal loads". When you lift a certain amount of weight that's too heavy for you but are lifting it with maximum effort, then you are, in fact, hitting those fast twitch fibers. The appropriate weight would be your five-rep max and heavier.

 

[Zombocalypse]

you don't increase your speed of movement by moving heavy weights slowly, you do by moving lighter weights quickly, which is amongst other things what shadow boxing does, the weights being your arms, the gloves your wearing or the light weights you are holding in your hand, its not the fast twitch muscle that are the factor, it your cns connection to them

Jobo, Jobo, Jobo... I can't believe how others are actually agreeing with you on this.

Wrong wrong wrong.

There are two ways to recruit your Type 2 B muscle fibers. Number one: Lift a light load with maximum speed. Number two: Lift a heavy load with maximum speed.

Now, you are all wondering how the heck you can move a heavy load with maximum speed. The answer is, you lift it with maximum effort. By doing that, you will in fact be recruiting your higher-threshold motor units, as opposed to the weaker and slower "red" fibers.

PLYOMETRICS recruit your fast twitch fibers as well because you are moving a light load with maximum speed. I got the impression that you didn't know what plyometrics are.

 

[Hyoho]

To answer the original post: As it's M.A. one hopes to incorporate what we learn into natural movement. This means building up a particular but not over developed muscle set getting rid of unneccesary phsyical actions or unwanted actions. With this in mind we hope to become an adept. We can acheive far more using our brain and timing and dont have to rely on muscle power.