A serious question to adept martial artists about physical fitness...

[Zombocalypse]

Many people train "push" and "pull". Not too many people train "twist".

Wow...

I believe that the one who invented/discovered that exercise and recommended to others is nothing short of brilliant. I sincerely believe that. I really do. lol

When did that exercise become prevalent in martial arts? Was it an ancient invention?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When did that exercise become prevalent in martial arts? Was it an ancient invention?

The original of this training cannot be traced. It can be over 2000 years old.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Many people train "push" and "pull". Not too many people train "twist".

IMO, if you're training pushing and pulling components of that twist, and doing "live" grappling, a separate exercise for the twist isn't necessary. The functional gains are likely to be a tiny margin.

 

[drop bear]

IMO, if you're training pushing and pulling components of that twist, and doing "live" grappling, a separate exercise for the twist isn't necessary. The functional gains are likely to be a tiny margin.

That is not really true for any other exersise. I mean you would think that you get enough grip training in live grappling.

But aparently not.

I mean I can ask my fitness coach if you want. But I think that if you are twisting in a fight. Train twisting.

 

[punisher73]

The problem is that there are different physiques (the classic "meso, ecto, endo as an example) and differing combinations of muscle fibers between fast/slow twitch. Some people will respond better to certain types of training based on that. So many trainers use a cookie cutter approach for what worked FOR THEM and apply it to everyone else.

Second, most people confuse "strength training" with "bodybuilding" and use an approach meant to cause hypertrophy (bigger muscles as the goal) instead of focusing on just getting stronger.

Third, there is a point of diminishing returns. A martial artist only has so much time in the day and the best way to improve at an activity is to do that activity. Balancing the practice of their art with conditioning and strength training is hard for many people who can't do it full time. This is where the issue becomes really blurred because pro athletes take PED's that change their physique composition into something most "natural" athletes will not be able to accomplish. It allows them to grow/repair muscle faster and also have faster recovery times so they can do more.

So, looking at many "pro trainers", they can do alot of things wrong that still work because they are either working with genetically gifted individuals that respond quickly to almost any training or chemically gifted athletes that will respond quickly to almost any training, or a combo of the two.

Add that into the mix of "martial arts training" and much of what is done is still around because of tradition. Look at boxing even, there is a big argument about "roadwork". Some "traditional" boxing trainers will say that 5-10 miles a day was good for Dempsey (or whoever) so it must be good for my fighter. Other trainers will say that they just didn't know any better due to lack of exercise science and have their athletes doing intervals that mimic timed rounds. If you are a great trainer and produce champions despite your less than optimal training, and the other guy is spot on with the science but can't produce a champion, who are you going to listen to?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is not really true for any other exersise. I mean you would think that you get enough grip training in live grappling.

But aparently not.

I mean I can ask my fitness coach if you want. But I think that if you are twisting in a fight. Train twisting.

My point is that the base muscles are being trained with pushing and pulling components (assuming you do them one-sided). And the coordination for twisting is trained pretty effectively during drills. I'm not sure there's sufficient benefit to adding a specific twisting exercise. As for grip, most standard exercises don't train the grip to a level that will help hold a strong arm that's trying to break free. That does need additional training if you want to use it at a high level. I guess if we're talking the highest levels of training, the marginal gain from twisting exercises might have merit - there's much done at the highest level that only makes sense at that level.

 

[Zombocalypse]

The problem is that there are different physiques (the classic "meso, ecto, endo as an example) and differing combinations of muscle fibers between fast/slow twitch. Some people will respond better to certain types of training based on that. So many trainers use a cookie cutter approach for what worked FOR THEM and apply it to everyone else.

Second, most people confuse "strength training" with "bodybuilding" and use an approach meant to cause hypertrophy (bigger muscles as the goal) instead of focusing on just getting stronger.

Third, there is a point of diminishing returns. A martial artist only has so much time in the day and the best way to improve at an activity is to do that activity. Balancing the practice of their art with conditioning and strength training is hard for many people who can't do it full time. This is where the issue becomes really blurred because pro athletes take PED's that change their physique composition into something most "natural" athletes will not be able to accomplish. It allows them to grow/repair muscle faster and also have faster recovery times so they can do more.

So, looking at many "pro trainers", they can do alot of things wrong that still work because they are either working with genetically gifted individuals that respond quickly to almost any training or chemically gifted athletes that will respond quickly to almost any training, or a combo of the two.

Add that into the mix of "martial arts training" and much of what is done is still around because of tradition. Look at boxing even, there is a big argument about "roadwork". Some "traditional" boxing trainers will say that 5-10 miles a day was good for Dempsey (or whoever) so it must be good for my fighter. Other trainers will say that they just didn't know any better due to lack of exercise science and have their athletes doing intervals that mimic timed rounds. If you are a great trainer and produce champions despite your less than optimal training, and the other guy is spot on with the science but can't produce a champion, who are you going to listen to?

This is a great post.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

IMO, if you're training pushing and pulling components of that twist, and doing "live" grappling, a separate exercise for the twist isn't necessary. The functional gains are likely to be a tiny margin.

The harder that you can twist your opponent in the clockwise direction, the harder that your opponent may resist toward the counter-clockwise direction, the more force that you can borrow if you reverse twisting to the counter-clockwise direction. If you grab on a cow's horn, you will need a lot of twisting force to take that cow down.

The more that you can give, the more that you can take.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you would think that you get enough grip training in live grappling.

Agree! If you want to develop a pair of monster grip, you need to train like a monster. We don't born with grip strength. We also don't develop grip strength through our daily activity.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The harder that you can twist your opponent in the clockwise direction, the harder that your opponent may resist toward the counter-clockwise direction, the more force that you can borrow if you reverse twisting to the counter-clockwise direction. If you grab on a cow's horn, you will need a lot of twisting force to take that cow down.

The more that you can give, the more that you can take.

Agreed. I just think the returns on this (if the components are already being strengthened) are marginal.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Agreed. I just think the returns on this (if the components are already being strengthened) are marginal.

The reward will be great. In jacket wrestling, when you grab on your opponent, if your opponent cannot break your grips. None of his throw will work on you. You can then take your time to attack whenever you may like to.

 

[JR 137]

Agree! If you want to develop a pair of monster grip, you need to train like a monster. We don't born with grip strength. We also don't develop grip strength through our daily activity.

Depends on your daily activity. My father has been a mechanic going on 50 years. His hands look like he’s wearing boxing gloves, and his forearms are pretty close to the size of his biceps.

Even though chicks don’t like them, I wish I had his hands. Those things could punch through anything.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Even though chicks don’t like them, I wish I had his hands. Those things could punch through anything.

Huh? I thought women like muscles. Muscles in men is sexy. lol. Just take a look at Mike "The Situation" Sorrentino. Women love him. He's the epitome of male sexiness.

https://i1.wp.com/starcasm.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/TheSituation.jpg

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The reward will be great. In jacket wrestling, when you grab on your opponent, if your opponent cannot break your grips. None of his throw will work on you. You can then take your time to attack whenever you may like to.

That’s the value of being strong. I don’t dispute that. I’m just not sure a specific twisting exercise is necessary to that. It can be very helpful if you’re putting together a regimen that it fills gaps in. It has less benefit if the same muscles are already being developed with other strength exercises.

 

[Zombocalypse]

That’s the value of being strong. I don’t dispute that. I’m just not sure a specific twisting exercise is necessary to that. It can be very helpful if you’re putting together a regimen that it fills gaps in. It has less benefit if the same muscles are already being developed with other strength exercises.

I couldn't agree more!

Plus, a well-designed strength training program will get your entire body strong. One thing that a lot of people forget is that the body is one piece. It is actually virtually impossible to truly isolate a muscle. All exercises and all movements require the integration of the whole body. For example, even though chin-ups primarily train the lats, you won't be able to do chin-ups if you have injured biceps. And you won't be able to do a barbell curl with a weight that you can't deadlift using your back and core.

 

[New Instructor]

That's bad logic. Saying that X is good because Badass Joe does it is like saying you'll achieve Arnold Schwarzenegger's (prime) physique by doing Arnold Schwarzenegger's exact training routine.

It doesn't work that way.

There are exceptions to the rules. Golovkin is one of these exceptions.

A vast majority of boxers would benefit more from direct shoulder work bodybuilding style than swinging light dumbbells in the air. The carryover is strong enough that despite the lack of specificity in training, it will still be greatly beneficial.

Shadow boxing with light weights is a way for boxers to develop fast twitch muscles and increase their punching speed.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Shadow boxing with light weights is a way for boxers to develop fast twitch muscles and increase their punching speed.

You develop fast twitch muscles best through lifting weights. Upper-body plyometrics is infinitely better than shadow boxing.

 

[MA_Student]

Huh? I thought women like muscles. Muscles in men is sexy. lol. Just take a look at Mike "The Situation" Sorrentino. Women love him. He's the epitome of male sexiness.

https://i1.wp.com/starcasm.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/TheSituation.jpg

Lol no women liked his money

 

[punisher73]

Shadow boxing with light weights is a way for boxers to develop fast twitch muscles and increase their punching speed.

Lots of disagreement with this..
punching with light weights anyone here do it? (Floyd Mayweather does it)

Again reading the pros and cons, it is all anecdotal evidence and appeal to champs who do it. If you look for any science behind it, you don't see that. That thread pretty much sums up my previous post in regards to training practices in combat sports/arts

 

[Zombocalypse]

Lol no women liked his money

lol. I know. I was just goofing around.

Speaking of Sorrentino, have you seen his roast video?? It was terrible and he wasn't even the one being roasted.