A serious question to adept martial artists about physical fitness...

[Zombocalypse]

the dead lift is mostly pushing with you legs, the pulling element is comparatively small,
bar bell lifter in general seems to focus more on push than pull, which is why a good number of them have that forward twist of their upper body

This is a difficult discussion to take on...

It depends on what deadlift you are referring to. Olympic weightlifters deadlift differently than powerlifters. Olympic weightlifters utilize their legs more in the deadlift compared to powerlifters, and powerlifters deadlift with minimal leg bend (at the starting position.). The deadlift is a pulling movement. It is a pulling movement because it utilizes your back muscles to a great extent. Your back muscles are pulling muscles. Therefore, the deadlift is a pulling movement. Yes, the quadriceps are taxed with the deadlift, but it's extremely minimal.

I'll assume you're referring to the "Olympic" deadlift than the powerlifting deadlift. Even then, the deadlift is still a pulling muscle because the primary muscles worked are the back.

As far as lifters being push-dominant more than pull-dominant, I say ********. Sorry for the bluntness, but I'm trying to make a point here.

The three main barbell sports are bodybuilding, powerlifting, and weightlifting. Pick one of them, and I'll explain to you exactly how wrong you are with your belief that lifters are push dominant.

This is ignorance at its finest. I'm saying that not to be a troll, but to make it clear to you that you obviously know nothing about lifting weights. I'm sorry. I really am. And most importantly, I'm sorry for speaking truth.

 

[Zombocalypse]

I think he was differentiating MA skill from the strength that supports it. They overlap, for sure, but aren't entirely the same thing.

I definitely agree. Thanks.

 

[jobo]

This is a difficult discussion to take on...

It depends on what deadlift you are referring to. Olympic weightlifters deadlift differently than powerlifters. Olympic weightlifters utilize their legs more in the deadlift compared to powerlifters, and powerlifters deadlift with minimal leg bend (at the starting position.). The deadlift is a pulling movement. It is a pulling movement because it utilizes your back muscles to a great extent. Your back muscles are pulling muscles. Therefore, the deadlift is a pulling movement. Yes, the quadriceps are taxed with the deadlift, but it's extremely minimal.

I'll assume you're referring to the "Olympic" deadlift than the powerlifting deadlift. Even then, the deadlift is still a pulling muscle because the primary muscles worked are the back.

As far as lifters being push-dominant more than pull-dominant, I say ********. Sorry for the bluntness, but I'm trying to make a point here.

The three main barbell sports are bodybuilding, powerlifting, and weightlifting. Pick one of them, and I'll explain to you exactly how wrong you are with your belief that lifters are push dominant.

This is ignorance at its finest. I'm saying that not to be a troll, but to make it clear to you that you obviously know nothing about lifting weights. I'm sorry. I really am. And most importantly, I'm sorry for speaking truth.

body building isn't sport , and TH. Highest % of people who lift weight arnt doing as a sport either. they are try to get stronger for real sports. lots of these people lift badly lots and lots of them neglect pulling exercises , and building up your lower back does nothing to adjust out of balance,shoulder and upper back muscles from to much pushing and not enough pulling

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm pretty sure I would. My shoulders aren't nearly stable enough for that. It'd be something to work toward...

It's not the shoulder. It's the spine. This is what so called "core strength (or functional strength)". Try not to use more than 60 lb on your double heads. Also make sure you have belt on your waist.

 

[Zombocalypse]

There's definitely a pulling element, specifically in things like the rows. But it's not a pulling element for the lower body, and a different stress on the core than the pulls KFW is referring to. Cable machines provide a good option for these pulls in most gyms (and can stand in for both dumbbells and barbells in some exercises).

I'm so confused. I'm having a hard time deciphering what you're trying to tell me.

Lower-body pulling-movements are a little tricky. The reason why lifters never label lower-body exercises as either a pulling movement or a pushing movement is because a lot of the muscles in the lower-body are both.

Let's take a look at the squat, for example. It's arguably a pushing movement. But let's think deeper... The primary muscles worked in the squat are: Quadriceps, hamstrings, glutes and lower back. How can you label the squat as a pushing movement if three of those aforementioned muscles (hams, glutes, and back) are actually PULLING muscles?

Pulling, technically-speaking, is about bringing an object closer to your body. Pushing is the opposite (pushing AWAY from you). In the squat, what exactly are you pulling to yourself? ... Nothing. But in the squat, what exactly are you pushing away from you? The floor? But how can you push something away from you if it won't move? The squat doesn't move the floor away from you. You move YOUR BODY away from the floor, which is extremely difficult to classify as either pulling or pushing.

One of the most popular body-part splits in bodybuilding is the Push-Pull-Legs routine. Day 1, you workout your pushing muscles. Day 2, you workout your pulling muscles. Day 3, you work your legs. (Some people recommend an M/W/F schedule while others recommend a 6-day-week-schedule where you cycle through Push, Pull, and Legs twice.) Did you notice anything about the program? The leg-day is separate from either the push day and the pull day. That's because legs neither push or pull or EITHER push or pull. It's extremely difficult and confusing to classify what it is exactly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's not the shoulder. It's the spine. This is what so called "core strength (or functional strength)". Try not to use more than 60 lb on your double heads. Also make sure you have belt on your waist.

In my case, it is the shoulders. I probably can't do 20 lbs. that way right now. I lost a lot of muscle while I was injured.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm so confused. I'm having a hard time deciphering what you're trying to tell me.

Lower-body pulling-movements are a little tricky. The reason why lifters never label lower-body exercises as either a pulling movement or a pushing movement is because a lot of the muscles in the lower-body are both.

Let's take a look at the squat, for example. It's arguably a pushing movement. But let's think deeper... The primary muscles worked in the squat are: Quadriceps, hamstrings, glutes and lower back. How can you label the squat as a pushing movement if three of those aforementioned muscles (hams, glutes, and back) are actually PULLING muscles?

Pulling, technically-speaking, is about bringing an object closer to your body. Pushing is the opposite (pushing AWAY from you). In the squat, what exactly are you pulling to yourself? ... Nothing. But in the squat, what exactly are you pushing away from you? The floor? But how can you push something away from you if it won't move? The squat doesn't move the floor away from you. You move YOUR BODY away from the floor, which is extremely difficult to classify as either pulling or pushing.

One of the most popular body-part splits in bodybuilding is the Push-Pull-Legs routine. Day 1, you workout your pushing muscles. Day 2, you workout your pulling muscles. Day 3, you work your legs. (Some people recommend an M/W/F schedule while others recommend a 6-day-week-schedule where you cycle through Push, Pull, and Legs twice.) Did you notice anything about the program? The leg-day is separate from either the push day and the pull day. That's because legs neither push or pull or EITHER push or pull. It's extremely difficult and confusing to classify what it is exactly.

You're using the technical differentiation of push-pull muscles. I'm speaking from a functional perspective. When we lift, we push up with our legs. With pulling like the pulley/cable exercises, the legs are forced to (along with the core) to work laterally. It's a different stress, and more directly applicable to most martial arts movements. There's definitely value in lifting, but there are functional areas that cannot be targeted with gravity alone.

 

[Zombocalypse]

You're using the technical differentiation of push-pull muscles. I'm speaking from a functional perspective. When we lift, we push up with our legs. With pulling like the pulley/cable exercises, the legs are forced to (along with the core) to work laterally. It's a different stress, and more directly applicable to most martial arts movements. There's definitely value in lifting, but there are functional areas that cannot be targeted with gravity alone.

I think this was well said.

Despite my background of pure powerlifting, I wouldn't go against training someone with these "functional exercises" you're referring to. That's of course IF I was training someone. I'm not. I'm just saying IF.

Edit: By the way, have you seen how some Pehlwani wrestlers train?? I can show you a youtube video of them doing their own version of functional training.

 

[jobo]

I'm so confused. I'm having a hard time deciphering what you're trying to tell me.

Lower-body pulling-movements are a little tricky. The reason why lifters never label lower-body exercises as either a pulling movement or a pushing movement is because a lot of the muscles in the lower-body are both.

Let's take a look at the squat, for example. It's arguably a pushing movement. But let's think deeper... The primary muscles worked in the squat are: Quadriceps, hamstrings, glutes and lower back. How can you label the squat as a pushing movement if three of those aforementioned muscles (hams, glutes, and back) are actually PULLING muscles?

Pulling, technically-speaking, is about bringing an object closer to your body. Pushing is the opposite (pushing AWAY from you). In the squat, what exactly are you pulling to yourself? ... Nothing. But in the squat, what exactly are you pushing away from you? The floor? But how can you push something away from you if it won't move? The squat doesn't move the floor away from you. You move YOUR BODY away from the floor, which is extremely difficult to classify as either pulling or pushing.

One of the most popular body-part splits in bodybuilding is the Push-Pull-Legs routine. Day 1, you workout your pushing muscles. Day 2, you workout your pulling muscles. Day 3, you work your legs. (Some people recommend an M/W/F schedule while others recommend a 6-day-week-schedule where you cycle through Push, Pull, and Legs twice.) Did you notice anything about the program? The leg-day is separate from either the push day and the pull day. That's because legs neither push or pull or EITHER push or pull. It's extremely difficult and confusing to classify what it is exactly.

pushing your body away from the floor is still PUSHING,

 

[Zombocalypse]

pushing your body away from the floor is still PUSHING,

You may be right. It's complicated...

 

[Finlay]

Hello

As a recreational lifter I will add another 2 cents

The squat and the deadlift both activate the posterior chain. Which could be classified as pulling muscle since they are on your back.

However I believe that the deadlift is classified as a 'hinge' motion rather than a pull.

For upper body pull, nothing beats pull ups


Which segways neatly into body weight (bw) exercises.

It is often said that bw is.more effective that barbell training. There is some truth in that but again there is a lot of caveats

Take push up vs bench press for example
(Simplified)

Logistically
Push up can be done anywhere, push up is safer, and need less equipment

Effectiveness
There are many variations of the push up that create a lot of tension in the body. Working the CNS more and getting strong without nessesarily building a lot of muscle.

However all these variations take time to learn. You have to really want to make the most out of a simple exercise.

With the barbell, you learn the movement, in this case bench press, and then slowly add weight to the bar. The movement is refined continually (much like developing a punch or a kick) but essentially remains the same.

I am yet to see a bw exercise that matches deadlift

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think this was well said.

Despite my background of pure powerlifting, I wouldn't go against training someone with these "functional exercises" you're referring to. That's of course IF I was training someone. I'm not. I'm just saying IF.

Edit: By the way, have you seen how some Pehlwani wrestlers train?? I can show you a youtube video of them doing their own version of functional training.

That'd be an interesting video - post it, please.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Hello

As a recreational lifter I will add another 2 cents

The squat and the deadlift both activate the posterior chain. Which could be classified as pulling muscle since they are on your back.

However I believe that the deadlift is classified as a 'hinge' motion rather than a pull.

For upper body pull, nothing beats pull ups


Which segways neatly into body weight (bw) exercises.

It is often said that bw is.more effective that barbell training. There is some truth in that but again there is a lot of caveats

Take push up vs bench press for example
(Simplified)

Logistically
Push up can be done anywhere, push up is safer, and need less equipment

Effectiveness
There are many variations of the push up that create a lot of tension in the body. Working the CNS more and getting strong without nessesarily building a lot of muscle.

However all these variations take time to learn. You have to really want to make the most out of a simple exercise.

With the barbell, you learn the movement, in this case bench press, and then slowly add weight to the bar. The movement is refined continually (much like developing a punch or a kick) but essentially remains the same.

I am yet to see a bw exercise that matches deadlift

I agree with a lot of what you just said.

I don't agree with your comment about the CNS. Are you saying that push-ups are more effective in training the CNS more than bench presses? Is that it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree with a lot of what you just said.

I don't agree with your comment about the CNS. Are you saying that push-ups are more effective in training the CNS more than bench presses? Is that it?

I think his comment was that the push-up range of exercises (all the variations) requires more CNS development than the bench press. If you only did one variation of push-up and one of bench press, you'd have similar CNS requirements. If you only did one variation of push-up and three of bench press (standard, wide, narrow), you'd have more CNS requirements for bench press. But there are many more variations of push-up available (dive bomber, Spiderman, superstar, judo, triangle, wide, narrow, fists, clapping, one-hand, one-foot, etc.).

 

[Zombocalypse]

That'd be an interesting video - post it, please.

 

[Finlay]

No my point was that you can change the push up to increase the amount you work the CNS (more than basic push up, not more than heavy bench press)

Push up
Strict slow push up
One hand negative push up
One hand push up
One hand one foot push up

Would be one example of a progression. However like I said in the post these take time to learn. I also believe there is a limit that is reached after which you need to add external weight. If being that strong is your goal

 

[Zombocalypse]

That'd be an interesting video - post it, please.

By the way, on the video I posted, go to 8:05. You'll see some good stuff there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That first one would be similar to the single-head KFW has posted here before from TCMA training.

 

[JR 137]

You may be right. It's complicated...

Pushing is going away from your body. Pulling is going towards it. Not too complicated.

Some exercises do both, which muddies the water a bit though.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Many people train "push" and "pull". Not too many people train "twist".