A Reason Why Rank Might Be Important

[TSDTexan]

If they made rank important. Then you wouldn't get that as much.

Making dough is their "Do"... but if you do put your trust in their fufu, when comes a real fight... you will fight like doo doo.

 

[JR 137]

Most Shotokan schools I have seen are like this. You always address Sensei as "Sensei" no matter where you are. "Sensei" is always the authority, no matter where you are or what you are doing. In class, Sensei barks orders:

Sensei: Line up!
Class: Hai Sensei!
Sensei: Step down in front stance, left side forward!
Class: Hai Sensei!
Sensei: Step forward, lunge punch, to my count!
Class: Hai Sensei!
Sensei: Ichi!
Sensei: Ni!
...

Some people look at this as barking orders. Others don’t.

We do pretty similar in my dojo/organization. It isn’t barking orders. I look at it the same way a coach would have his/her team line up and go through a drill or skills practice. Replace a start/stop whistle with a count.

People call their coach “coach” off the field. Is sensei much different? Honestly, if I saw my teacher or any of the other instructors outside the dojo, it would be weird calling them their names. Calling my teacher Don instead of Shuseki Shihan wouldn’t cross my mind. It would be like a name change to me. Furthermore, our organization has the policy that you address people by their title, in and out of the dojo, unless they’ve asked you specifically not to. Some are on a power trip with it, 99% aren’t. Only one person in the entire organization introduced themself to me by a title rather than their name. Why? I was greeting a bunch of people from the organization visiting our dojo from out of town. After the 4th person I asked if they had a title, the fifth person in a row I greeted said “Sensei Joe” while obviously feeling a bit silly, but doing it solely to avoid the 2 part introduction.

It’s all a point of view. What some consider barking orders, I consider the same thing as when I played sports. What some view as a power trip, I view as a different way of showing respect. I don’t view a bow as anything fundamentally different than a handshake. I don’t view “sensei” as anything different than “coach.”

It must be said that we don’t say “master” in English. We say it in Japanese. I’d feel quite funny addressing anyone as master. Somehow shihan doesn’t bother me one bit. Odd and doesn’t make sense, but it is what it is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If they made rank important. Then you wouldn't get that as much.

Do you mean in the way it matters within BJJ, for instance? Not as a "you gotta have it" important. but an "if you wear it, you better be up to it" important?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Some people look at this as barking orders. Others don’t.

We do pretty similar in my dojo/organization. It isn’t barking orders. I look at it the same way a coach would have his/her team line up and go through a drill or skills practice. Replace a start/stop whistle with a count.

People call their coach “coach” off the field. Is sensei much different? Honestly, if I saw my teacher or any of the other instructors outside the dojo, it would be weird calling them their names. Calling my teacher Don instead of Shuseki Shihan wouldn’t cross my mind. It would be like a name change to me. Furthermore, our organization has the policy that you address people by their title, in and out of the dojo, unless they’ve asked you specifically not to. Some are on a power trip with it, 99% aren’t. Only one person in the entire organization introduced themself to me by a title rather than their name. Why? I was greeting a bunch of people from the organization visiting our dojo from out of town. After the 4th person I asked if they had a title, the fifth person in a row I greeted said “Sensei Joe” while obviously feeling a bit silly, but doing it solely to avoid the 2 part introduction.

It’s all a point of view. What some consider barking orders, I consider the same thing as when I played sports. What some view as a power trip, I view as a different way of showing respect. I don’t view a bow as anything fundamentally different than a handshake. I don’t view “sensei” as anything different than “coach.”

It must be said that we don’t say “master” in English. We say it in Japanese. I’d feel quite funny addressing anyone as master. Somehow shihan doesn’t bother me one bit. Odd and doesn’t make sense, but it is what it is.

I'll even go a step further. I don't like being called "Mr. Seymour", even by vendors and service industry staff. I'm just "Gerry". But in the dojo, it feels weird to be "Gerry". I'm just really used to calling and being called by last names and honorifics (sensei and shihan). I use first names with folks below brown belt, because that's what we always did (except my first NGA instructor, who always used last names back then).

Now, I tell all my students I'm just "Gerry" outside the school. It doesn't always work. It didn't with me, from my instructor, either.

 

[Martial D]

Yeah, but they're the minority by far, in my experience.

I suppose that depends on where you set your bar.

 

[Martial D]

If they made rank important. Then you wouldn't get that as much.

Ya, but who's 'they'? I mean, in TMA schools rank seems to be pretty important across the board. In many cases this is because there is no measuring stick taken to practical ability. If you have a natural pecking order what's the point of setting up an artificial one based on how well you can do solo choreography or break particle board and paving stones or (insert criteria that is anything but actually testing your skill against a resisting human being..ie the only criteria that actually matters)

 

[Jaeimseu]

Some people look at this as barking orders. Others don’t.

We do pretty similar in my dojo/organization. It isn’t barking orders. I look at it the same way a coach would have his/her team line up and go through a drill or skills practice. Replace a start/stop whistle with a count.

People call their coach “coach” off the field. Is sensei much different? Honestly, if I saw my teacher or any of the other instructors outside the dojo, it would be weird calling them their names. Calling my teacher Don instead of Shuseki Shihan wouldn’t cross my mind. It would be like a name change to me. Furthermore, our organization has the policy that you address people by their title, in and out of the dojo, unless they’ve asked you specifically not to. Some are on a power trip with it, 99% aren’t. Only one person in the entire organization introduced themself to me by a title rather than their name. Why? I was greeting a bunch of people from the organization visiting our dojo from out of town. After the 4th person I asked if they had a title, the fifth person in a row I greeted said “Sensei Joe” while obviously feeling a bit silly, but doing it solely to avoid the 2 part introduction.

It’s all a point of view. What some consider barking orders, I consider the same thing as when I played sports. What some view as a power trip, I view as a different way of showing respect. I don’t view a bow as anything fundamentally different than a handshake. I don’t view “sensei” as anything different than “coach.”

It must be said that we don’t say “master” in English. We say it in Japanese. I’d feel quite funny addressing anyone as master. Somehow shihan doesn’t bother me one bit. Odd and doesn’t make sense, but it is what it is.

As an athletics coach as well as an MA instructor, I agree that it’s very similar. In most cases, a hierarchy is established, even if it’s done organically. In sports it might be A team or B team, 1st string or 2nd string.

I used to be weirded out by being called master, as well. But if it’s the commonly accepted term, why should it feel weird? Especially since the term master, at least in tkd, doesn’t really mean anything other than teacher.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ya, but who's 'they'? I mean, in TMA schools rank seems to be pretty important across the board. In many cases this is because there is no measuring stick taken to practical ability. If you have a natural pecking order what's the point of setting up an artificial one based on how well you can do solo choreography or break particle board and paving stones or (insert criteria that is anything but actually testing your skill against a resisting human being..ie the only criteria that actually matters)

You're imposing your priorities on others, as the priorities. There are reasons people value those things. There's no reason a rank has to be separate from what you're talking about (it basically isn't in BJJ), nor any reason why it has to be what you're talking about.

 

[TSDTexan]

Ya, but who's 'they'? I mean, in TMA schools rank seems to be pretty important across the board. In many cases this is because there is no measuring stick taken to practical ability. If you have a natural pecking order what's the point of setting up an artificial one based on how well you can do solo choreography or break particle board and paving stones or (insert criteria that is anything but actually testing your skill against a resisting human being..ie the only criteria that actually matters)

that is a very broad brushstroke your painting with.
Judo is a tma. it requires testing your skill against a resistant opponent. So does Gongkwon Yusul... which is a tma. and there are many others.

Depending on the org or federation... TKD has mandatory sparring. As does Kyokushin Karate.... another TMA. Also lets not forget Muy Boran TMA, Muy Thai TMA.

 

[Martial D]

that is a very broad brushstroke your painting with.
Judo is a tma. it requires testing your skill against a resistant opponent. So does Gongkwon Yusul... which is a tma. and there are many others.

Depending on the org or federation... TKD has mandatory sparring. As does Kyokushin Karate.... another TMA. Also lets not forget Muy Boran TMA, Muy Thai TMA.

That's why I wrote 'in many cases' and not 'in all cases'

 

[Martial D]

You're imposing your priorities on others, as the priorities. There are reasons people value those things. There's no reason a rank has to be separate from what you're talking about (it basically isn't in BJJ), nor any reason why it has to be what you're talking about.

Imposing my priorities on others? That a martial art should be functional?

What happened to you man, you used to be much more rational.

 

[Bruce7]

Its been covered on here before that some people don't care about earning rank in the martial arts, if they train in a style that uses a ranking system, and I know that rank isn't everything but here is a reason why it might be important in some situations. Sometimes when you're discussing martial arts with somebody they might ask you at some point what your rank is, where you got it, ect. and if you're not at a high enough rank they might not take you seriously. Now when I talk about a "high enough rank" that's very subjective of course but I would say that if you've at least made first dan in a style you're going to be taken more seriously than if you haven't. Also, it would depend on where you earned your first dan rank and the standards you had to meet to get it. There are some schools where I wouldn't take a person seriously even if they got third or fourth dan there because they've got such low standards, but if its a good school with a good solid reputation than I would take a person who earned first dan there as I believe most in the martial arts community would. So that is just one reason why rank might be important to some people.

I agree with what you are saying.
But I never ask someone what their belt is. I ask how many years have you train and in what style, and probably who was your teacher.
The only black belt I ever want was from Jack Hwang. Having said that I enjoy my Kung Fu and Aikido system best, because their was only black belts and white belts. We judge each other by skill and knowledge. When I was young going into a taekwodo school with a white belt and showing up the black belts caused problems. That is why I did not like the belt system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Imposing my priorities on others? That a martial art should be functional?

What happened to you man, you used to be much more rational.

That it has to be about fighting ability. Not everyone is actually seeking that. Some folks are just looking for fun and exercise, or a sport, and it won't really matter to them whether what they are doing would be useful for actual fighting or not. If someone is looking for those things, and they get those things, they're doing fine regardless of how you and I might react to that same training.

EDIT for clarification: It's not about whether it's functional or not...but about what it's functional for.

 

[Martial D]

That it has to be about fighting ability. Not everyone is actually seeking that. Some folks are just looking for fun and exercise, or a sport, and it won't really matter to them whether what they are doing would be useful for actual fighting or not. If someone is looking for those things, and they get those things, they're doing fine regardless of how you and I might react to that same training.

EDIT for clarification: It's not about whether it's functional or not...but about what it's functional for.

Ya, I used to think like that. These days it just sounds like excuse making to me. It's always the same ones that say it's for fun and exercise one moment that are talking 'too deadly for the cage' the next.

Not all of course, but enough.

To me it's no different than keeping a car around that doesn't run because you enjoy waxing the thing.

Sure, why not, but that's not what a car was meant for.

 

[drop bear]

That it has to be about fighting ability. Not everyone is actually seeking that. Some folks are just looking for fun and exercise, or a sport, and it won't really matter to them whether what they are doing would be useful for actual fighting or not. If someone is looking for those things, and they get those things, they're doing fine regardless of how you and I might react to that same training.

EDIT for clarification: It's not about whether it's functional or not...but about what it's functional for.

Yeah tentatively. The issue is that if there is a constant philosophical push to support this idea of no standards other than happiness.

Then you are placing yourself in with the worst examples.

And then when say people are quite simply doing any old thing you don't have any position to either condemn them or separate yourself.

Ok. More condensed. The way you defend your brand. Destroys your brand.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Except Mrs Dog, of course. I'm still trying to convince her that she needs to call me Master at home, and at work.

Something tells me you'll end up in the dirty dog house...

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Some people look at this as barking orders. Others don’t.

We do pretty similar in my dojo/organization. It isn’t barking orders. I look at it the same way a coach would have his/her team line up and go through a drill or skills practice. Replace a start/stop whistle with a count.

People call their coach “coach” off the field. Is sensei much different? Honestly, if I saw my teacher or any of the other instructors outside the dojo, it would be weird calling them their names. Calling my teacher Don instead of Shuseki Shihan wouldn’t cross my mind. It would be like a name change to me. Furthermore, our organization has the policy that you address people by their title, in and out of the dojo, unless they’ve asked you specifically not to. Some are on a power trip with it, 99% aren’t. Only one person in the entire organization introduced themself to me by a title rather than their name. Why? I was greeting a bunch of people from the organization visiting our dojo from out of town. After the 4th person I asked if they had a title, the fifth person in a row I greeted said “Sensei Joe” while obviously feeling a bit silly, but doing it solely to avoid the 2 part introduction.

It’s all a point of view. What some consider barking orders, I consider the same thing as when I played sports. What some view as a power trip, I view as a different way of showing respect. I don’t view a bow as anything fundamentally different than a handshake. I don’t view “sensei” as anything different than “coach.”

It must be said that we don’t say “master” in English. We say it in Japanese. I’d feel quite funny addressing anyone as master. Somehow shihan doesn’t bother me one bit. Odd and doesn’t make sense, but it is what it is.

Something about this reminded me: A coach doesn't have to be more knowledgeable than you for you to consider them your coach. I know a lot about physical fitness, and what's effective for me in that regard. I could improve myself just as well without a physical trainer as I could with one (right now I'm doing so with @Tony Dismukes 's help). But if I required someone for that motivation, I would treat them with respect...they would be helping me even if I intellectually knew exactly what I needed. The second they asked for respect though, they would lose it, no matter how much physical training education they had. I feel like the same concept would apply for me with martial arts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ya, I used to think like that. These days it just sounds like excuse making to me. It's always the same ones that say it's for fun and exercise one moment that are talking 'too deadly for the cage' the next.

Not all of course, but enough.

To me it's no different than keeping a car around that doesn't run because you enjoy waxing the thing.

Sure, why not, but that's not what a car was meant for.

I can't agree that it's the same people saying "only exercise" and "too deadly". The latter is usually from folks whose intent is self-defense. (And they are far overstating the issue, obviously.)

We have members here on MT who have said more than once they just do it for the fun, and some just for the competition, with no concern for whether it is more useful for self-defense than any other form of exercise. I don't have a problem with that (though I used to, so you and I are apparently balancing the universe).

To take the car analogy, to me it's more like someone saying a car simply doesn't have enough power, and the owner saying, "Well, I never really push it very hard, anyway. It gets me where I want and is comfortable. That's all that really matters to me." There's no reason to own Dirty Dog's 'Vette with 4.16E5 horsepower if you're only ever going to take lazy drives at the posted speed limit unless you just really love the car. There are cars that are much more comfortable for that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah tentatively. The issue is that if there is a constant philosophical push to support this idea of no standards other than happiness.

Then you are placing yourself in with the worst examples.

And then when say people are quite simply doing any old thing you don't have any position to either condemn them or separate yourself.

Ok. More condensed. The way you defend your brand. Destroys your brand.

For those who don't actually care about fighting ability, I don't think it does destroy their brand. If someone's intention is to train specifically for WT(F) competition, because they think it looks like a bunch of fun and they like the competitive element, then why should they train somewhere that's going to try to teach them to do something different? If someone just wants to learn to do floor gymnastics, still ring is a distraction from what they want to do.

So, yeah, in some cases it's really only about what the participants want from it. It used to drive me nuts (and still makes me itch) to see what I consider bad martial arts. But if the people aren't being told it's effective for some other purpose and aren't being taught things that will harm their body (bad technique that exposes joints to RSI, for instance), then really, why should I get any say in the matter?

 

[Dirty Dog]

To me it's no different than keeping a car around that doesn't run because you enjoy waxing the thing.

Sure, why not, but that's not what a car was meant for.

There are plenty of car collectors who would vehemently disagree with you.