A Reason Why Rank Might Be Important

[Dirty Dog]

The belt hierarchy is asian.... originating at the Kodokan.

in this western alternative.
there is no kyu/dan grade
there is no Mudansha
there is no Yudansha
there is no Kodansha

Sure there is, you've just changed the names. The function remains exactly the same.

 

[wab25]

Actually this seems to be solely based on time-in-grade, from what the post suggests.

As they progress (showing acquisition and mastery) through the curriculum, the number changes.

Either way, he was objecting to the belt system... where time training and mastery of curriculum established a hierarchy, denoted by belt color. He replaced the belt color with a patch number, but established the same hierarchy... now denoted by number on a patch.

 

[TSDTexan]

Sure there is, you've just changed the names. The function remains exactly the same.

nah. 5th dan generally comes with the term master.

there are no "masters" per se. or gms. etc. every one is a student. in this model.

 

[Dirty Dog]

nah. 5th dan generally comes with the term master.

there are no "masters" per se. or gms. etc. every one is a student. in this model.

As is true of the traditional belt system. Seriously, all you're doing is changing the names.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've openly stated that the only reason I promote was so I could make Mrs Dog call me Master.

Best reason I can think of. Too bad we don't use that as a title or honorific.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Best reason I can think of. Too bad we don't use that as a title or honorific.

I didn't say it worked, did I?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes. a number.
0 beginning of semesters 1 and 2
1 completed 1 and 2, beginning 3 and 4
2 completed 3 and 4, beginning 4 and 5
and so on.

semester = approx 4.5 months @ 3x (1 hour per week) = 54 hours of curriculum... with about 15 to 20 percent redundancy for reinforcement.

A grade 2 should be able to instruct a grade 0.
ideally... anyone who is two grades higher should be able to teach what is two grades below.

Now, you may have an odd duck without the soft skills to be able to teach. but its not that hard to say
Do what you see me do. I will go very slowly.

That sounds like a pretty similar system to most belt ranking I've seen, other than the recognition of being able to teach two levels below (which I rather like). How does it differ dramatically in your view?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The belt hierarchy is asian.... originating at the Kodokan. it has a definite class system.
with it comes a preloaded system of social hierarchy that is partly the sempai and cohai thing. and lining up by class rank.

in this western alternative.
there is no kyu/dan grade
there is no Mudansha
there is no Yudansha
there is no Kodansha

it is curriculum taught by semester units.

Okay, so if a school uses belt color, but no Japanese terms, and doesn't line up in rank order, what's different? I'm genuinely curious about how you see this, so please don't take this as an attack.

 

[Martial D]

Its been covered on here before that some people don't care about earning rank in the martial arts, if they train in a style that uses a ranking system, and I know that rank isn't everything but here is a reason why it might be important in some situations. Sometimes when you're discussing martial arts with somebody they might ask you at some point what your rank is, where you got it, ect. and if you're not at a high enough rank they might not take you seriously. Now when I talk about a "high enough rank" that's very subjective of course but I would say that if you've at least made first dan in a style you're going to be taken more seriously than if you haven't. Also, it would depend on where you earned your first dan rank and the standards you had to meet to get it. There are some schools where I wouldn't take a person seriously even if they got third or fourth dan there because they've got such low standards, but if its a good school with a good solid reputation than I would take a person who earned first dan there as I believe most in the martial arts community would. So that is just one reason why rank might be important to some people.

That whole concept seems a bit..disconnected...to me.

When I gain respect for someone's martial arts skill it's generally something like..

-that guy is FOLDING the bag with his right hook, and look how fast it is!

-Man, my ribs are bruised from holding the kick pad for this guy, those are some devastating kicks!

-buddy moves like a squirrel, I simply can not take him down!

Etc.

What color their wardrobe is never factors in.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

nah. 5th dan generally comes with the term master.

there are no "masters" per se. or gms. etc. every one is a student. in this model.

That's true in some systems, but not in all.

I use belt color ranks, but no dan/kyu (just don't see a use for the term "kyu", and only have one rank that could be "dan"). I made some of my changes for the same reason - I just don't think the color of a belt has much to do with the issues I saw.

 

[skribs]

The belt hierarchy is asian.... originating at the Kodokan. it has a definite class system.
with it comes a preloaded system of social hierarchy that is partly the sempai and cohai thing. and lining up by class rank.

in this western alternative.
there is no kyu/dan grade
there is no Mudansha
there is no Yudansha
there is no Kodansha

it is curriculum taught by semester units.

How does someone move from Grade 1 to Grade 2? Is it purely time in grade, is it a test, is it a verification in-class that they're ready to move on?

My Taekwondo school has 12 keub ranks, and depending on how you want to look at it, so far we either have 3 dan ranks (except my Master who's a few dan ranks above me), or we have 8 dan+gup ranks (because there's intermediate levels between degrees).So let's say 20 ranks.

Now, we don't have "kyu". We don't have "Mudansha". Because this is a Korean school. But what's to separate me being "Rank 20" and me being "3rd dan"? Names and groups.

The differences between our two systems are the names, and the specific rules applied to each. In yours:

• You rank up at the end of a semester
• You can teach 2 ranks below

In ours:

• You rank up if you take and pass our bi-monthly tests
• You can assist starting at 1st keub, or start teaching at 1st dan

It's the implementation that's different, but both are a rank system.

 

[skribs]

That's true in some systems, but not in all.

I use belt color ranks, but no dan/kyu (just don't see a use for the term "kyu", and only have one rank that could be "dan"). I made some of my changes for the same reason - I just don't think the color of a belt has much to do with the issues I saw.

But you do have "kyu" ranks! (Just count backward from dan rank).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But you do have "kyu" ranks! (Just count backward from dan rank).

Correct. My point was that the only difference is I don't use the terms. There's no "shodan" - just "black belt". As you point out in your previous post, the difference is just terminology.

 

[skribs]

That whole concept seems a bit..disconnected...to me.

When I gain respect for someone's martial arts skill it's generally something like..

-that guy is FOLDING the bag with his right hook, and look how fast it is!

-Man, my ribs are bruised from holding the kick pad for this guy, those are some devastating kicks!

-buddy moves like a squirrel, I simply can not take him down!

Etc.

What color their wardrobe is never factors in.

So how does someone impress you on the forums?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So how does someone impress you on the forums?

Post count. I'm sure that's it. I'm VERY impressive.

 

[skribs]

Post count. I'm sure that's it. I'm VERY impressive.

I was going to try and throw out a different metric but you've got me beat on every metric I was going to suggest.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That whole concept seems a bit..disconnected...to me.

When I gain respect for someone's martial arts skill it's generally something like..

-that guy is FOLDING the bag with his right hook, and look how fast it is!

-Man, my ribs are bruised from holding the kick pad for this guy, those are some devastating kicks!

-buddy moves like a squirrel, I simply can not take him down!

Etc.

What color their wardrobe is never factors in.

That is provided you see the person in action. You might meet a martial artist and not see them in action.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I am at a place (in my teaching life) where grade is imporant. Rank is not.

in my students world. they are told to wear any color belt they want. On their keigoki there is a velcro patch.

As they progress (showing acquisition and mastery) through the curriculum, the number changes.
I have re-ordered my TSD curriculum using western style education. 1st year. 2nd year. and so on.


I have told them its ok to wear a black belt. At our tradition, It simply means 1. You are committed to never giving up and persevering in learning the art.
2. You will master your fundamentals. (if a person doesnt abide these two precepts, you will be asked to remove it and wear another color)

While I have rejected the Kyu/Gup, Dan system because of rank hierarchy. I tell my students you are all equal as humans, a parent who has favorites is an unfair parent. I choose to foster a sharing and caring culture.

I do plan on issuing certification diplomas similar to high school and college sheepskins. whenever someone completes the curriculum.

So in your school rank is shown not by belt but by patch. Every school has their own system of showing rank, some schools show it with belt color some show it by other means such as patches.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I agree this can happen. I don't see why it's important. If someone else won't take you seriously just because you're not a certain rank, their opinion of you probably isn't worth your time. (With obvious exceptions, such as if you're trying to make criticism about a black belt form and you're only a red belt).

It's been pointed out above the benefits of rank in a large school, with a curriculum designed around each belt. Rank is important because it's how you learn new concepts and advance your knowledge. But it's also important politically within your art. In the KKW, I'll have more rights as far as teaching goes the higher the degree I am. This is why I have my eyes set on earning 5th Dan and the rank and title of Master. It's not because of my ego (ok, there's a little bit in there). It's because I'll have the option to run my own school at that point.

I mean, I could always open my own school under my own art, but I think it carries a bigger weight if I've got that Master certification.

Well somebody might consider you more of an authority figure on an art if you're 1st Dan and above rather than if you're below 1st Dan. That is provided you're talking about a system that has a 1st Dan and you're in a situation where you're not going to show off your skill.

 

[TSDTexan]

That sounds like a pretty similar system to most belt ranking I've seen, other than the recognition of being able to teach two levels below (which I rather like). How does it differ dramatically in your view?

No goal of a "blackbelt" which i have seen way too many drop out soon as they hit shodan.

Also no political belts post 4th.

it just eschews the idea of the blackbelt and all that goes with it.

There never was a 1 to 1 correspondence between dan/kyu and elementary, middle school, high school, associate, batchelor, masters, phd.

Two different modalities.

I have chosen to break the curriculum down with the western approach.