A Reason Why Rank Might Be Important

[Dirty Dog]

I think you are confusing the Kyu / Dan rank system, with the traditions of Karate and TKD. The Kyu / Dan rank system is simply a system of breaking up the curriculum into sections, to be learned in an order. The number of the section you are on happens to be the color of the belt. For some reason, Karate and TKD have decided to pretend to be in the military, and associate the belt to some sort of position of power that continues outside the training hall.

Ummm... no. We do not.

 

[wab25]

I’ve read about this sort of thing, but to be honest I’ve almost never experienced it in person -even in arts with belt ranks.

Most Shotokan schools I have seen are like this. You always address Sensei as "Sensei" no matter where you are. "Sensei" is always the authority, no matter where you are or what you are doing. In class, Sensei barks orders:

Sensei: Line up!
Class: Hai Sensei!
Sensei: Step down in front stance, left side forward!
Class: Hai Sensei!
Sensei: Step forward, lunge punch, to my count!
Class: Hai Sensei!
Sensei: Ichi!
Sensei: Ni!
...

 

[wab25]

Ummm... no. We do not.

Would that be more of a school thing then? Or an organization thing? Of the three different TKD places I have trained in, two were like this... the one that wasn't gave me a long explanation as to why they were not like that, before they ever let me on the mat. It was my understanding that TDK was like this in general. But, I could be wrong here. Is that not the norm for most TKD schools?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Would that be more of a school thing then? Or an organization thing? Of the three different TKD places I have trained in, two were like this... the one that wasn't gave me a long explanation as to why they were not like that, before they ever let me on the mat. It was my understanding that TDK was like this in general. But, I could be wrong here. Is that not the norm for most TKD schools?

I don't think it's reasonable to make any sweeping general statement about something that includes a few million people.

I will say that I've trained in quite a few different schools with three different orgs and it's certainly not been the norm.

I don't think the Xenforo software here includes the ability to do polls, so this will be informal.
Is there anyone here who is training at a school that does this?

Here's how it works in our school (which is typical of my personal experience).
Whoever is in charge calls for the class to start, and people line up. Probably while chit chatting with each other in the process.
Instructor: OK, let's start with basic form 1. Go.
Instructor: Basic form 2. If you don't know that form yet, stay on Basic 1. Go.
[...]

If someone insisted on yelling "Yes Sabunim" every time one of us spoke, we'd tell them to knock it off.

And if someone referred to me as Master outside the dojang, I'd sure tell them to knock it off. My name is Mark.

Except Mrs Dog, of course. I'm still trying to convince her that she needs to call me Master at home, and at work.

 

[wab25]

I don't think it's reasonable to make any sweeping general statement about something that includes a few million people.

I will say that I've trained in quite a few different schools with three different orgs and it's certainly not been the norm.

I don't think the Xenforo software here includes the ability to do polls, so this will be informal.
Is there anyone here who is training at a school that does this?

Here's how it works in our school (which is typical of my personal experience).
Whoever is in charge calls for the class to start, and people line up. Probably while chit chatting with each other in the process.
Instructor: OK, let's start with basic form 1. Go.
Instructor: Basic form 2. If you don't know that form yet, stay on Basic 1. Go.
[...]

If someone insisted on yelling "Yes Sabunim" every time one of us spoke, we'd tell them to knock it off.

And if someone referred to me as Master outside the dojang, I'd sure tell them to knock it off. My name is Mark.

Except Mrs Dog, of course. I'm still trying to convince her that she needs to call me Master at home, and at work.

I wanted to click the "Thanks" icon... but couldn't find it... So you got a "Like" instead. Anyway, thanks for the clarification. I will modify my previous post to say "some karate and TKD schools." As I have not been to all of them, and my assumption proved wrong.

Of coarse this does go to show that the belt system can be (and I think, most frequently is) used, simply as an indicator of which parts of the curriculum you have studied so far. And that the military rank thing is not part of the belt system, but an additional tradition, whether by school, organization or art.

As a side note, the two "militarized TKD schools" I went two had the class responding "Yes Sir!" to each command.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Of coarse this does go to show that the belt system can be (and I think, most frequently is) used, simply as an indicator of which parts of the curriculum you have studied so far.

That is certainly how we use it, at least for the most part.
The only thing it really does in our system is indicate how high you can promote others.

 

[wab25]

That is certainly how we use it, at least for the most part.
The only thing it really does in our system is indicate how high you can promote others.

In our organization, we do actually use the belts a little more. Danzan Ryu has lots of throws, that get progressively higher and more dependent on uke to know how to take the fall. Our organization has a fairly uniform definition for minimum requirements for each rank. What this means is that I can go to any Danzan Ryu school in our organization and randori with all the students. Seeing their belt color, tells me what throws and falls they have trained. When working with the lower belts, I know what throws to limit myself to when doing randori and which throws I need to use extra control with, so as not to break a student by throwing him in a way that he has not been prepared for. And the higher ranking students do the same for me. (or at least they tell me they do... )

This all works great when there is uniformity in the curriculum for each rank. So far, we are doing well.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In our organization, we do actually use the belts a little more. Danzan Ryu has lots of throws, that get progressively higher and more dependent on uke to know how to take the fall. Our organization has a fairly uniform definition for minimum requirements for each rank. What this means is that I can go to any Danzan Ryu school in our organization and randori with all the students. Seeing their belt color, tells me what throws and falls they have trained. When working with the lower belts, I know what throws to limit myself to when doing randori and which throws I need to use extra control with, so as not to break a student by throwing him in a way that he has not been prepared for. And the higher ranking students do the same for me. (or at least they tell me they do... )

This all works great when there is uniformity in the curriculum for each rank. So far, we are doing well.

Is that any different from when you said:

simply as an indicator of which parts of the curriculum you have studied so far.

Because I admit I'm not seeing the difference. Other than using more words.

 

[wab25]

Because I admit I'm not seeing the difference. Other than using more words.

Was it more words = more rank or more posts = more rank... One thing for sure, after a good workout I am more rank than most people...

When going to a school that does point sparring, or light contact sparring... I can use any technique I want, that I can control. It does not matter if the white belt I am sparring with has trained or even seen a jump spinning reverse hook kick. But, as long as I can control it, to hit an allowed target with the agreed upon level of contact, its fair game... and no one should be in danger of injury. However, when throwing someone with Daki Kubi, if you want them to get back up again, its important that they have the proper training to take that fall.

So technically, its the same thing. I just wanted to point out that sometimes, knowing what parts of the curriculum the other guy has trained, can have safety implications as well.

 

[drop bear]

Or school has a culture of encouraging people to achieve things. You walk away with the belt. You walk away with the new job. Or ten kilos lighter or whatever you have set as goal for yourself.

Good work. Be proud of that.

Belts are an achievement of years of blood sweat and tears. They are important.

 

[Martial D]

Or school has a culture of encouraging people to achieve things. You walk away with the belt. You walk away with the new job. Or ten kilos lighter or whatever you have set as goal for yourself.

Good work. Be proud of that.

Belts are an achievement of years of blood sweat and tears. They are important.

Unless they aren't. There's more than a few FasTrack/online school/mail-order/mcdojo black belts out there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No goal of a "blackbelt" which i have seen way too many drop out soon as they hit shodan.

That's valid point. "Black belt" has become an endpoint in some people's minds. I think that may be less a "thing" than it once was (when there was the common mythology surrounding a black belt), but it surely still exists.

Also no political belts post 4th.

Or post 2nd (in my former association). But that goes away if you just ditch the political/honorary (I'm assuming you're referring to those) belts. There are no ranks beyond "black belt" in my system, simply because there were no significant technical requirements beyond shodan in my old association - so I just ditched everything beyond that point.

it just eschews the idea of the blackbelt and all that goes with it.

We already touched on that, and I agree, though I also think there are reasonable approaches to changing that without ditching the belt ranks. Quitting at 1st dan wasn't seen much in the NGAA when I was a member, probably because anyone who would have quit at that point probably quit before then (it took most folks 7+ years).

There never was a 1 to 1 correspondence between dan/kyu and elementary, middle school, high school, associate, batchelor, masters, phd.

Two different modalities.

I have chosen to break the curriculum down with the western approach.

I'm not sure what that has to do with it, but that's probably just me missing your point. I don't have an issue with shifting things to what seems a better match to the culture where they're taught. Seems a reasonable approach.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Unless they aren't. There's more than a few FasTrack/online school/mail-order/mcdojo black belts out there.

Yeah, but they're the minority by far, in my experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

grade not rank. rank has hierarchy built into it. its a military term. and a vestige of Japanese Karate and Judo (from a karate viewpoint)

That may be splitting hairs. I still use the term "rank", though I've done away with the whole idea of "he outranks you" (which was very prevalent within the NGAA, in my experience). But I take your meaning, and there's a point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And you have a hierarchy. A grade 2 can't teach a grade 4.

That is a bit of a hierarchy, but not in the restrictive sense I've seen in some TMA schools, where there's (in my opinion) too much attention paid to the color the other guy is wearing. I was taught (though I didn't learn) not to ever correct someone of higher rank. I think that's harmful to all involved.

 

[TSDTexan]

Most Shotokan schools I have seen are like this. You always address Sensei as "Sensei" no matter where you are. "Sensei" is always the authority, no matter where you are or what you are doing. In class, Sensei barks orders:

Sensei: Line up!
Class: Hai Sensei!
Sensei: Step down in front stance, left side forward!
Class: Hai Sensei!
Sensei: Step forward, lunge punch, to my count!
Class: Hai Sensei!
Sensei: Ichi!
Sensei: Ni!
...

Well, I was trying to avoid calling out specific brands of karate... You have done the favor for me. Shotokan could be an exemplar of this. But it is certainly not exclusive to Shotokan.

"Is There FEAR, in THIS Dojo?"
[Class in unison]:
"NO SENSEI!!!"

While it is a movie, Tang Soo Do had a number of influences upon its creation. The Cobra Kai maybe hyperbolic in nature... but it wasn't too far off from a number of dojang and dojo that I have seen and heard about.

 

[TSDTexan]

Unless they aren't. There's more than a few FasTrack/online school/mail-order/mcdojo black belts out there.

sad but true.

 

[TSDTexan]

That may be splitting hairs. I still use the term "rank", though I've done away with the whole idea of "he outranks you" (which was very prevalent within the NGAA, in my experience). But I take your meaning, and there's a point.

Thank you... i was wondering if was alone in seeing a distinction. I already had enough evidence to doubt my own sanity.

 

[TSDTexan]

That's valid point. "Black belt" has become an endpoint in some people's minds. I think that may be less a "thing" than it once was (when there was the common mythology surrounding a black belt), but it surely still exists.


Or post 2nd (in my former association). But that goes away if you just ditch the political/honorary (I'm assuming you're referring to those) belts. There are no ranks beyond "black belt" in my system, simply because there were no significant technical requirements beyond shodan in my old association - so I just ditched everything beyond that point.


We already touched on that, and I agree, though I also think there are reasonable approaches to changing that without ditching the belt ranks. Quitting at 1st dan wasn't seen much in the NGAA when I was a member, probably because anyone who would have quit at that point probably quit before then (it took most folks 7+ years).


I'm not sure what that has to do with it, but that's probably just me missing your point. I don't have an issue with shifting things to what seems a better match to the culture where they're taught. Seems a reasonable approach.

On the first point. there was an Okinawan phrase
... which escapes me right this moment. But in English it comes across as "Dan Collector", in reference to somebody who has jumped styles a few times, right after obtaining shodan. It was seen more often as something westerners seemed to do.

The fact that there was a phrase for it, surprised me at the moment. But upon reflection I totally get it.

As for the last point, my methods have always been under critical self review. Is there a beter way to do something?
If so, how can I implement it?

In the last five or so years, I did a lot of soul searching, while also looking back in time, at karate about the time Itosu brought it out into the public.

When karate was by todays standards more karate jitsu then karatedo. More primitive in a sense. Not a quest to make yourself a better person, but a regimen for phisical health, and unarmed self defense against a relatively low skilled assailant.

The kata wasnt pretty or flashy like the jka tournament stuff of today. It had a rough around the edges... but could cripple and maim someone flavor.

The bunkai was deep. It was more about the practical. Karate for better or worse changed greatly when it went to Japan. In oh so many ways.

The more got into the work of Patrick McCarthy and other researcher the more I felt a need to revert some practices, and methods.

As time went on, I realized I didnt have to do it the way I always did. So I took everything apart. Looking back, what changed? Why did it change? Are these changes neccessary?

I rebuilt and tried to remain faithful to what was originally Te, and was was additions were added by the Koreans and the Japanese, that were useful.

And then adopt a western scholastic mode.
Prior to Itosu Karate was an bujitsu artesian enterprise.
Post Japan exportation... Dojos taught karate more like an assembly line factory.

We have a DO.. a blueprint, a way... a method. We teach this way, no deviation.

To promote health, make you a better citizen, and a good recruit.

A lot of this is cultural. Japan even to this day is very very big on "Do".

Post war... karate in japan saw a sea change in "budo" emphasis. Less jitsu... more do. Primarily, because of the Allied Forces GHQ edicts that led to the purges at the DNBK... and the supression of Japanese martial arts schools.

This is the flavor of most GI Serviceman karate that came back to the US.

My question is what would karate in Hawaii have been like if Choki Motobu had been allowed into the country before WW2? Instead of being denied entry to to having questionable character. His streetfighter background was known well enough to get him barred.

What would that dojo have for us today?
Certainly not the kick punch kick kata and point fighting that is of questionable value (imho)

 

[drop bear]

Unless they aren't. There's more than a few FasTrack/online school/mail-order/mcdojo black belts out there.

If they made rank important. Then you wouldn't get that as much.