A Reason Why Rank Might Be Important

[TSDTexan]

So in your school rank is shown not by belt but by patch. Every school has their own system of showing rank, some schools show it with belt color some show it by other means such as patches.

grade not rank. rank has hierarchy built into it. its a military term. and a vestige of Japanese Karate and Judo (from a karate viewpoint)

 

[TSDTexan]

How does someone move from Grade 1 to Grade 2? Is it purely time in grade, is it a test, is it a verification in-class that they're ready to move on?

My Taekwondo school has 12 keub ranks, and depending on how you want to look at it, so far we either have 3 dan ranks (except my Master who's a few dan ranks above me), or we have 8 dan+gup ranks (because there's intermediate levels between degrees).So let's say 20 ranks.

Now, we don't have "kyu". We don't have "Mudansha". Because this is a Korean school. But what's to separate me being "Rank 20" and me being "3rd dan"? Names and groups.

The differences between our two systems are the names, and the specific rules applied to each. In yours:

• You rank up at the end of a semester
• You can teach 2 ranks below

In ours:

• You rank up if you take and pass our bi-monthly tests
• You can assist starting at 1st keub, or start teaching at 1st dan

It's the implementation that's different, but both are a rank system.

progress through grade is a function of completing that curriculum and demonstrating that it is understood well enough to teach it.
sure you can have formal testing. but with a really small student body... the instructor has eyes on each student and knows where they are at in the curriculum.

 

[skribs]

grade not rank. rank has hierarchy built into it. its a military term. and a vestige of Japanese Karate and Judo (from a karate viewpoint)

And you have a hierarchy. A grade 2 can't teach a grade 4.

 

[skribs]

progress through grade is a function of completing that curriculum and demonstrating that it is understood well enough to teach it.
sure you can have formal testing. but with a really small student body... the instructor has eyes on each student and knows where they are at in the curriculum.

That makes more sense. But it still feels like a belt system with different names and symbols.

 

[Martial D]

So how does someone impress you on the forums?

As a rule, they don't.

 

[TSDTexan]

And you have a hierarchy. A grade 2 can't teach a grade 4.

not in the sense that a high school student and a college student see each other as co equals... one simply is further along the same path.

hiearchy.... one has higher status than another. pecking order.
non hierarchy... everyone is of equal status.

runners in a marathon... handing batons... the race itself is the destination... there is no finishline... life long journey. Everyone is a runner. everyone is equal. No status or rank for having more laps completed.

no competition... except with yourself to improve your own laptimes... form.. etc.

 

[Martial D]

That is provided you see the person in action. You might meet a martial artist and not see them in action.

Indeed. And if that same person tells me they have a black belt, nothing changes. There are a ton of 'black belts' with next to 0 practical fighting ability.

 

[skribs]

not in the sense that a high school student and a college student see each other as co equals... one simply is further along the same path.

hiearchy.... one has higher status than another. pecking order.
non hierarchy... everyone is of equal status.

If I went to your school, is there anyone I'd be required to follow their directions?

 

[TSDTexan]

If I went to your school, is there anyone I'd be required to follow their directions?

Whoever is running the class, and whoever you "ask" to help you, that is qualified.

 

[skribs]

Whoever is running the class, and whoever you "ask" to help you, that is qualified.

What happens if I don't follow their directions?

 

[TSDTexan]

One of the reasons there is so much soldier culture and rank based heirachy in japanese karate is because of the efforts of Kentsū Yabu. When you get right down to it... He set the standards and others followed suit.
Its a bit more then just the kyu dan rank issue.

 

[TSDTexan]

What happens if I don't follow their directions?

Well... word would get around that when you ask for help.. you really don't want it. It would reduce the number of people willing to share with you. Of course, if you don't want to follow directions of the class instructor, you would go to the principal's office... where a paddle awaits.

or just a polite talking to.

If shenanigans were to continue... class instruction would cease to be an option. Leaving private lessons or behavior modification (self reform) as the remaining means of progressing.

There are no Orders being barked (rank). everything is an ask (equity)
This is based upon agreed mutual respect.

 

[skribs]

Well... word would get around that when you ask for help.. you really don't want it. It would reduce the number of people willing to share with you. Of course, if you don't want to follow directions of the class instructor, you would go to the principal's office... where a paddle awaits.

or just a polite talking to.
If shenanigans were to continue... class instruction would cease to be an option. Leaving private lessons or behavior modification (self reform) as the remaining means of progressing.

It seems to me that if I am supposed to listen to the people who are a higher rank than me, and if there is a "principal"...that there is a hierarchy in your system.

 

[pgsmith]

That is provided you see the person in action. You might meet a martial artist and not see them in action.

Seeing someone in action is not necessary to evaluate how long they've been training and thus their knowledge level. It is fairly simple to converse with someone and figure out how experienced they are based on their responses and understanding.

You'll understand this better later on in your martial arts journey.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well... word would get around that when you ask for help.. you really don't want it. It would reduce the number of people willing to share with you. Of course, if you don't want to follow directions of the class instructor, you would go to the principal's office... where a paddle awaits.

or just a polite talking to.

If shenanigans were to continue... class instruction would cease to be an option. Leaving private lessons or behavior modification (self reform) as the remaining means of progressing.

There are no Orders being barked (rank). everything is an ask (equity)
This is based upon agreed mutual respect.

So in other words... you have a rank hierarchy.

 

[TSDTexan]

It seems to me that if I am supposed to listen to the people who are a higher rank than me, and if there is a "principal"...that there is a hierarchy in your system.

I think you are missing the nuance in the distinction.
Perhaps you don't see the difference between grade and rank.

When i was in the high school cafeteria the students more or less treated each other as equals freshman or senior year. The administration didn't enforce privileges and restrictions and responsibilities upon the student body to create a culture of heirachy.

Compare to the military. An officer is to be saluted at all times... for an NCO or other enlisted serviceman to fail to salute could result in a court martial.

There is a big distinction.. and you find a lot of in the TMAs rank is like that.

 

[TSDTexan]

So in other words... you have a rank hierarchy.

No. you dont have a lot of seniors telling juniors what to do (rank). A junior ask the liberty to ask qualified people for help.

Its a heirachy of competence vs a hierarchy of mere tradition and rank. You can get rank and be incompetent. Thats what politics often is about in kodansha level stuff.

Leave your org... join mine... i will give you your next dan. JC Shin stole a teacher from someone, in exchange for his next dan rank. It happens far too often.

Their are always going to be heirachies. But there are different types of heirachy and culture.

Itosu backwards... we didnt have the military culture rank type heirachy. It was heirachy of competance.

 

[skribs]

I think you are missing the nuance in the distinction.
Perhaps you don't see the difference between grade and rank.

When i was in the high school cafeteria the students more or less treated each other as equals freshman or senior year. The administration didn't enforce privileges and restrictions and responsibilities upon the student body to create a culture of heirachy.

Compare to the military. An officer is to be saluted at all times... for an NCO or other enlisted serviceman to fail to salute could result in a court martial.

There is a big distinction.. and you find a lot of in the TMAs rank is like that.

I was never in a situation in high school where the Freshmen were taught by the Seniors, or where they had to follow the instructions of the Seniors.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think you are missing the nuance in the distinction.
Perhaps you don't see the difference between grade and rank.

When i was in the high school cafeteria the students more or less treated each other as equals freshman or senior year. The administration didn't enforce privileges and restrictions and responsibilities upon the student body to create a culture of heirachy.

Compare to the military. An officer is to be saluted at all times... for an NCO or other enlisted serviceman to fail to salute could result in a court martial.

There is a big distinction.. and you find a lot of in the TMAs rank is like that.

It sounds like you’re talking about the culture found in some schools where higher ranked individuals are expected to be treated not just as possessing a greater degree of expertise in whatever the art is, but a more general authority over lower ranked students. (At its most innocuous, this might mean extra bowing to higher ranked individuals or addressing them with certain titles. At its worst, this might be a cult where lower ranks are expected to provide service to higher ranks outside the school.)

I’ve read about this sort of thing, but to be honest I’ve almost never experienced it in person -even in arts with belt ranks.

 

[wab25]

I think you are missing the nuance in the distinction.
Perhaps you don't see the difference between grade and rank.

When i was in the high school cafeteria the students more or less treated each other as equals freshman or senior year. The administration didn't enforce privileges and restrictions and responsibilities upon the student body to create a culture of heirachy.

Compare to the military. An officer is to be saluted at all times... for an NCO or other enlisted serviceman to fail to salute could result in a court martial.

There is a big distinction.. and you find a lot of in the TMAs rank is like that.

I think you are confusing the Kyu / Dan rank system, with the traditions of some Karate and TKD schools. The Kyu / Dan rank system is simply a system of breaking up the curriculum into sections, to be learned in an order. The number of the section you are on happens to be the color of the belt. For some reason, some Karate and TKD schools have decided to pretend to be in the military, and associate the belt to some sort of position of power that continues outside the training hall.

However, Danzan Ryu, Aikido, Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, Judo, Kendo, and many other arts do not do this. Your belt denotes what parts of the curriculum you have studied and what you are working on now. No one barks orders. Everyone works together. After class, the belts come off and all hang out together. No saluting, sirring, or senseiing on or off the mat. (ok, they may sensei the instructor on the mat, if the student chooses to) I note that BJJ has been able to pick up and use the Kyu / Dan rank system in this non-militarized fashion as well. I have never understood why some Karate and TKD schools have this need to imitate the military... but, they seem to enjoy it.

You could get the same effect, by simply de-militarizing your school. At that point, belt color and patch number become literally the same thing. They become the same thing that the belts are in most arts, outside of Karate and TKD.

NOTE: I have edited this post to denote that some Karate and TKD schools do this, but not all. Thanks Dog, for the clarification.