A Reason Why Rank Might Be Important

[Gerry Seymour]

Where people are trying to make money and deliver skills though. And where they have no clue.

We have created the vehicle for them to do that in our acceptance of everything being basically equivalent.

All systems are equal. Rank doesn't matter. Everyone gets a medal.

I'm not sure there's a solution to that, DB. It's not up to me or you or anyone to dictate what MA must be. We could try to redefine MA so the term requires fighting ability at some level, but that doesn't guarantee anyone else uses that definition. Personally, I'm okay with "martial arts" meaning a wide range of things. I look for what I want, and expect others want to do the same.

I don't think it's all equivalent, but it's all in the same category. And rank never has meant anything more (except in the expectations of the uninformed) than what a given group designates it to mean. Rank really doesn't matter, unless it matters to the individual.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure there's a solution to that, DB. It's not up to me or you or anyone to dictate what MA must be. We could try to redefine MA so the term requires fighting ability at some level, but that doesn't guarantee anyone else uses that definition. Personally, I'm okay with "martial arts" meaning a wide range of things. I look for what I want, and expect others want to do the same.

I don't think it's all equivalent, but it's all in the same category. And rank never has meant anything more (except in the expectations of the uninformed) than what a given group designates it to mean. Rank really doesn't matter, unless it matters to the individual.

Hold ourselves to a higher critical standard.

So that there is a separation between what a system that is doing its job and a system that doesn't.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hold ourselves to a higher critical standard.

So that there is a separation between what a system that is doing its job and a system that doesn't.

Okay, but if the job it’s being used for isn’t combat training, then it might be doing its job, but not the job you (or I or any other individual) hold yourself to the standard for. Am I making sense?

 

[TSDTexan]

All martial arts schools have a hierarchy even those that don't use ranks or grades. I once had a friend who trained in a chinese style where you started on day one with a uniform and a red belt. Your belt color did not change and your uniform did not change. You started with a red belt and you finished with a red belt. There were no patches or anything to denote any kind of rank or grade. But there was a hierarchy. There was the hierarchy of instructor-student. So all martial arts schools do have a hierarchy, if nothing else the instructor-student hierarchy.

the dichotomy isnt that heirachy exists. Its the nature of the heirachy. Herachy of competance vs cultural conformity based in rank status... who has been there longest or what belt is around your waist.

Okinawan martial arts didn't have that until Mainland Imperial Japan (DNBK) had pretty much imposed some dictates. And those changes made their way back to Okinawa.

Prior to that Okinawan martial arts were quite similar to belt less CMA like you spoke about.
CMA was held in high regard in Okinawa.

You had a school master, older "uncles" outside the kwoon, Elder brothers... and younger brothers.

There was a measure of heirachy, but it bore little to none of the Military-esque culture and the kyu-dan system that came to be.

Like i was saying before it was like artesian bujitsu in comparison to assembly line factory production Do schools.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Barring outside training and extremes of personal aggression, I'd expect one of my green belts (third belt) to be able to "beat" one of my yellow belts (first belt) on a regular basis in sparring/rolling.

So yellow belt is your first belt, do you not have the white belt in your system? In most systems that do have belts the white belt is the first belt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So yellow belt is your first belt, do you not have the white belt in your system? In most systems that do have belts the white belt is the first belt.

Yellow is the fist one that is earned. I should have been clearer.

 

[JR 137]

Yellow is the fist one that is earned. I should have been clearer.

I some schools make the students earn their white belt. My previous one wouldn’t give it to you until you memorized the first line of the student creed. Others require learning a few techniques. Stuff like that.

The way I figure, you earn it just by having the guts to show up and give it a try.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I some schools make the students earn their white belt. My previous one wouldn’t give it to you until you memorized the first line of the student creed. Others require learning a few techniques. Stuff like that.

The way I figure, you earn it just by having the guts to show up and give it a try.

That's actually why I refer to yellow as "the first belt" - I had considered not putting folks in uniform immediately, letting them earn their white belt (there's a "foundation" test that happens quite early in the white belt material). So I used to refer to white as "the first belt [earned]", and just decided not to go that route.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's actually why I refer to yellow as "the first belt" - I had considered not putting folks in uniform immediately, letting them earn their white belt (there's a "foundation" test that happens quite early in the white belt material). So I used to refer to white as "the first belt [earned]", and just decided not to go that route.

That's how we do it. White belt is earned, by learning the first basic form. Don't even need to do it all that well, just get through it.
Takes most people a month or so. The idea is to give them a chance to try things out without spending money on a uniform.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's how we do it. White belt is earned, by learning the first basic form. Don't even need to do it all that well, just get through it.
Takes most people a month or so. The idea is to give them a chance to try things out without spending money on a uniform.

That was my original thought. I don't remember why I ditched it, actually. I've always allowed folks to train in plain clothes or a uniform from previous training until they have a uniform (I don't keep more than one or two on hand). I might revisit the idea of putting them in uniform after the foundation (a minimum of 10 classes, unless they have prior training).

 

[JR 137]

That's how we do it. White belt is earned, by learning the first basic form. Don't even need to do it all that well, just get through it.
Takes most people a month or so. The idea is to give them a chance to try things out without spending money on a uniform.

I understand and agree with it in your setting. My niece had a similar experience. There was a community program that taught Shotokan for free, funded by the city’s rec department or something like that.

Kids had to “earn” their uniform and white belt by demonstrating Taikyoku 1 kata and a few basic hand techniques and kicks. The uniforms were free. It was honestly so they didn’t give away 500 uniforms on the first day. They’d typically have 50 kids after a month or two, and less than that by the end of the program (it was a school year long program). It saved the taxpayers money.

 

[PhotonGuy]

With all this talk about uniforms and belts and whether or not students even start with a white belt, I saw this case of really unusual rank progression. The school had about 15 students or so but only two of them had uniforms and they were both white belts. The rest of the students just trained in street clothes. Then, when they had their first tournament, all of the students were all of a sudden black belts. At the tournament, all the students had black uniforms with black belts including the vast majority who didn't even have uniforms to begin with.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

With all this talk about uniforms and belts and whether or not students even start with a white belt, I saw this case of really unusual rank progression. The school had about 15 students or so but only two of them had uniforms and they were both white belts. The rest of the students just trained in street clothes. Then, when they had their first tournament, all of the students were all of a sudden black belts. At the tournament, all the students had black uniforms with black belts including the vast majority who didn't even have uniforms to begin with.

Were they any good?

 

[lklawson]

I believe the belt and grading systems were introduced by the Japanese,

Ranks and gradings in the study of martial arts were introduced as early as the 16th Century or earlier by the Europeans. In particular the English introduced the Company of Masters which both graded and licensed martial arts students and instructors along a system similar to the Guild system with ranks of Scholar, Free Scholar, Provost, and Maister with a minimum of 7 years between each grading event, called "Playing the Prize" and included a demonstration of skill against all challengers, unarmed and with weapons.

Even in modern Fencing there is still a testing and grading system which well predates Funakoshi and Kano.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[TSDTexan]

Ranks and gradings in the study of martial arts were introduced as early as the 16th Century or earlier by the Europeans. In particular the English introduced the Company of Masters which both graded and licensed martial arts students and instructors along a system similar to the Guild system with ranks of Scholar, Free Scholar, Provost, and Maister with a minimum of 7 years between each grading event, called "Playing the Prize" and included a demonstration of skill against all challengers, unarmed and with weapons.

Even in modern Fencing there is still a testing and grading system which well predates Funakoshi and Kano.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yep. This is true.

 

[JR 137]

Ranks and gradings in the study of martial arts were introduced as early as the 16th Century or earlier by the Europeans. In particular the English introduced the Company of Masters which both graded and licensed martial arts students and instructors along a system similar to the Guild system with ranks of Scholar, Free Scholar, Provost, and Maister with a minimum of 7 years between each grading event, called "Playing the Prize" and included a demonstration of skill against all challengers, unarmed and with weapons.

Even in modern Fencing there is still a testing and grading system which well predates Funakoshi and Kano.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Pretty sure the Koreans had it before them

 

[lklawson]

Pretty sure the Koreans had it before them

Maybe. Humans love to have ranks and gradings. I think that it's coded on the DNA. We simply MUST have some sort of pecking order. <sigh>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[PhotonGuy]

Were they any good?

Yes some of them were on screen but this was a YouTube series and not real life.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Maybe. Humans love to have ranks and gradings. I think that it's coded on the DNA. We simply MUST have some sort of pecking order. <sigh>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Well we do. Whether or not we have formal ranks or grades we always have a pecking order of some sort.

 

[Steve]

Okay, but if the job it’s being used for isn’t combat training, then it might be doing its job, but not the job you (or I or any other individual) hold yourself to the standard for. Am I making sense?

Does tae bo have belt ranks? Does it need them?