New member with questions need advice

[Tez3]

I can't find his fight record but if he sounds to you like someone you want to train with then go for it!

 

[Kframe]

I can't find his fight record but if he sounds to you like someone you want to train with then go for it!

I get a feeling when i talk to him, something that inspires confidence. I hope everything works out. In the end who knows were ill end up, it will all depend on how i feel after sampling the instruction.

 

[Tez3]

I get a feeling when i talk to him, something that inspires confidence. I hope everything works out. In the end who knows were ill end up, it will all depend on how i feel after sampling the instruction.

Well if you train MMA, decide you want to fight and can come across to the UK I'll match you up!

 

[Kframe]

Here is a question, based on my age and my level of non experiance, how long if itrain hard, will i be in a position to even think of a real match? I dont even know why im thinking of that but for figured id ask out of morbid curiosity. Im guessing it will be more then 2 years minimum.

So, self defense wise i know ill have gaps to fill. One of those being weapon defeanse. The other would be filling out the gaps in the judo/jujisu ill be learning. One of the things will be small joint manipulation, which im sure both jujitsu and judo both have but are illegal in mma. Ill have to find a way to incorparate that as well as takedowns(related to small joint manipulation if im correct right?) and the more "aggressive" striking techniques. Such as kicks to the front of the knee, manipulation of the elbow and other disabiling things. Ill defineatly spend awhile at this gym, but i know at somepoint im going to train at others to fill in the gaps.

Who knows, maybe ill be able to come up with something effective.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Here is a question, based on my age and my level of non experiance, how long if itrain hard, will i be in a position to even think of a real match? I dont even know why im thinking of that but for figured id ask out of morbid curiosity. Im guessing it will be more then 2 years minimum.

So, self defense wise i know ill have gaps to fill. One of those being weapon defeanse. The other would be filling out the gaps in the judo/jujisu ill be learning. One of the things will be small joint manipulation, which im sure both jujitsu and judo both have but are illegal in mma. Ill have to find a way to incorparate that as well as takedowns(related to small joint manipulation if im correct right?) and the more "aggressive" striking techniques. Such as kicks to the front of the knee, manipulation of the elbow and other disabiling things. Ill defineatly spend awhile at this gym, but i know at somepoint im going to train at others to fill in the gaps.

Who knows, maybe ill be able to come up with something effective.

If you go to a 'self defense' class, you will actually find that the quantity of techniques is quite low.

The notion of filling 'holes' in your art for self defense purposes is a bit of a red herring. Techniques usually recommended for self defense are ones dependent upon gross motor skill. Anything elaborate or in need of fine control is usually not taught for self defense because with adrenaline dump, you probably won't be able to use it anyway.

Having a small selection of go-to techniques that you can do unconsciously and practice regularly will serve you better than a comprehensive system that you'll have trouble remembering and/or cannot practice regularly. One of the benefits of striking arts is that you can practice strikes in even fairly confined spaces and by one's self. Hard to do meaningful practice of joint locks or throws by yourself.

A nice selection of basic strikes, knowledge of escapes from basic grabs, and some basic locks, sweeps, and takedowns are, with regards to physical technique, really all that you need. The most important thing is to do something. If you freeze, it doesn't matter what or how many techniques you know. The art is fairly unimportant in this aspect.

The rest of a self defense class will focus on habits, observation, and other non-physical aspects of keeping safe.

Regarding weapon defense, much of what I have seen in TMA schools of varying arts is completely unrealistic. Your best bet is to stay the heck away from an armed attacker. In other words, run. Knife defenses are the worst offenders because of all of the weapons you may encounter, the knife is both the most readily available and the one that you are most likely to attempt to use those defenses against. The other high possibility is a gun, but for most, gun defenses will not remove the innate fear and respect that people have for guns and what they can do.

With knives, however, a student is more likely to lose some of that fear and respect. And will most likely get killed if they try much of what I have seen against a knife wielding attacker.

Not saying that there isn't good material out there, but there is both a lot of out and out bad material, or good material that is trained in such a way as to make it useless against an actual attacker with a knife. And I treat sharpened screwdrivers as essentially being knives for the purpose of self defense.

Third weapon that is common and readily available is random hand held bludgeoning tools. Baseball bat, stick, pipe, tire iron, the ubiquitous plumbers wrench (one was found even on the enterprise for Kirk to use in a fight), etc. Defenses against such items are easier to teach, but again, they have to be practiced realistically.

Daniel

 

[Kframe]

Daniel, Thanks for your input. I had intended to include some knife and impact weapon defense in my training. Its not that hard to get "blue" weapons that are innert and ment for training. I didnt know that most of the commonly taught knife defense is unrealisitc. I guess when it comes to weapons training i have to do it as close to full speed WITH a partner to get any worth out of it.

Truthfully one of the things i know i have to work on, but havnt any clue how to is my startle response. WHen i get suddenly startled my hands go up to the center of my chest and i turn to look at what startled me, and scream like like girl. Of course i can think and react once my startle is over, but that half second im startling is precious time.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel, Thanks for your input. I had intended to include some knife and impact weapon defense in my training. Its not that hard to get "blue" weapons that are innert and ment for training. I didnt know that most of the commonly taught knife defense is unrealisitc. I guess when it comes to weapons training i have to do it as close to full speed WITH a partner to get any worth out of it.

At least most of what I've personally seen is unrealistic. Usually, it involves attackers making slow, wide, arcing attacks or basically throwing reverse punches with a knife in their hand.

I suspect that most people teaching knife defenses have never actually had to use them and have never learned to use the knife as anything more than cutting their food.

Daniel

 

[jks9199]

Very few knife defenses are developed for realistic knife attacks.

Very few martial arts or self defense programs are designed with realistic attacks in mind.

Any martial art training -- whether MMA, Tae Kwon Do, ninjutsu, or whatever you care to name -- can provide you tools to prepare for violence. But you have to train and practice properly for that goal. Imagine a sprinter who spends their training time running marathons; he's probably going to do rather poorly in the sprint in the end, no?

If you want to prepare for real violence, train in whatever you want. But train with a mindset and methodology geared towards that goal. I refer you to Rory Miller, Bruce Siddle, Dave Grossman, Marc MacYoung, among several others, for solid information on the difference in training as a sport or hobby and training for real violence.

 

[Kframe]

Very few knife defenses are developed for realistic knife attacks.

Very few martial arts or self defense programs are designed with realistic attacks in mind.

Any martial art training -- whether MMA, Tae Kwon Do, ninjutsu, or whatever you care to name -- can provide you tools to prepare for violence. But you have to train and practice properly for that goal. Imagine a sprinter who spends their training time running marathons; he's probably going to do rather poorly in the sprint in the end, no?

If you want to prepare for real violence, train in whatever you want. But train with a mindset and methodology geared towards that goal. I refer you to Rory Miller, Bruce Siddle, Dave Grossman, Mark MacYoung, among several others, for solid information on the difference in training as a sport or hobby and training for real violence.

Thanks for your input sir!
I kind of gathered from my own research and from people here and other places that regardless what art or style i choose its up to me to practice and be aware of my surroundings and the people near me. Its up to me to practice and spar, as hard as i can. So that i can be prepared to take a hit and give them. In the case of mma, i know that ill have to practice on my own, the illegal things. The things that i cant practice at the gym. Thankfully those things arnt going to be difficult to practice and impiment seeing as there also gross motor functions. Things like kicking the frontal part of the knee, and and groin kicking/eye gouging and biting are things that can be done with out fine motor skills. At least i think so. In one of my 2 self defense fights, i actually did a few of those things(due to my extraordinarily sucky punhing skills) to escape and evade the attackers.(there were 3 of them, fools came at me one at a time)

Do the people you mentioned above have any books or things i can read? I found a book on WW2 combatives, and plan on ordering it. I look forward to reading it, i think i may see anything usefull in it. The books and such should contain some usefull tidbits that can be incorparated.

For me MMA cant and wont be the final destination, but only the beginning of the journey. I will use it as a base, a strong foundation to build from. I have 3 friends willing to help train in the off days from the gym. In those times i will practice the things that i cant in the gym. Hopefully in time i can get the coach to give me some time to practice the other stuff before or after class.

I have been doing much reading into this and have much more research to go. I just found out my son may have epsilepsy, and the costs are skyrocketing with all the doctor visits and research thats going on. This will delay my entrance in to training for a bit, but in time it will pass and ill be able to move on.

 

[jks9199]

Run 'em through a search engine. Shoot, search 'em here on MT. I know three of the four I mentioned will come up in threads -- and I suspect the last will.

Rory Miller is a retired correctional sergeant who is a highly respected trainer for the real deal. He is the author of Meditations on Violence and Facing Violence (just released). He's not only seen the elephant and got the t-shirt -- but he's put the t-shirt on the elephant.

Dave Grossman is a retired US Army colonel. He has extensive research and writings into what goes on psychologically and physiologically in a life-or-death violent encounter.

Bruce Siddle is one of the first people to actually look at what happens and how to prepare for violent encounters in a scientifically reliable manner.

Marc MacYoung? He's a thug. But he's a thug who's given some good thought into what he does and why. Who can and has written rather well.

There are others... but if you don't know some of these names, and claim to be preparing people for violent encounters, you're probably not doing it right.

I'll give you a hint... some of what you're talking about is wrong. It's based on misunderstandings of violence. It won't have the results you seem to want, any more than hours on a target range is sufficient preparation for combat shooting.

Suggested reading, take 1.

 

[Kframe]

Ill lookem up, thanks again! I may have some misunderstandings, but thats why i am here asking. So in that vain, Can you point out to me anything i have said that is a misunderstanding of violence? Im just asking so that i can further my learning.

I intend to purchase those books, as well as V-5 the ww2 combatives book.(Amongs others on my purchase list)

Im discovering that martial arts are like trying to decide between blonds,brunettes, and redheads. Everyone has a strong opinion on which is better and why lol. Or its more like on the TFL forums, were fights erupt over which brand of pistol is better, even if the choices are all teir 1 manufacturers.

 

[jks9199]

You're starting from a misunderstanding of a true violent encounter. It's that simple.

For your goals of weight loss and exercise, your plans are great. But to meet your goal of being prepared for violence -- you need to correct that.

 

[Kframe]

You're starting from a misunderstanding of a true violent encounter. It's that simple.

For your goals of weight loss and exercise, your plans are great. But to meet your goal of being prepared for violence -- you need to correct that.

How so? I dont understand what you mean. Are you saying learning how to punch/kick/grapple isnt going to help in my desire to learn self defense? I just dont understand. Is this a TMA vs MMA thing?

Please fill me in, honestly im lost as to how im misunderstanding it? How is learning the basics of punching and kicking and grappling going to be a bad thing?

Edit to add. I already train with my pistol regularly, and keep my awareness high. I know that a violent encounter will likely be very close, very fast and very ugly.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Very few knife defenses are developed for realistic knife attacks.

Very few martial arts or self defense programs are designed with realistic attacks in mind.

One of the reasons that I contend that most 'martial arts' are not martial at all, but are simply fighting systems designed for unarmed dueling using a skill set common to the region or are archaic military arts and folk games that have been ritualized and preserved for cultural and personal enrichment.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How so? I dont understand what you mean. Are you saying learning how to punch/kick/grapple isnt going to help in my desire to learn self defense? I just dont understand. Is this a TMA vs MMA thing?

Please fill me in, honestly im lost as to how im misunderstanding it? How is learning the basics of punching and kicking and grappling going to be a bad thing?

He never said that it would be a bad thing. Specifically, he said that most martial arts, and certainly MMA, are not designed with realistic attacks in mind.

That means realistic within a self defense context. You won't be mugged by a guy who will jump in front of you, do some cool moves, and then issue you a challenge. The guy attacking you in an attempt to violently injure you will not do so in a way that is consistent with the way that an athlete in an MMA bout will attack you.

Edit to add. I already train with my pistol regularly, and keep my awareness high. I know that a violent encounter will likely be very close, very fast and very ugly.

And unless you have your pistol on your person at all times (if you have a conceal and carry permit, you likely have it with you more than most would, but there will still be times that you will be unarmed), it will probably not help you very much except in a very small number of scenarios, all of which will assume that you are in a position to draw and fire the gun or that your opponent is unarmed and will either back down at the sight of the gun or will be at a disadvantage for lack of having one themselves.

Certainly the fact that you have a pistol and practice regularly will stack the deck in your favor in those situations to which it applies.

I am well trained in a sword art and if I had to defend myself with my sword, chances are that my opponent would end up dismembered. However, I do not carry my sword with me at all times or even most times, either inside or outside of my home.

Daniel

 

[Kframe]

Daniel and JKS, if they arnt really training you for realisitc self defense, then what system does? Is there any thing on the market that can truely prepare someone for violent encounters out side of the military? Hell im a long way from being able to join them, and thats if my wife lets me lol.

What im taking away from this, is that none of them prepare you for violent encounters. JKS9199 You say that for fitness and weight loss my plan is good,but for self defense it needs correcting. What aspects should i correct? That is what im trying to ask. Short of going to a bar and randomly picking fights im not sure what else i need to be looking at for training.

From what i gather, most tmas teach you to punch and kick and various throws and take downs and maybe some grappling. Im going to be learning all of those things as well at the gym im going to. So that leaves mindset and awaredness correct? As well as application of what ive learned.

So please, what do i need to correct? What aspect needs changing, and what it boils down to, is who gets my money?

Edit to add. Im getting the feeling, im close to understanding what your talking about jks9199. Im just not putting it all together. I have read your link, and re read your statements. Im missing something

 

[jks9199]

You have to understand the nature of real violence as compared to dueling/sport contests and status contests or "Monkey Dances." Real violence happens closer, faster, harder, and more suddenly than you expect. What you described as your last "fight" was really a Monkey Dance, I'd say. A real predator, especially, isn't going to give you a chance to defend before you get hit.

Lots of martial arts have good physical techniques and principles that can be used to defend yourself. But they have to be trained in the proper way to produce those skills. Sparring, for example, is lousy training for handling a real violent attack, except for a few narrow aspects.

You're currently working from a fantasy perception of violence (and I'd say that even goes for your pistol work... do you practice drawing from concealment, shooting from awkward positions, low or no light, with winter gloves on, while moving, and so on?). Your perception is shaped by a few grade school fights, by tv, movies, and popular entertainment, and by what you're hearing from family and friends. IT'S NORMAL TO BE SCREWED UP ABOUT REAL VIOLENCE! Thankfully, most of us in the US today don't face real violence often.

 

[Kframe]

I see, so the techniques are there but its the training that needs to be modified. When you say sparring is not good, except for a narrow set of circumstances, how then do you get realistic training? Training techniques with out resisting opponents isnt good right? So then the question becomes, how to train with a resisting opponent that will help with learning self defense.

So no matter which system i choose, how do incorparate realisitic training ontop of the bag work and pad work and jujitsu rolling?

When it comes to my pistol, i practice drawing from concealment often times over the day when im not at work. I also practice shooting in the winter time with gloves on. I dont get as much work on awkward positions and low light as i like.

So, now i know i need to modify my training, to be more realistic. How might that be done? What tips do you have that i can incorparte into my training, seeing as sparring will be innefective. Im getting the feeling here JKS9199 that many schools dont teach people how to deal with real encounters. Even tho they claim to be teaching self defense.

Man i didnt think it would get this complicated trying to figure out a training strategy.

Edit to add. I dont know if my last fight was a monkey dance. There plan was to hog tie me to a tree and then beat me till they got bored....

 

[Kframe]

JKS9199. I appreciate your comments. I dont mean to keep asking questions. I want to do this right. I really didnt know that most schools and so called self defense courses didnt really prepare you for self defense. I would have gone to the mma gym with out ever incorperating the proper training i need to be effective. So, now that you opened my eyes, i have many many questions.

 

[Kframe]

I just wanted to add my fathers self defense experiance. He learned tkd from the ymca. Has no idea what federation it was, nor does he care. He has used his several times, including one multi attacker mugging in which he came out on top. From what i know of his training, his teacher had his class fighting each other and guys from korea all the time. I dont know if his teacher did much "realistic" training or not. Tho considering what happend and how he handled them id say he did ok. What are your opinions on this? Was it a lucky fluke, or did he luck out and get a fantastic teacher? Sadly that man is nolonger teaching. I still love watching him do his different katas that he does from time to time.

In my thoughts im drawing heavily from his experiances as well.

Of course he may just be a seriously tough person lol, who learned well and applied well.