You ever just get fed up with MA arguments?

[Andy Moynihan]

Hey, zDom, no listen, I wasn't directing any of that *at* you (or anyone)---or putting you `on trial'. What I'm really interested in is the dynamics of the discussion and how often they seem to go that route---and what there is about the topic that causes people to get into these kinds of struggles with each other. I don't think it's just different styles of personality---it seems to happen in MA discussions very often. I just have the feeling that there's something about the topic itself that causes people's reactions to flare up, and then make excessively strong statements, and then other find those statements unfounded or irrational as well as offensive, and off we go...

I *agree* with you that the fact that you've never seen X hardly means that
X couldn't happen. But what interests me is that when people get on this particular topic they often appeal to such arguments in a kind of stubborn desperateness to get their point across, because it's really important to them---I suspect, anyway---to defend their conception of fight strategy. It's an issue very close to where we all live, in a way, at least to the extent that we take MA seriously---for at least some people, it has to do with how they feel about their own martial art, the need to make it clear to others (and themselves too, maybe) that they chose correctly in what to study, that they haven't been wasting their time all these years. My own guess is that that's where a lot of the heat in the argument comes from.

I just had a similar insight:

In reference to the point of contention where people who have never formally competed have nonetheless used their skills to survive: Over and above the obvious irritation that would be felt at someone wishing them to "prove" what they already know worked where it mattered, I wonder........Having to stop a live threat for real has got to be, for most people, potentially an intense and possibly traumatic experience. it being outside the norm of the average "comfort zone". Taken to extremes such as being subjected to constant conditions such as warfare a person can end up with PTSD.

I wonder could such a person's emotions be fueled by such an incident as to how vehemently the position is defended/the fellow from the sports crowd is ridiculed? I noticed this once listening to an ex combat veteran showing someone a technique on an informal basis, and it seemed to me
that he was insistent to a greater degree than i notice from other MAists that THIS was the WAY the MOVE was DONE because it SAVED his LIFE and that was all there was to it.

Could this be a factor and if so, is it going unrecognized?

Am I bonkers or might i have something here?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

The problem is that they are trying to get the approval others. As long as you are going into training with a open mind, you can never go wrong. Trying to impress others is a long and cold journey. Just having a good attitude does more for your martial arts than the particular style you are training in at that time. Even if this person who is trying to 1-up you beats you in a fight, they still have to live with all of that anger and they have inside of them. The attitude they have will lead them on a path of constant battles, with no winner. While you are happy doing your individual thing, they are going around trying to prove something to everyone else, to me that makes them the looser.
These type of people are angry, arrogant, feel empty inside, and more than likely dont know why.

*PRECISELY* the case with the person whose story I opened up with, I'm dead certain. Good post

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I think it's proof that people should stick to the topic, especially when repeatedly asked.

'Sokay, I got sentries posted in hidden locations THIS time :

 

[tradrockrat]

You're not bonkers at all. I agree with you, but I don't think that it covers the whole issue.

I feel that a very real issue is the fact that we must believe that what we know works. It's a part of training to believe in our ability. However, we live in a society where there is a very real chance of never needing these skills to survive. As a result, students are being taught by people who never had to fight to survive, and they may have been taught by someone who has never had to fight to survive either. That requires a lot of faith and trust in your techniques (perhaps this is a root of the infamous MMA/TMA issue). So when someone challenges your very fundamentals, they are challenging your very SD identity, and if MA is a large part of who you are - that translates to challenging your very identity as a person. People take it as a personal attack.

Now imagine that the person "attacked" has that tiny bit of doubt every rational person has for something untested. Is it so hard to understand the tendency to attack back to defend ones style?

JMHO and a little pop psychology

 

[Carol]

So when someone challenges your very fundamentals, they are challenging your very SD identity, and if MA is a large part of who you are - that translates to challenging your very identity as a person. People take it as a personal attack.

Now imagine that the person "attacked" has that tiny bit of doubt every rational person has for something untested. Is it so hard to understand the tendency to attack back to defend ones style?

And sometimes an attack doesn't have to be verbal.

There is an underlying sentiment that what one does with their art can help or hurt their art. And when someone sees someone else doing something with their art the see as harmful, this is processed as an attack on their MA identity....and thus....a personal attack.

Many Martial Artists are passionate people which may by default make us more sensitive to thinking something is a personal attack.

But it's that passion that keeps us going and keeps us training. It's bad enough having an occasinal uncommitted training partner on the mat...if all of our styles were full of bland, disintrested mopes I don't think training would be any fun at all.

So, personally, some stuff I just walk away from. Other stuff I run away from

I keep my friends close and my enemies bickering :rofl:

 

[Hand Sword]

Do I, or we ever?

I guess not. These threads and arguments keep appearing and we keep spending time responding to them.

 

[exile]

You're not bonkers at all. I agree with you, but I don't think that it covers the whole issue.

I feel that a very real issue is the fact that we must believe that what we know works. It's a part of training to believe in our ability. However, we live in a society where there is a very real chance of never needing these skills to survive. As a result, students are being taught by people who never had to fight to survive, and they may have been taught by someone who has never had to fight to survive either. That requires a lot of faith and trust in your techniques (perhaps this is a root of the infamous MMA/TMA issue). So when someone challenges your very fundamentals, they are challenging your very SD identity, and if MA is a large part of who you are - that translates to challenging your very identity as a person. People take it as a personal attack.

Now imagine that the person "attacked" has that tiny bit of doubt every rational person has for something untested. Is it so hard to understand the tendency to attack back to defend ones style?

JMHO and a little pop psychology

Yes... this is almost certainly where that persistent underlying doubt that we all seem to have is coming from. I went to undergraduate and graduate school in Manhatten at a time when NY was a much more menacing place than it is now and I had a number of very ugly and dangerous confrontations which I came home from safe and sound, not because of any MA I did at the time, but because I travelled well-armed---the centerpiece being a motorcycle chain with big inch-and-a-half links which I rigged up with a quick-release knot and wore as a belt. Displaying it and explaining what I might have to do with it had a very calming effect on a few people who otherwise would have been really bad antagonists. But after I'd left the City I began to feel a bit troubled that I had had to rely for my safety on that and a few other pieces of equipment I carried which might at any time not be available to me. So for a long time I was interested in taking up martial arts, and much much later in my life started on TKD. But I'd never had to rely on TKD in those earlier confrontations, so there was always that question---would it have been as effective as my bike chain had been? So that's the kind of mindset that's all primed to lash back at the kind of dismissal of TKD, and most karate styles as well, that you see on bullshido.com and other boards like that, but at the same time to wonder, could those guys be right?

But compare that situation to the one with some South Korean guy who was trained in TKD in the ROK army and fought with the Black Tigers in the Korean War and/or the White Tigers in Vietnam, who used TKD as a unquestionably effective battle tool, and who knew firsthand just what his training could do in the crunch---imagine what *that* guy would be thinking if he read the same stuff on those kinds of `everything but reality-based is trash' types of boards. He might have the reaction Andrew M. described in his previous post, but I'm more inclined to think he'd probably laugh his head off. If you genuinely know you stuff is good, the way that guy would, then you really don't need to argue; you have all the proof you need.

The fact is, most of us, as you say, rarely or never have to use our training to protect ourselves or our families. That's good---but it does probably explain this constant fear that in the crunch, we haven't learned what we really want to believe we've learned. So the hair-trigger reaction kicks in in these kinds of disputes... I guess there's really nothing to be done about it, eh?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Yes... this is almost certainly where that persistent underlying doubt that we all seem to have is coming from. I went to undergraduate and graduate school in Manhatten at a time when NY was a much more menacing place than it is now and I had a number of very ugly and dangerous confrontations which I came home from safe and sound, not because of any MA I did at the time, but because I travelled well-armed---the centerpiece being a motorcycle chain with big inch-and-a-half links which I rigged up with a quick-release knot and wore as a belt. Displaying it and explaining what I might have to do with it had a very calming effect on a few people who otherwise would have been really bad antagonists. But after I'd left the City I began to feel a bit troubled that I had had to rely for my safety on that and a few other pieces of equipment I carried which might at any time not be available to me. So for a long time I was interested in taking up martial arts, and much much later in my life started on TKD. But I'd never had to rely on TKD in those earlier confrontations, so there was always that question---would it have been as effective as my bike chain had been? So that's the kind of mindset that's all primed to lash back at the kind of dismissal of TKD, and most karate styles as well, that you see on bullshido.com and other boards like that, but at the same time to wonder, could those guys be right?

But compare that situation to the one with some South Korean guy who was trained in TKD in the ROK army and fought with the Black Tigers in the Korean War and/or the White Tigers in Vietnam, who used TKD as a unquestionably effective battle tool, and who knew firsthand just what his training could do in the crunch---imagine what *that* guy would be thinking if he read the same stuff on those kinds of `everything but reality-based is trash' types of boards. He might have the reaction Andrew M. described in his previous post, but I'm more inclined to think he'd probably laugh his head off. If you genuinely know you stuff is good, the way that guy would, then you really don't need to argue; you have all the proof you need.

The fact is, most of us, as you say, rarely or never have to use our training to protect ourselves or our families. That's good---but it does probably explain this constant fear that in the crunch, we haven't learned what we really want to believe we've learned. So the hair-trigger reaction kicks in in these kinds of disputes... I guess there's really nothing to be done about it, eh?

WUH-oh---people only use my full first name when I'm in trouble....

Anyhow I already repped you once tonite but wanted to sayt great post just the same.

I think we might actually be makin' headway here.

 

[exile]

Hey Andrew---

You're not in any trouble, amigo! (And notice, it wasn't your complete full name I used...)

Thanks for the rep---and yes, I do hope we're getting somewhere figuring this out. Because it's really been bugging me for a long time just why we keep seeing these firefights arising on this particular kind of issue between people who---if they were face-to-face with the other person and could read the non-threatening voice and face cues that would probably be there---would probably find they liked and enjoyed talking with each other. But there's this coiled-spring reaction... and that's something the Internet medium doesn't help with.

 

[zDom]

Some really great points made.

I've generated more than my share of text in the last couple of days so I'll just leave it at that: some really nice ideas, presented very well.

(salute)

 

[Carol]

Some really great points made.

I've generated more than my share of text in the last couple of days so I'll just leave it at that: some really nice ideas, presented very well.

(salute)

Aww, don't say that zDom. We can never have text generation from good posters like you.

 

[exile]

Aww, don't say that zDom. We can never have text generation from good posters like you.

Hey, zDom, I'm with Carol---don't go silent, this is a good, timely topic, and I've never seen it addressed directly this way before, and we need everyone who's thought about it to keep with it.

 

[zDom]

Thanks Carol, Exile -- but really, some of those ideas were so on-point I really don't have anything to add at this time.

Plenty to chew on and think about for awhile, though

Like, having identified the reasons we get so fired up over these issues, can we then use that knowledge to defuse our emotional response?

I practice hapkido: I'm supposed to be austere, stoic.

 

[exile]

Thanks Carol, Exile -- but really, some of those ideas were so on-point I really don't have anything to add at this time.

Plenty to chew on and think about for awhile, though

Like, having identified the reasons we get so fired up over these issues, can we then use that knowledge to defuse our emotional response?

Yes, exactly! That's the ultimate goal of this sort of group introspection, in a way. We can---what's the phrase?---lead by example once we get a really sharp sense of where this insecurity so many of us are encumbered with comes from---and how self-defeating it is.

I practice hapkido: I'm supposed to be austere, stoic.

Sure, and that's good---but everything in moderation, eh? I mean, who wants to be austere and stoic all the time? That surely wouldn't be healthy ;-)

 

[cfr]

For what it's worth, bro, I did try to come back and post an answer in the spirit of your original question once I understood.

I was tryin' to help you out there but it seemed 'twas not to be.

I did see that and I do appreciate it.

 

[Rich Parsons]

To be honest if I were asking that question and I was serious, which I was not, I would be better of asking how many physical confrontations have you been in. And also to be honest the answer, any answer is meaningless. The various incarnations of a fight make it so. If the answer was none then what does that mean, possibly that they are a better martial artist than I if you base your answer on Sun Tzu Bing Fa. If the answer was 100s then did you win them all and if you did were you the aggressor or the victim and why couldn’t you avoid hundreds of fights, if you will allow the use of the word fight. And are you better than me just because I have had fewer or no fights.

There is a long story from old China about 2 students of the same teacher that I will not go into the entire thing here. Basically student 1 went around looking for people to fight and eventually landed in prison for killing someone. When he was released he still wanted to prove he was best and sought out his former classmate who many said was very good. After several attempts to get his former classmate to fight finally he attacked his former classmate forcing him to fight. His former classmate avoided his attacks and his only attack was a light touch on the Cheek of his attacker. At this point the attacker stopped realizing he could have easily been defeated just because of a light touch on his cheek. So whom is the better fighter the one that fought a lot or the one that avoided the fights?

If you want a straight dictionary definition and that is what I tend to go with, although I am willing to admit an argument can easily made that the definition of a fight is subjective, I give you the following.

Fight

1.
a.To attempt to harm or gain power over an adversary by blows or with weapons.
b.Sports. To engage in boxing or wrestling.
2.To engage in a quarrel; argue: They are always fighting about money.
3.To strive vigorously and resolutely: fought against graft; fighting for her rights.

v.tr.

1.
a.To contend with physically or in battle.
b.To wage or carry on (a battle).
c.To contend for, by or as if by combat: “I now resolved that Calais should be fought to the death” (Winston S. Churchill).

2.
a.Sports. To box or wrestle against in a ring.
b.To participate in (a boxing match, for example).

3. To set (a boxer, for example) in combat with another..

4. To contend with or struggle against: fight cancer; fight temptation.

5. To try to prevent the development or success of.

6. To make (one's way) by struggle or striving: fought my way to the top.

n.

1. A confrontation between opposing groups in which each attempts to harm or gain power over the other, as with bodily force or weapons.

2. A quarrel or conflict.

3.
a. A physical conflict between two or more individuals.
b. Sports. A boxing or wrestling match.

4. A struggle to achieve an objective..

5. The power or inclination to fight; pugnacity: I just didn't have any fight left in me.

Xue Sheng,

Thank you for your reply. I like it. In the end all depends upon the individual interpretation and effect it had on the individual. For even if one looks at the definition from a dictionary, you can see how many interpretations can be seen from the same event.

Thanks

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Wow!

I was avoiding this thread 'cause I was sure it was going to end up being yet another of those arguments the thread was against.

It was a pleasant surprise to read what has been said here.

Jeff

 

[tradrockrat]

Now all we need is to find some fixes. The question has already been asked - Can we use this knowledge to fix the problem?

My answer is yes and it's the only way to fix the problem. We have to be empathetic to others and aware of our own tendencies to lash out.

how can we do this, do you think?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Wow!

I was avoiding this thread 'cause I was sure it was going to end up being yet another of those arguments the thread was against.

It was a pleasant surprise to read what has been said here.

Jeff

Sure it WAS but now you show up with you inflammatory post... and it is NOT a pleasant surprise :uhyeah:

Hows it going Jeff

And I too have been equally surprised.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Now all we need is to find some fixes. The question has already been asked - Can we use this knowledge to fix the problem?

My answer is yes and it's the only way to fix the problem. We have to be empathetic to others and aware of our own tendencies to lash out.

how can we do this, do you think?

A cage fight?

But seriously, it would be hard to stop these arguments from occurring. People have a tendency to think what they do is the best. Not everyone does though. That assuredness in what one does usually softens with maturity.

So wait till the ones making the arguments(on both sides) to grow up then listen to the next batch?

Jeff