You ever just get fed up with MA arguments?
- Thread starter Andy Moynihan
- Start date
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
You see you show you in a perfectly calm thread that is a very good discussion and you start a fight
Sorry to all, back to the post.
tradrockrat said:
I wish I could say yes, but it is doubtful.
I have tried to be empathetic, heck I even went to a MMA school to check it out to get a better perspective and the people there were great. It is online I see these arguments occur. I have never been in a TMA vs. MMA argument with anyone out here in the real world, It is always a great conversation.
Yes---gotta be possible!
Yes tenfold!
I've been wondering this same thing. One thing I think that works is the `deep breath' approach. You see a post which looks like someone is an angry or aggressive frame of mind and it's easy to think, just avoid this---don't reply (isn't this an exact analogue for the MA advice we're always getting and giving---best way to be safe is to avoid dangerous places in the first place if at all possible?) The real problem that we saw from the first thread that this is the descendent of is that the conflict begins imperceptibly and goes in stages till all of a sudden you realize the point of no return has been passed. Once you get to that stage, it's not possible to recover, in most cases. So the trick is to stop it before it gets into the red zone.
You mention empathy---emotional imagination; what is the other person there thinking, what are they reacting to in what I said---and that is a big, big part of it. The other part is the followup. A kind of deliberate dropping of intensity and downshifting be a signal to the other guy that no, I'm not looking for a fight---maybe we really do disagree and maybe we are closer than we think, but I'm willing to back off a bit and hereby invite you to do the same, so that we can keep talking. The initial assumption has to be that the other person means well. This kind of approach isn't going to work in a hostile bar situation, but then MT isn't that kind of establishment---I think of it as more of a cozy neighborhood pub. The regulars in places like that get on pretty well usually, even when they really do disagree about substance...
You know me Xue, I just sow discord wherever I go!You see you show you in a perfectly calm thread that is a very good discussion and you start a fight
Sorry to all, back to the post.
[/I]
I wish I could say yes, but it is doubtful.
I have tried to be empathetic, heck I even went to a MMA school to check it out to get a better perspective and the people there were great. It is online I see these arguments occur. I have never been in a TMA vs. MMA argument with anyone out here in the real world, It is always a great conversation.
But back on topic.
Outside the internet, the only arguments similar to this I saw or was involved with was the groundfighting/standing ones. At it became pretty clear quickly that both were good and it was a great idea to have a good grounding in both. Maybe something like that will eventually happen in this argument.
Jeff
tradrockrat
2nd Black Belt
Well I have an idea that I've avoided saying before now out of fear that it wasn't the right time, but has anyone ever - and I mean EVER - seen an actual apology standing alone by itself in these threads? I don't mean the "sorry you're an idiot" responses or the "I'm sorry you feel that way but you're still wrong."
I mean the genuine - "I'm sorry that what I said upset you and I am sorry that I didn't state my views better. Please forgive me for sounding harsh and aggressive."
That's part of the empathy side of the equation. Recognize when you steped over the line a little and apologize for it - even if the other guy was worse. We all know to do this, but we don't for some reason.
another thing - the "big breath" idea works both ways - you see a post that pisses you off - don't reply for ten minutes, write your reply on MSword first, something! See, words online can't be taken back, but there is no real consequence for saying them as opposed to very real risk of reprisal face to face contains so we often - me included for sure - don't use that all important social skill - the filter. I calll it OTM, OTM - On The Mind, Out The Mouth
We often write what we think when we would never SAY what we think. and you all are right - once it goes to far, you can't get it back
just some ideas and observations
I mean the genuine - "I'm sorry that what I said upset you and I am sorry that I didn't state my views better. Please forgive me for sounding harsh and aggressive."
That's part of the empathy side of the equation. Recognize when you steped over the line a little and apologize for it - even if the other guy was worse. We all know to do this, but we don't for some reason.
another thing - the "big breath" idea works both ways - you see a post that pisses you off - don't reply for ten minutes, write your reply on MSword first, something! See, words online can't be taken back, but there is no real consequence for saying them as opposed to very real risk of reprisal face to face contains so we often - me included for sure - don't use that all important social skill - the filter. I calll it OTM, OTM - On The Mind, Out The Mouth
We often write what we think when we would never SAY what we think. and you all are right - once it goes to far, you can't get it back
just some ideas and observations
Tradrocket---yes, I have (on very rare occasions) seen posts along those lines, and what I find interesting now you mention it is that I can't think of a single occasion when it seemed to me that the person offering the apology really had sounded harsh and aggressive. Maybe a little carried away, but not in the red zone.
The person who is willing to stand down is very often empathetic enough to be willing to anticipate an overreaction from the other guy and secure enough to be willing to risk losing a bit of face by offering an apology. The funny side is that if the apology is sincere, the impression that you're left with isn't one of humiliation but of graciousness.
Very true---the same thing comes out in peoples' driving behavior. Road rage is a luxury we can allow ourselves because we're safe alone in our cars, not standing in line somewhere with the other person.
Your comments above about writing out your response first as a separate file points to another interesting thing about all this: if you don't send off your first offended, irritated response but sit on it for a while, it usually doesn't take long to cool down. This has happened to me a lot email exchanges with certain colleagues of mine at work. Sometimes I've looked back at some of these files and asked myself what I could possibly have been thinking even comtemplating sending something so hostile out. So you're right---letting off steam harmlessly is a great trick.
But there really is a huge amount of freefloating anger around...
zDom
Senior Master
Exactly.
I get along great with the local MMA guys. According to the latest e-mail from the guy operating the local MMA club and that recently hooked up with Miletich, they enjoy my martial art columns in which I discuss MMA (I write for a newspaper and do a MA column about once per month).
I am seriously thinking of (if my HKD instructor doesn't mind) occasionally visiting to roll around on the mat with them following my next rank advancement test to increase my level of comfort on the ground.
Andy,
Once again, great post. My apologies to those who I've offended. For me, real world self defense is when you are being hunted, and toyed with, by a group of criminals who are not only preying upon you and your loved ones, but the entire community as well. I'm not sure that it's possible to accurately simulate the simultaneous sensations of feeling like you're going to puke, piss yourself, and crap yourself when your life's not on the line so I see the idea of that being possible as extremely dangerous. I think that everything you posted, that I replied to in the other thread, is either dismissed, or ignored, by those who see martial arts as a way to impose your will upon an unwilling person.
From the behavior of the troublemaking crowd, considering that they often remind people that they are not interested in self defense, only fighting, and that, not only have they sought out unwilling participants in the past by using insults and challenges, that they intend to continue doing so with pride, makes it appear as if they relish the idea of hunting unwilling, fully resisting people for the sake of proving themselves. That doesn't sit well with me. As someone who needs to be able to study MA, the last thing I want is to have people with criminal mindsets pretending to represent me or anyone else in the MA community.
Considering that your past can be reviewed when determining whether you were defending yourself, or whether you just wanted to kill someone, training in any style that actively hunts unwilling participants seems like a guaranteed conviction and/or lawsuit against you if you ever really need to defend yourself. My experience has proven to me that the last thing you want to do is to give the predators any reason to either call in reinforcements, or to feel threatened. You start showing, or even hinting, that you can defend yourself and you just fell from the frying pan and into the fire. The absolute last thing you want to do with a real sociopathic killer is to truly believe that you can overcome them with violence.
You start thinking that and you're going to get yourself, or your loved ones, killed. Real self defense is about all of the non-physical stuff that every TMA teaches. Police don't use negotiators for nothing. In my case, even when I had managed to hunt the ones responsible down, and had their personal information, I fully cooperated with the police, tied the ******************** (wonderful, but misunderstood, people) to several crimes that were occuring in the area, and let the police deal with it. If I had acted without the police, the crimes wouldn't have necessarily stopped, my family could've become statistics, and the community wouldn't have been any safer for it.
Another thing to consider with regards to the "Ultimate Fighter" mindset is that criminals usually know how to work the system a lot better than your average joe. All they need to do is get you to attack them with your "deadly moves", get you behind bars, and then have fun with your family. They can even see to it that you get killed behind bars. In short, don't allow some false confidence in physical techniques to allow these situations to happen.
As far as the whole "what's the most effective method, or style, of defending yourself in a real situation" debate goes, anything that teaches, and conditions, you to be able to rapidly calm and center yourself under severe conditions is going to allow you to think clearly. Thinking clearly, acting responsibly, and speaking wisely is what is going to get it done at the end of the day. Sorry for not stating these things more calmly before. I just don't want to see people getting killed because they choose to listen to the troublemaking crowd.
Hope this helps to clarify my position a little.
Have a nice day/night all,
Fu Bag
Ybot
Blue Belt
Don't do it grappling is incredibly addictive, and sure they offer the first class for free, but next thing you know they're charging you outragious prices and... well, you find yourself paying them. I know from personal experience...
Ybot
Blue Belt
Anyway, I like this thread and like that your looking for ways to respond with empathy. I agree that that is the key. I took a personal communication class in college, and though I found the instructor was into a lot of new agey self help crap there was good stuff that I could take from the class and try to put into practice.
My suggestions for dealing with someone who is getting passionate about some arguement or another:
A lot of times they continue repeating arguements because they feel they were not heard the first time. This is where empathy comes in, and actually reading what they are saying and trying to process it before replying. Try to start your reply with something you agree with in their argument.
Ex. "Oh, I see what you mean by X, I can see how that would really help my traing..." etc.
Next you adress what you don't agree with, but in a way that shows them that you read what they wrote and actually thought it over. This is done by quickly summerizing there argument as best as you understood it, empathizing that you can see where they are coming from, but...
Ex. " I kinda see what you mean about Y being the case, but in my experience Z is what usually happens..."
And then you can always end with the pre-emptive appology...
Ex. "Anyway, I could be wrong...", "Or maybe I didn't understand what you meant..."
Another strategy would be to try to redirect them in another direction through questioning. Again, I find people like to be heard, so if you re-state their main points as you understand them first, claim their intresting (even if their not), and then redirect by asking their specific oppinion about something that you might actually be intrested in...
Ex. "Oh, so you think that by doing X, Y will happen. That's intresting. But what do you think of Z..."
Anyway, that's my take. I actually like debate, and think it is a good thing as long as we actually take in what everyone is saying, then step back and consider it before responding.
My suggestions for dealing with someone who is getting passionate about some arguement or another:
A lot of times they continue repeating arguements because they feel they were not heard the first time. This is where empathy comes in, and actually reading what they are saying and trying to process it before replying. Try to start your reply with something you agree with in their argument.
Ex. "Oh, I see what you mean by X, I can see how that would really help my traing..." etc.
Next you adress what you don't agree with, but in a way that shows them that you read what they wrote and actually thought it over. This is done by quickly summerizing there argument as best as you understood it, empathizing that you can see where they are coming from, but...
Ex. " I kinda see what you mean about Y being the case, but in my experience Z is what usually happens..."
And then you can always end with the pre-emptive appology...
Ex. "Anyway, I could be wrong...", "Or maybe I didn't understand what you meant..."
Another strategy would be to try to redirect them in another direction through questioning. Again, I find people like to be heard, so if you re-state their main points as you understand them first, claim their intresting (even if their not), and then redirect by asking their specific oppinion about something that you might actually be intrested in...
Ex. "Oh, so you think that by doing X, Y will happen. That's intresting. But what do you think of Z..."
Anyway, that's my take. I actually like debate, and think it is a good thing as long as we actually take in what everyone is saying, then step back and consider it before responding.
zDom
Senior Master
I love a good debate, too.
But some people you just can't have a reasonable debate with.
I mean, for example, how do you discuss ANYTHING with someone who declares the only proof they will accept is to see it on their favorite TV show?
There are plenty of people who are knowledgable and reasonable on this subject matter, so I think the best thing for me will be to seek them out and ignore those who are unreasonable.
But some people you just can't have a reasonable debate with.
I mean, for example, how do you discuss ANYTHING with someone who declares the only proof they will accept is to see it on their favorite TV show?
There are plenty of people who are knowledgable and reasonable on this subject matter, so I think the best thing for me will be to seek them out and ignore those who are unreasonable.
Haze
Blue Belt
TMA, MMA, is only as good as the artist.
My thing is the back and forth about "should we have a belt system?"
Your rank is only good in your org.
Have it if you want it.
Don't have it if you don't want it.
It makes no difference to anyone but those that are in your org.
The trueth is outside of your dojo or Assoc. your rank is nothing but a piece of paper.
Now,,,,,,,,,, Lets stop arguing and fight,,,or I mean TRAIN,,,, yea that's what I mean
My thing is the back and forth about "should we have a belt system?"
Your rank is only good in your org.
Have it if you want it.
Don't have it if you don't want it.
It makes no difference to anyone but those that are in your org.
The trueth is outside of your dojo or Assoc. your rank is nothing but a piece of paper.
Now,,,,,,,,,, Lets stop arguing and fight,,,or I mean TRAIN,,,, yea that's what I mean
Edmund BlackAdder
<B>Rabid Wolverine</B>
I got tired of the dead horse arguments along time ago. Some people however, seem to rejoice in them.
Edmund BlackAdder
<B>Rabid Wolverine</B>
Elayna
Green Belt
I agree Edmund...
Dead horse anyone???
I mean please everything you guys are talking about has been said and done I dont know how many times.
TMA and MMA are 2 tottaly different things. Its like trying to convince a Catholic to be a Muslim. I mean...LOL....kinda unlikely no matter how much you kick and scream.
So try and talk about something productive that will benefit everyone.
That would really be a good conversation to read.
Anyways...best of luck guys.
Dead horse anyone???
I mean please everything you guys are talking about has been said and done I dont know how many times.
TMA and MMA are 2 tottaly different things. Its like trying to convince a Catholic to be a Muslim. I mean...LOL....kinda unlikely no matter how much you kick and scream.
So try and talk about something productive that will benefit everyone.
That would really be a good conversation to read.
Anyways...best of luck guys.
OP
OP
Yeah but how do we get rid of 'em so that the real work on healing the rift can start getting done around here( "here" meaning the MA community in general, not just MT)?
How about just agreeing to ignore any post whose message can be boiled down to `MA (style) X is better than MA (style) Y'? (where `better' is taken to mean `more street-effective'/`possesses greater resources'/`easier to learn'/etc.) Isn't that line of argument the main stable for the dead horses no one wants?
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
You know I used that "Beating a dead horse" thing in one of these type posts and it was completely ignored. But you have a good idea here.
As for the original question
You ever just get fed up with MA arguments? More than you know
See ya
