Martial art A vs. Martial Art B... here we go again...and again... and again...

[MJS]

Because the way an art is taught is often inherent to the art, it is an institutional issue.

If I went to 100 or 1000 BJJ schools, I'm going to see many of the same things in each and every one of them. Why? Because, by and large, the instructors in these schools are teaching the way they were taught.

Same for TKD schools, Wing Chun schools and all of the rest.

I'm not sure what you mean here, MJS. I just don't think I'm tracking you. I'm not basing anything on YouTube. Once again, I picked TKD only because there have been so many threads here about McDojos and whatnot that I thought it would be good to illustrate my point... that within the TKD community there are many people who have self-identified this as an issue. The bujinkan and the wing chun communities have done the same.

I'm not talking about what people outside the art think.Okay, sure. I can understand this. I'm talking on a much broader scale. If a style has identified core skills and abilities that are being promised to students, but only a very few actually get these skills and abilities, there is a problem. I'm not talking day to day training. And I'm not talking about looking at videos on YouTube.

Once again, if a style purports to teach self-defense, can students actually do so after 1 year? 5 years? 10 years? If not, isn't that a problem? If someone has no physical or mental health issues that preclude exercise, and trains in a style 3 to 4 times each week for some predictable amount of time, will that person ACTUALLY be able to do the things promised in the brochure?

Hey Steve,

Yeah, sounds like there may be a misunderstanding here. Let me attempt to clarify. If I've been following this correctly, you feel that its the art, not the student, and I feel its the student, not the art. Am I correct? If so, what led me to say what I did, was your post about BJJ. I would say that BJJ has higher standards than your typical art. So, if thats the case, chances are, it'll probably produce higher quality students.

You could have other arts, in which the teachers are great, but still within that same art, you could have teachers that suck. The good teachers will produce quality students, while the lousy teachers will produce subpar students.

This is why I said its the student, not the art.

 

[wushuguy]

This is very interesting, from my take on it, it's a mix of both the ability of the practitioners of the style and how defunct the style has become due to various reasons.

So, some styles become more popular and have to lend itself for the vast populations to join in, then it becomes more defunct as more of those people join and the majority of teachers eventually need to lower expectations to keep students interested and "progressing" or the teachers see the cash cow and change the style to adapt.

Martial arts isn't for everyone who just wants to do it or look good, etc. but for it to be good, one has to have the heart and proper training and diligence and experience. So as long as instructors continue to cater to the masses in the name of "spreading their art far and wide", then the art's true capability will eventually be lost, perhaps to the extent as to not be able to recover its former appearance again...

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Well since I do not live outside of the USA I would have to say 100% of it is based on the USA.

I do not doubt things are different elsewhere and I do not doubt what you are saying but does your school and/or the other TKD schools near you teach joint locking, take downs, close in fighting and strikes outside of the point zone?


And lastly I have to be more careful as to what example I use, I REALLY do not want to make this about TKD.

Yes, joint locking, takedowns, close in fighting are all heavily involved in our curriculum and as we spar to knock our opponent out and not for points we certainly learn to execute and defend against strikes outside the points zone. To be honest, I wouldnt even know how the point system works in olympic tkd sparring as Ive never done it and have never been taught it. And as I said earlier, this goes for almost all tkd clubs in my area. I have no problem whatsoever with sport tkd and its extremely popular and a great sport for kids to get into BUT it is only one form of tkd. I did a quick check in the yellow pages last night and it seems the clubs training the sport version of tkd are a lot harder to find around here and none of them claimed to teach self defence, they actaully advertise that they teach the sport aspect of tkd. As I said in a previous post, I really feel sorry for tkdists over there based on what you have said.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Ive alaways found it strange that the average person looking at getting into martial arts does very little "shopping around" before they make a choice and I think mcdojos can prey on this. Generally before most people purchase something they jump all over the net comparing products and prices and reading numerous reviews before making an informed decision. With martial arts, however, people usually just join the club thats just up the road and dont even know the difference between tkd and karate or bjj and kung fu, I certainly know I didnt. I was no different, I just joined the club up the road, I had no idea what tkd was, I just thought all martial arts were basically the same. Fortunately for me I joined a great club that teaches real self defence related tkd and all turned out well. But really, if someone wants to start in any martial art it doesnt take a great deal of research to learn how to avoid a mcdojo. On the other hand research can be misleading because if Id read a thread such as this prior to making my decision I would probably have never chosen tkd due to the generalisations based around the art. Basically, if people do their research prior to joining a club then they will become a very good martial artist irrespective of what art they choose and again thats why I believe its the artist not the art.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ive alaways found it strange that the average person looking at getting into martial arts does very little "shopping around" before they make a choice and I think mcdojos can prey on this. Generally before most people purchase something they jump all over the net comparing products and prices and reading numerous reviews before making an informed decision. With martial arts, however, people usually just join the club thats just up the road and dont even know the difference between tkd and karate or bjj and kung fu, I certainly know I didnt. I was no different, I just joined the club up the road, I had no idea what tkd was, I just thought all martial arts were basically the same. Fortunately for me I joined a great club that teaches real self defence related tkd and all turned out well. But really, if someone wants to start in any martial art it doesnt take a great deal of research to learn how to avoid a mcdojo. On the other hand research can be misleading because if Id read a thread such as this prior to making my decision I would probably have never chosen tkd due to the generalisations based around the art. Basically, if people do their research prior to joining a club then they will become a very good martial artist irrespective of what art they choose and again thats why I believe its the artist not the art.

Very true, but one has to take into consideration, at least on the left side of the Atlantic/Right Side of the Pacific , that the McDojos have the cash to advertise.

In my chosen area of MA, Chinese Martial arts, notoriously the people that are the real good teachers do not advertise. I know of 2 very good Wing Chun Schools that do not advertise, there are 3 by the way, and the worst had the biggest add campaign. My Taiji sifu does not advertise at all but my first sifu advertises a lot and has a huge school but these days he is a charlatan at best. My Sanda sifu does not advertise at all either. The best Aikido school in my area has a webpage, but that is it. A good Judo school is slowly vanishing and does not advertise. There are 2 JKD schools the one that is not to bad does not advertise.

But the big TKD and Karate schools advertise a lot and in my area, sadly, big does not mean better in MA.

So, at least in my area, to find the good schools it can mean a WHOLE lot of research, much more than the research one would need to do to compare products

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ive alaways found it strange that the average person looking at getting into martial arts does very little "shopping around" before they make a choice and I think mcdojos can prey on this.

People put more effort and research into the purchase of a television than they do a martial arts school, even one to which they are entrusting their kids.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

In my chosen area of MA, Chinese Martial arts, notoriously the people that are the real good teachers do not advertise. I know of 2 very good Wing Chun Schools that do not advertise, there are 3 by the way, and the worst had the biggest add campaign. My Taiji sifu does not advertise at all but my first sifu advertises a lot and has a huge school but these days he is a charlatan at best. My Sanda sifu does not advertise at all either. The best Aikido school in my area has a webpage, but that is it. A good Judo school is slowly vanishing and does not advertise. There are 2 JKD schools the one that is not to bad does not advertise.

But the big TKD and Karate schools advertise a lot and in my area, sadly, big does not mean better in MA.

So, at least in my area, to find the good schools it can mean a WHOLE lot of research, much more than the research one would need to do to compare products

I believe this is true in my area too, regardless of the art. To me the best training occurs when classes are small, so the instructor is able to give each student proper attention and corrections. My own teacher spent a lot of time just watching me punch the makiwara or shifting through stances. You simply just can't have that same attention to detail when you have a class of 20+ people, most of which are probably children.

McDojos generally have excellent facilities and equipment because they can afford them - actually, it's part of the marketing presentation. That said, they cannot have the same level of teaching excellence, even when there are multiple 'certified instructors' on the floor, because the assistants came up through the same deficient pedagogy.

 

[dancingalone]

People put more effort and research into the purchase of a television than they do a martial arts school, even one to which they are entrusting their kids.

Daniel

I've read through those martial arts school success packages. They say with probably good reason that people pick their schools by

1) location
2) price
3) training schedule

in that order.

 

[MJS]

Ive alaways found it strange that the average person looking at getting into martial arts does very little "shopping around" before they make a choice and I think mcdojos can prey on this. Generally before most people purchase something they jump all over the net comparing products and prices and reading numerous reviews before making an informed decision. With martial arts, however, people usually just join the club thats just up the road and dont even know the difference between tkd and karate or bjj and kung fu, I certainly know I didnt. I was no different, I just joined the club up the road, I had no idea what tkd was, I just thought all martial arts were basically the same. Fortunately for me I joined a great club that teaches real self defence related tkd and all turned out well. But really, if someone wants to start in any martial art it doesnt take a great deal of research to learn how to avoid a mcdojo. On the other hand research can be misleading because if Id read a thread such as this prior to making my decision I would probably have never chosen tkd due to the generalisations based around the art. Basically, if people do their research prior to joining a club then they will become a very good martial artist irrespective of what art they choose and again thats why I believe its the artist not the art.

LOL, I know, isnt that funny. Buy a car, house, you always go to look, test drive, etc. Likewise, I too, joined a school close by. I was young, parents thought it would be good for me to have an activity, thus, I ended up at the closest school to my house.

Then again, I like to give credit where its due, so if it wasnt for that school, I probably would never have had the chance to train and meet with all of the wonderful people that I do today. Now, ask me if, knowing what I know now, would I join up at that school? No.

 

[Twin Fist]

I said it before and I will say it again: One guy out there teaching cheese makes us all look cheesy a little bit by association.

so there is SOME point in calling out the flakes and frauds.

thats not style vs style so much, but that is part of it too.

 

[BloodMoney]

As someone who trains in multiple arts I often come into conflict with a student from one saying something about another. Ill get "Wing Chun kicks BJJ's ****" or "BJJ beats everything, look at the Gracies" etc...my answer? Well its hard, you can argue any point.

"Wing Chun kicks BJJ's ****" = "Not on the ground it doesnt!"
"BJJ beats everything, look at the Gracies" = What about multiple armed attackers?

etc

Every art has its strength and weaknesses, I respect all of them (maybe less respect for some of these modern, western "defense systems" some random guy just invented last week).

What most people dont understand that art vs art can only ever be philosophical. Anything else is down to the individual. Chun beats BJJ? Okay then clearly the Chun practitioner was better at Chun than the BJJ practitioner at BJJ, and vice versa. A **** Chun guy vs a black belt in BJJ is going to get his **** handed to him, a white belt in BJJ vs. a senior Chun practitioner will eat a whole lot of kicks well before he gets a takedown etc etc...its all about the individual and his prowess (and size, weight, age etc).

I do enjoy philosophically talking about the differences in theory between arts, but in all honesty even the most different arts break down to the same fundamentals (ideally) much like religion.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I've read through those martial arts school success packages. They say with probably good reason that people pick their schools by

1) location
2) price
3) training schedule

in that order.

Absolutely. Yet another reason for my low opinion of the general public.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As someone who trains in multiple arts I often come into conflict with a student from one saying something about another. Ill get "Wing Chun kicks BJJ's ****" or "BJJ beats everything, look at the Gracies" etc...my answer? Well its hard, you can argue any point.

"Wing Chun kicks BJJ's ****" = "Not on the ground it doesnt!"
"BJJ beats everything, look at the Gracies" = What about multiple armed attackers?

etc

Every art has its strength and weaknesses, I respect all of them (maybe less respect for some of these modern, western "defense systems" some random guy just invented last week).

What most people dont understand that art vs art can only ever be philosophical. Anything else is down to the individual. Chun beats BJJ? Okay then clearly the Chun practitioner was better at Chun than the BJJ practitioner at BJJ, and vice versa. A **** Chun guy vs a black belt in BJJ is going to get his **** handed to him, a white belt in BJJ vs. a senior Chun practitioner will eat a whole lot of kicks well before he gets a takedown etc etc...its all about the individual and his prowess (and size, weight, age etc).

I do enjoy philosophically talking about the differences in theory between arts, but in all honesty even the most different arts break down to the same fundamentals (ideally) much like religion.

Good observations.

I think that the problem is, at least part of it, is that people view a martial art as some kind of power up or performance enhancement. Because they view it that way, and because of the usual human tendency to want to be higher in the pecking order, it becomes a competitive, 'my art is the best' or at least 'better' than that of the next guys.

People also have a need to associate with a specific group. It's why we have fan clubs, fans wearing team jerseys, fans of one team hating fans of another team just because they're fans of another team, and sometimes riots at sporting events.

The martial art becomes the larger club. Then if that is not specific enough, the organization becomes important. 'I'm kukkiwon, and that's the real taekwondo' sort of nonsense then begins.

Daniel

 

[Steve]

Hey Steve,

Yeah, sounds like there may be a misunderstanding here. Let me attempt to clarify. If I've been following this correctly, you feel that its the art, not the student, and I feel its the student, not the art. Am I correct? If so, what led me to say what I did, was your post about BJJ. I would say that BJJ has higher standards than your typical art. So, if thats the case, chances are, it'll probably produce higher quality students.

You could have other arts, in which the teachers are great, but still within that same art, you could have teachers that suck. The good teachers will produce quality students, while the lousy teachers will produce subpar students.

This is why I said its the student, not the art.

Hey, sorry, MJS. I missed this response. I see your point, but it's not quite where I'm going. What I'm suggesting is that BJJ has mechanisms within the art that discourage deviation from the standard. It's very difficult for a BJJ or submission grappling school to operate in a vacuum. There's an expectation that at least some of the students at every school will compete, and it's these students competing at every level from white to black that keeps belt standards consistent. It's not about higher or lower standards, it's consistent standards across the board.

My point is that this is systemic. It's institutional. While anyone can allege that BJJ McDojos are popping up everywhere, I have seen no evidence that this is any kind of a real problem. If the ruleset changes significantly, such as what's happened in Judo, there might be problems in the future. But that's a hypothetical at this point. Just to be very, very clear. I'm not suggesting that BJJ is immune to these issues. I'm only saying that right now, there are internal mechanisms in place that discourage these issues. I hope they continue to work. Ultimately, if a student walks into a BJJ school and trains at least 3 times each week, and the instructor is an actual brown or black belt in BJJ, chances are very, very good that this person will learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. REgardless of aptitude or physical conditioning, this person can't help but get better at BJJ. Just by virtue of being on the mat, sparring with upper belts, it's impossible to not get better.

On the other hand, you have arts like the Bujinkan, WC, TKD and even some branches of Karate, where folks within the art are lamenting the current state of the art.

So, back to your point. You're talking about instructors. I'm saying that good instructors in a broken system are doing nothing more than teaching a flawed system well. In other words, they're doing a really good job of teaching people crap. Why? Because the system is broken.

This isn't a point of debate. It's just common sense. Back to the math analogy I used. If the material I'm teaching is 2+1=4, the material is flawed. The only difference between a good instructor and a bad one is that the good instructor will teach that more effectively... doing an even better job of spreading the misinformation. And the only difference a good student will make is that he or she will internalize it faster... and likely be more resistant to learning the correct way.

Ultimately, I'm not saying that there is no difference between a good student and a bad one, or a good instructor and a bad one. I'm not suggesting that this doesn't make a difference. What I'm saying is simply that at some point we have to look at what we're teaching and learning and gauge whether it's actually meeting our needs. Does it work? Is the system flawed? Are we churning out more bad product than good? And if so, why? If the problems are chronic, then it's not the artists; it's the art that is the issue.

And conversely, back to the BJJ example, it's systems and processes in place within the art that maintain consistent standards. Here again, it's the art; not the artist.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Good post and since MMA stated getting bigger we have had a problem with BJJ McDojos here, any Brazilian over here with a little knowledge of BJJ seems to have cashed in it now, where we used to have very few black belts and they took years to earn we are seeing more and more BB being awarded after a couple of years now. Thse BB of course are then openng their own places to make money.
People see a cash flow not students, they see a business not a martial arts heritage, there's nothing wrong in earning money from martial arts as long as there's value for money.

You can see watering down of standards here too Tez. Once the money starts flowing things do indeed seem to change. I was rolling just the other week with a BJJ school owner here in Vegas. (a good friend) He talked about things being tight right now do to the economy and more. The economy of course being the major issue. (bad unemployment figures) Still when looking around almost all of what I would call a McDojo that I have seen locally now has grappling instructors. (or crappling if you prefer when you see them) The general public cannot differentiate so they go with the school that is closest to them with the nicest facility and the the best salesman. In general those are the McDojo's! That is what they do really well! So my friend has stiff competition with them as they co-opt what he does with a worse package but hey people do not know that! (read the whole post here: The Instinctive Edge) With the advent of MMA you are seeing MMA schools pop up everywhere with people that are really unqualified doing the teaching. That is the reality of popularity. When Jeet Kune Do or Ninjutsu was the thing it happened there too and so on and so on! I agree with BJJ Steve in that the competition factor that he is talking about helps but.... I have seen many McDojo's that offer in house tournaments or regionalize, state or even national with the ATA. Parents and the general public have no idea that it is not a big tournament or that the competition is mediocre at best because they have not knowledge to compare it with. They just see there kid out there with some others and competing. So when cash and making a living becomes the norm then quite often quality suffers. Now I am not saying that cash or a school making money is bad. It's just when someone relies heavily on it to feed their family that things change. Then it is always about making a buck and how to optimize that situation! Just my 02.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One exemplary thing about BJJ is the belt system. Simply no kid blackbelts at all until they are 16 or 18 depending on the instructor. That in and of itself does a lot to maintain quality!

 

[Steve]

You can see watering down of standards here too Tez. Once the money starts flowing things do indeed seem to change. I was rolling just the other week with a BJJ school owner here in Vegas. (a good friend) He talked about things being tight right now do to the economy and more. The economy of course being the major issue. (bad unemployment figures) Still when looking around almost all of what I would call a McDojo that I have seen locally now has grappling instructors. (or crappling if you prefer when you see them) The general public cannot differentiate so they go with the school that is closest to them with the nicest facility and the the best salesman. In general those are the McDojo's! That is what they do really well! So my friend has stiff competition with them as they co-opt what he does with a worse package but hey people do not know that! (read the whole post here: The Instinctive Edge) With the advent of MMA you are seeing MMA schools pop up everywhere with people that are really unqualified doing the teaching. That is the reality of popularity. When Jeet Kune Do or Ninjutsu was the thing it happened there too and so on and so on! I agree with BJJ Steve in that the competition factor that he is talking about helps but.... I have seen many McDojo's that offer in house tournaments or regionalize, state or even national with the ATA. Parents and the general public have no idea that it is not a big tournament or that the competition is mediocre at best because they have not knowledge to compare it with. They just see there kid out there with some others and competing. So when cash and making a living becomes the norm then quite often quality suffers. Now I am not saying that cash or a school making money is bad. It's just when someone relies heavily on it to feed their family that things change. Then it is always about making a buck and how to optimize that situation! Just my 02.

That should be a huge red flag. There's a difference between tune up, in house tourneys which are pretty common and tournaments held internally to the exclusion of larger, open, inter-school competition. Out of 20 or so local BJJ/Grappling schools, I'm aware of only one that does this. In my estimation, that's pretty good. I hope it stays that way.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

That should be a huge red flag. There's a difference between tune up, in house tourneys which are pretty common and tournaments held internally to the exclusion of larger, open, inter-school competition. Out of 20 or so local BJJ/Grappling schools, I'm aware of only one that does this. In my estimation, that's pretty good. I hope it stays that way.

Me too Steve!!!!

 

[MJS]

Hey, sorry, MJS. I missed this response. I see your point, but it's not quite where I'm going. What I'm suggesting is that BJJ has mechanisms within the art that discourage deviation from the standard. It's very difficult for a BJJ or submission grappling school to operate in a vacuum. There's an expectation that at least some of the students at every school will compete, and it's these students competing at every level from white to black that keeps belt standards consistent. It's not about higher or lower standards, it's consistent standards across the board.

No problem. I think this is the problem though, and you just hit the nail on the head, with what you said about BJJ. I would wager a bet and say that there are many arts out there that do deviate, thus leading to issues. Now, some deviation is ok, IMO, because afterall, we're not robots. But, when the deviation starts seriously taking away from the principles, concepts, ideas, etc., from the art, well, IMO, I think thats a problem.

My point is that this is systemic. It's institutional. While anyone can allege that BJJ McDojos are popping up everywhere, I have seen no evidence that this is any kind of a real problem. If the ruleset changes significantly, such as what's happened in Judo, there might be problems in the future. But that's a hypothetical at this point. Just to be very, very clear. I'm not suggesting that BJJ is immune to these issues. I'm only saying that right now, there are internal mechanisms in place that discourage these issues. I hope they continue to work. Ultimately, if a student walks into a BJJ school and trains at least 3 times each week, and the instructor is an actual brown or black belt in BJJ, chances are very, very good that this person will learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. REgardless of aptitude or physical conditioning, this person can't help but get better at BJJ. Just by virtue of being on the mat, sparring with upper belts, it's impossible to not get better.

Nor have I, seen BJJ mcdojos. As I said above, I think this is where alot of the issues come from.

On the other hand, you have arts like the Bujinkan, WC, TKD and even some branches of Karate, where folks within the art are lamenting the current state of the art.

Agreed.

So, back to your point. You're talking about instructors. I'm saying that good instructors in a broken system are doing nothing more than teaching a flawed system well. In other words, they're doing a really good job of teaching people crap. Why? Because the system is broken.

This isn't a point of debate. It's just common sense. Back to the math analogy I used. If the material I'm teaching is 2+1=4, the material is flawed. The only difference between a good instructor and a bad one is that the good instructor will teach that more effectively... doing an even better job of spreading the misinformation. And the only difference a good student will make is that he or she will internalize it faster... and likely be more resistant to learning the correct way.

Ultimately, I'm not saying that there is no difference between a good student and a bad one, or a good instructor and a bad one. I'm not suggesting that this doesn't make a difference. What I'm saying is simply that at some point we have to look at what we're teaching and learning and gauge whether it's actually meeting our needs. Does it work? Is the system flawed? Are we churning out more bad product than good? And if so, why? If the problems are chronic, then it's not the artists; it's the art that is the issue.

And conversely, back to the BJJ example, it's systems and processes in place within the art that maintain consistent standards. Here again, it's the art; not the artist.

Points taken. I think there are times though, that some teachers do see flaws, and make changes, thus often making them the 'black sheep' of that art. Ex: There are things that I think are flawed in the Kenpo system. I mention this, only to be told that there are no flaws in the system, but instead the flaw lies with MY Kenpo. Now, that may be the case, however, when I talk to others and they echo my thoughts, well, that tells me something. The difference between me and alot of Kenpo people, is that I'm not in fear that the Kenpo Gods will strike me down. LOL. I think where the problem lies, is that some people are afraid to admit certain things suck. LOL.

I guess thats why I said its the person, not the art.

 

[Xue Sheng]

One exemplary thing about BJJ is the belt system. Simply no kid blackbelts at all until they are 16 or 18 depending on the instructor. That in and of itself does a lot to maintain quality!

Ahh brings back memories of my old days in Japanese Jujutsu.... (Early 70s)... you could not get a black belt until you were 18 back then.

Sadly, this may translate to wait 30 years and you will be seeing 10 year old BJJ black belts

But I will admit right here although I am not a big fan of BJJ for myself I do respect what I see as it applies to training and integrity in, what use to be all but now is, most schools in my area.