A MT argument while at work

[Xue Sheng]

Sanshou is ussually not considered a TMA. It is a sport competition, often practiced in gym settings, lacks kata/forms, and its practitioners pressure test their skills. Sanshou is as traditional as kickboxing, which came out of "full contact karate" in the same manner.



Now follow Cung Le, a very skilled real fighter, in MMA rather than staying there. Sports fighting in non-MMA events should give a good idea of how good a person is in a particular aspect of fighting (in Sanshou it is standup and to a lesser extent takedowns... just add groundwork and your in business).



Don't mistake heavily injured competitors for quality victors, although I do highly respect good competitive Sanshou - its an excellent base for MMA when done right.



They will be well prepared for the standup and takedown components. THat is good.



Huh?



Some people like to fight in all ranges of combat - including the ground. Lots of good fighters want the groundwork component with the less restrictive rules of MMA. Also, MMA still pays better, although it doesn't pay highly, which keeps pro athletes going to MMA and kickboxing.



MMA allows all of what Sanshou does plus more - ie the ground. People who suceed under less restrictive rules are the better proven fighters.

And since you have entirely missed my point. I am not trying to prove anything is better here because I do not believe any of them are. If you are trying to prove this to me, I suggest you move on to prove it to someone else, you are wasting your time.

And I do not take an injury as a sign of a good match, it was an example.

You should see a Chinese sanshou match before you infer that it is a good base for MMA. They would probably say just the opposite. And of course the expected response will be, well if they are so good why don’t they fight in MMA.

Point, which you seem to have completely missed. They do not fight in MMA because they do not care about MMA. As surprising as this may come to an MMA person, MMA very likely matters little to them. They have there own matches that are equally as good and or taxing. And there are take downs in international matches and Chinese matches, if you can actually get close enough to take one down that is.

And aadditinal point, sanshou/sanda has a non-sport side as well that has everything you are talking about in MMA and more that does not follow rules. It is the preferred style taught to the Chinese Police and Military. And if you do not think they are effective…

I do not understand the need to prove superiority whether that comes from a CMA guy or am JMA guy or a MMA guy or a TMA guy.

As for the Sanhou women's silver, I also posted before something that shows that she was apparently effective in the street as well. I frankly do not make the distinctions, to me it is all martial arts and it can all be very effective, it all depends on the practitioner and the situation they are in.

I am very tired of the MMA, CMA TMA JMA argument. Believe what you will.

 

[MJS]

Wow, this is certainly turning into an interesting thread!:ultracool Lots of great posts here, and most importantly, considering the nature of the topic, we're all remaining civil!:ultracool

I guess we can look at a few things here.

A) We hear "You fight like you train" so if we look at the rules list and the do's and don'ts, I think some may think, "Well, if the MMA fighter doesn't normally train for an eye shot or groin kick and the TMA guy does, they may stand a better chance. The other side of the coin is the counter argument that yes, the MMA guy will be capable of doing those things.

B) What about weapons and mult. attackers? I haven't been to my BJJ classes in a while, but as of the last time I was there, we didn't focus on gun, knife or mult attacker scenarios.

C) If a TMAist did not cross train or cross reference other arts, are they still going to hold up in a confrontation?

D) Is the average person that is going to try and mug us, steal our wallet, try to attack our wife or girlfriend, going to be on the same skill level as a fighter that you'd see in a MMA match?

Just for clarification, the above comments are not necessarily ones that people have said in this thread, but they're simply the usual comments that come up in discussions like this.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I think it depends. Any style can be used any way, its how you practiced it. If you practiced it in a single-move way, it won't work, but if you practiced practically, it should work. Even though all mas are different, they are similar enough that any style should work if you apply it right.

Right on!!! My point exactly!! As I said earlier, unless we know how every single art out there trains, how can someone say that a TMA is useless? It all comes down to how things are trained.

Mike

 

[pstarr]

I agree COMPLETELY with what Dark said regarding McDojos. But traditionalists probably loathe them even more than the MMA crowd simply because they tout themselves as "traditional martial arts" and give all of us a bad name.

 

[Xue Sheng]

As I said earlier, unless we know how every single art out there trains, how can someone say that a TMA is useless? It all comes down to how things are trained.

Exactly. :asian:

 

[Robert Lee]

MMA showed that a rounding of the tools improved results. And conditioning that lacks in some store front M/A schools. Most TMA,s have certion amounts of ground work When trained more they can deal better. Look at todays UFC . people are beeter rounded at there game. Can TMA,s compete there now. Yes if thats what you want you train it to work in the MMA events. But you have to remember condition is a big part also. And training means you put in the resistive training. MMa and TMA both work is one better. one test results more. BUt TMA can test more often making the use come out better. Where did MMA come from. It came from other arts. Its still M/A

 

[Rook]

And since you have entirely missed my point. I am not trying to prove anything is better here because I do not believe any of them are. If you are trying to prove this to me, I suggest you move on to prove it to someone else, you are wasting your time.

Simply by making the discussion public makes it possible to convince people not directly involved in the conversation.

And I do not take an injury as a sign of a good match, it was an example.

Fair enough.

You should see a Chinese sanshou match before you infer that it is a good base for MMA. They would probably say just the opposite. And of course the expected response will be, well if they are so good why don’t they fight in MMA.

In the years to come, I strongly suspect that many of them will fight MMA. If not, it may be that they are more interested in other things than what MMA offers. Thats fine, so long as no one is under the impression that this is superior to MMA in fighting.

Point, which you seem to have completely missed. They do not fight in MMA because they do not care about MMA. As surprising as this may come to an MMA person, MMA very likely matters little to them. They have there own matches that are equally as good and or taxing. And there are take downs in international matches and Chinese matches, if you can actually get close enough to take one down that is.

I've seen some of the matches on the web. They have good kickboxing skills and some of them have solid takedowns.

And aadditinal point, sanshou/sanda has a non-sport side as well that has everything you are talking about in MMA and more that does not follow rules. It is the preferred style taught to the Chinese Police and Military. And if you do not think they are effective…

There are lots of things not intended for full fighting, but rather for the restraint without injury of incompetent or outnumbered opponents. Thats fine.

I do not understand the need to prove superiority whether that comes from a CMA guy or am JMA guy or a MMA guy or a TMA guy.

So long as no one claims superiority they don't have, thats fine.

As for the Sanhou women's silver, I also posted before something that shows that she was apparently effective in the street as well.

I frankly do not make the distinctions, to me it is all martial arts and it can all be very effective, it all depends on the practitioner and the situation they are in.

I'm going to steal an idea that someone posted on Budoseek a while back. Lets say I practice a really bad style, lets say its called "Ultraspin-jutsu" and consists entirely of spinning backkick variations. The actual technique of a spinning backkick is applicable even in MMA, where it occassionally used against a weakened opponent. If I practice this limited style at the level of an Olympic athlete and never get caught in close space or fight someone with skill at a more effective style, then yes, I could hypothetically beat most of the population in unarmed fighting. Should we just say "Hey, if I train hard enough I can make the most worthless throw usefull by muscling over my opponent, etc" and therefor any possible style is utterly equal to all other styles?

In the early and middle UFCs, JJ practitioners beat many people who were superior athletes, not to mention larger. If training time could overcome all problems, then the ring would have every possible array of human motion working with relatively equal sucess.

I am very tired of the MMA, CMA TMA JMA argument. Believe what you will.

Fair enough.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I know I basically said I was going to let this go, but some of the things you said make no sense to me and I need some clarification

Simply by making the discussion public makes it possible to convince people not directly involved in the conversation. .

I have no idea what you are referring to here?

In the years to come, I strongly suspect that many of them will fight MMA. If not, it may be that they are more interested in other things than what MMA offers. That’s fine, so long as no one is under the impression that this is superior to MMA in fighting.

I do not know about them, but I never said anything was superior to MMA. However I did say MMA was not superior to any other MA as well

I've seen some of the matches on the web. They have good kickboxing skills and some of them have solid takedowns.


There are lots of things not intended for full fighting, but rather for the restraint without injury of incompetent or outnumbered opponents. Thats fine.

How do I put this.... The police and military in China...well they are not exactly concerned about restraint without injury. If you push a police officer in China.. You will get hurt. If you are crazy enough to mess with the military.. you are lucky if you only get hurt.

They do not train Sanda for restraint.

So long as no one claims superiority they don't have, thats fine.

who is claiming superiority, if you think it is I you definitely have missed my point

I'm going to steal an idea that someone posted on Budoseek a while back. Lets say I practice a really bad style, lets say its called "Ultraspin-jutsu" and consists entirely of spinning backkick variations. The actual technique of a spinning backkick is applicable even in MMA, where it occassionally used against a weakened opponent. If I practice this limited style at the level of an Olympic athlete and never get caught in close space or fight someone with skill at a more effective style, then yes, I could hypothetically beat most of the population in unarmed fighting. Should we just say "Hey, if I train hard enough I can make the most worthless throw usefull by muscling over my opponent, etc" and therefor any possible style is utterly equal to all other styles?

Sorry, but I have no idea how this applies.

In the early and middle UFCs, JJ practitioners beat many people who were superior athletes, not to mention larger. If training time could overcome all problems, then the ring would have every possible array of human motion working with relatively equal sucess.

Once again I have no idea how this applies to anything I said.

Fair enough.

Sorry, I just had to respond, let me reiterate. I am NOT saying MMA is a lesser art. I AM saying it is an equal art. I am NOT saying MMA is superior to anything, nor am I saying TMA is superior to anything.

I am saying the argument of "if they are so good why don't they compete in MMA" is pointless and groundless. They have their own competitions and many of them are not in the least bit interested in MMA.

Many of the Chinese sanshou fighters never leave China. First they live there, second they work there and third they see no reason to test their skills against anyone else. They may in fact believe they are superior, I have no idea. I know they are serious and they kick, punch, throw, and ground fight, etc. They also train multiple points on their bodies to hit you with, generally by hitting trees and rocks, and they do not train with pads or gloves. And if what I have seen in early non-sport sanda is any indication of hitting power, they can hit hard with just about anything.

Also many of the people in the Chinese Sanda matches are police and military. Although their base is non-sport, they enjoy the sport competition too.

 

[Hand Sword]

Sorry to respond late, but I only have a computer at work, and I work the 3rd shift (a fight in itself).

Thanks everyone for the answers.

The debate at work was that, not so much that MMA was better, but, that it took the MA's in general up a level, just as the American/Hawaiian sytyles did to the TMA's. We were reviewing the altercations on the jobs--Grappling situations, and fast stand up, with "ugly" boxing attempts. The one big punch was absent--for the most part. They were saying that the TMA's were stiff and rooted, with no flow. The MMA's teach all to Flow better and look more closely to what a real situation was. Think of MMA without any of the rules, and mixed with a MA mindset. What also came up was how many instances the "Karate" guys got trashed, easily by these untrained thugs.

 

[Rook]

I know I basically said I was going to let this go, but some of the things you said make no sense to me and I need some clarification

Ok.

I have no idea what you are referring to here?

If I don't convince you, I might convince someone who is reading but not writing anything on this thread.

I do not know about them, but I never said anything was superior to MMA. However I did say MMA was not superior to any other MA as well.

This is the equality of styles arguement that I responded to later.

How do I put this.... The police and military in China...well they are not exactly concerned about restraint without injury. If you push a police officer in China.. You will get hurt. If you are crazy enough to mess with the military.. you are lucky if you only get hurt.

They do not train Sanda for restraint.

Police versions of Sanda, like most other police arts, include techniques for restraining (ie bringing under control) individuals who are not at a level to resist those restraining techniques.

who is claiming superiority, if you think it is I you definitely have missed my point

If not superiority, then perhaps a mistaken equality.

Sorry, but I have no idea how this applies.

This is a response to the "equality of styles" arguement you posited earlier. I made up a hypothetical style that might work somewhat, but is very impractical in order to illustrate the idea that all possible styles are not inherantly equal.

Once again I have no idea how this applies to anything I said.

If, as you suggest or assert, all possible styles are equally effective, then it shouldn't matter how one moves.... you should be able to pull off all movements with equal combat effectiveness - clearly this is not the case. Some styles are more effective than others.

Sorry, I just had to respond, let me reiterate. I am NOT saying MMA is a lesser art. I AM saying it is an equal art. I am NOT saying MMA is superior to anything, nor am I saying TMA is superior to anything.

Ok.

I am saying the argument of "if they are so good why don't they compete in MMA" is pointless and groundless. They have their own competitions and many of them are not in the least bit interested in MMA.

Thats fine so long as no one is under the impression that they are equally or more effective than equivalent MMAists.

Many of the Chinese sanshou fighters never leave China. First they live there, second they work there and third they see no reason to test their skills against anyone else. They may in fact believe they are superior, I have no idea. I know they are serious and they kick, punch, throw, and ground fight, etc. They also train multiple points on their bodies to hit you with, generally by hitting trees and rocks, and they do not train with pads or gloves. And if what I have seen in early non-sport sanda is any indication of hitting power, they can hit hard with just about anything.

Also many of the people in the Chinese Sanda matches are police and military. Although their base is non-sport, they enjoy the sport competition too.

Ok. I stand by my expectation. Sambo was similarly a sport utilized to train military and police and has been used with great sucess by Eastern European competitors whereas once it was a national security secret in the USSR. In time, I suspect top Sanda competitors, like top Soviet Sambo competitors, will filter into MMA. Some won't, just as most Sambo champions are content with their own art.

 

[Dark]

Sorry to respond late, but I only have a computer at work, and I work the 3rd shift (a fight in itself).

Thanks everyone for the answers.

The debate at work was that, not so much that MMA was better, but, that it took the MA's in general up a level, just as the American/Hawaiian sytyles did to the TMA's. We were reviewing the altercations on the jobs--Grappling situations, and fast stand up, with "ugly" boxing attempts. The one big punch was absent--for the most part. They were saying that the TMA's were stiff and rooted, with no flow. The MMA's teach all to Flow better and look more closely to what a real situation was. Think of MMA without any of the rules, and mixed with a MA mindset. What also came up was how many instances the "Karate" guys got trashed, easily by these untrained thugs.

No self-respecting karateka is gonna step up in a tournament or the cage. The reason isn't the BS propaganda allot of Big Organizations spit out but simply the intent of it all. My old Shotokan Sensei fought in Japan back in the 70s. They are had no pads and less rules the earily UFCs, he got his back and knee broken in those fights.
His Sensei almost kicked him out for "cheapening" the art to a sport, he felt that karate was about learning to fight so you don't have to fight type stuff. Which as been water downed to the we aren't even gonna spar and learn 60 katas till shodan crap we see with the larger MA franchize organizations. Who wants fries with their black belt? lol

Allot of the competition in MAs are good, but they don't equal to the real thing in life. You see this wall of propaganda from both sides TMA don't do fittness or spar and the MMA are just sports and arent designed for the real world. All of which is lies from both sides of the fence. I've had some guys come in and roll with use from other schools and it was fun, all the propaganda is like the he said she said crap from jr. high and hold s about as much water...

 

[Hand Sword]

I'm sorry if I confused anyone. We weren't talking about the MMA's as a sport, but rather the strategies (?) and how they apply to real encounters . Such as knowing how to grapple, which a lot a TMA people don't practice regularly, and where you end up, ususally, for real (Why the trashing I talked of above ocurred). Also, the flat footed stances in the TMA's and hard blocking, too slow and stiff for real. It was more about the MMA's were the "bridge" to the MA's to the real world.

 

[Hand Sword]

Just for the record,

I think both sides are useful in a self defense situation.

 

[Dark]

I'm sorry if I confused anyone. We weren't talking about the MMA's as a sport, but rather the strategies (?) and how they apply to real encounters . Such as knowing how to grapple, which a lot a TMA people don't practice regularly, and where you end up, ususally, for real (Why the trashing I talked of above ocurred). Also, the flat footed stances in the TMA's and hard blocking, too slow and stiff for real. It was more about the MMA's were the "bridge" to the MA's to the real world.

I once broke a guys wrist with a low block, it was accidental he pushed me from behind and I turned lol Sorry flash backs and all. Everything is a matter of context. It depends on how and why the arts train.

I still spar without pads and I'm actually surprised I have all my teeth. Allot of the older styles of MA have been watered down. You have to realize that allot of styles were practiced on dirt or grass and thus the flat footed stances, though actually flat foot is incorrect since the weight is suppost to be maintained on your toes amking th stanec seem flat footed. On the blocking thing, TMAs include all manner of blocking techniques I'm assuming your looking at mostly karate? As the bridging thing is common in JJJ and Judo as well as Greeko-Roman Wrestling. So your gonna have to specific on the arts your lookig at for TMAs.

 

[Hand Sword]

Sorry

. I guess I would go with the "karate" systems as the TMA's in this argument, and the BJJ JJ and wrestling as part of the MMA's side.

 

[Hand Sword]

HS, this is a good question. I would agree - having *never once* encountered anyone in a real live situation who came at me with a recognized TMA strike - that nobody fights like this on the pavement. Thing is, *I* do though. I'm much happier to mold my style to the "modern" circumstance rather than run off jumping the MMA bandwagon because someone in their great wisdom deems my art outmoded and has also decreed the MMA arts the best thing since sliced bread. If that's your thing, fine. I've got no arguement that one art is better than the other.

But I don't see the point of X-training *my* art just because some street-guru says it no longer holds sway with the street-fighting fashion intelligensia - shoulder pads and Dynasty haircuts ok, but my Aikido, no. Traditional, yes it is certainly. Out of date? Well only to practitioners too lazy to refocus their techniques and instead run off looking for the arts that have the nicer t shirts or the coolest ring-boots or the highest-profile TV coverage.

If one is bored with one's art, fair enough, that suggests a need to go find something more challenging or appropriate, I'd be the first to suggest that. But at least we should be honest about it and not reason that it's because it doesn't work in the application for which it's designed. If anything in such an instance we should be honest with ourself that our motivation has withered to look deeper into our existing art.

All imho only! And all my own work. And I still like Miami Vice rolled-up jacket sleeves anyway. Fashion? Who cares, hehe.

Respects!

Good response from ya MI! We actually have a few Aikidoka, that sort of got left out in the debate at work. The Aikido worked fine in that element, in spite of what others might think. Both sides at the time of the original debate agreed on this. The lunging attacks were handled very easy by the Aikidoka, the grappling too, without using any of the other "stuff". The locks worked well too, for the escorts out, if you get my meaning.

 

[Adept]

The point I was trying to make was that you can get this in TMA or MMA as long as the instructor knows how to teach it, and the student knows how to train for it.

Which was my point as well. But adding to that, I think you are more likely to find it at a MMA gym, or even a boxing gym, than a TMA dojo.

 

[Hand Sword]

Smack on the money. Another difference, fighting some chav on the street who's trying to half inch your wallet, or a 230lb muscleman fighting machine/professional fighter, massive difference in circumstances.

Absolutely. But, remember We were talking about LEO/ club fights. These kind of monsters, steroid freaks if you will, with the rage too, are the frequent participants. These real fights were fast and furious boxing/grappling like. The young, muscular, fast bucks so to speak. They, and the way they fight, was what supposedly the TMA guys can't handle without the help of MMA philosophies.

 

[Hand Sword]

Which was my point as well. But adding to that, I think you are more likely to find it at a MMA gym, or even a boxing gym, than a TMA dojo.

That was another point brought up in the debate. The TMA guys practice what their gospel preaches, which was drop back into a flat footed stance, block then strike. The old 1, 2 method, which was argued too slow for these encounters, but fine for that drunk, with the one big swing.

 

[Dark]

Sorry

. I guess I would go with the "karate" systems as the TMA's in this argument, and the BJJ JJ and wrestling as part of the MMA's side.

But Japanese Jujitsu is a TMA and so is Judo, so why are excluded from the TMA side of MA?

But as wish we can examine the Karate systems... Anyone specifically you want to examine?