A Brief History of Taekwon-Do by General Choi

[terryl965]

who the hell is this guy that tries to sound like he was there??

puunui has been around a long time and has alot of information to be given out. He has been with almost every single top flight person over the last forty yar or longer. Some may not like his approach, kinda like yours at times but he has a view of what he believes in strongly, unify all TKD brothers to come together for the betterment of TKD whether it is KKW, WTF ITF USAT AAU or any other org.

 

[terryl965]

Can I ask this question without a blood bath errupting? In everything I have read the general is consider one of the founding fathers of modern day TKD, why after all these year would it change? What makes one G.M. word better than another? Which story would be consider the truth and how can anything be verified enough to stand in a court of law? The last thing is nobody can ever say that General Choi did not do anything for TKD as a whole, I can say honestly that I find it funny that after the man has passed away there is a big attempt to prove he was a not a big part of the developement of TKD. I agree he was not found of sport TKD but alot of great G.M. are not for that matter does that make them bad? I for one was not there but by all accounts he was and had something to do with TKD, now what that truely was who knows but I really doubt I will ever not believe he was a man that had a vision for TKD on the global world.

 

[andyjeffries]

No we would be doing Tang Su Do or Tae Soo Do, not Kukki TKD! There simply would be no TKD without Gen Choi..

You might be doing an art called Tae Soo Do (more likely Taesoodo knowing the WTF's preference for a single word romanisation), but the movements/style you'd be practicing would likely be identical to what Kukki-Taekwondo is today. The only difference would be the name.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Can I ask this question without a blood bath errupting? In everything I have read the general is consider one of the founding fathers of modern day TKD, why after all these year would it change? What makes one G.M. word better than another? Which story would be consider the truth and how can anything be verified enough to stand in a court of law? The last thing is nobody can ever say that General Choi did not do anything for TKD as a whole, I can say honestly that I find it funny that after the man has passed away there is a big attempt to prove he was a not a big part of the developement of TKD. I agree he was not found of sport TKD but alot of great G.M. are not for that matter does that make them bad? I for one was not there but by all accounts he was and had something to do with TKD, now what that truely was who knows but I really doubt I will ever not believe he was a man that had a vision for TKD on the global world.

Eh... fifty plus pages of back and forth over several threads about the General and his place seem to have only two common denominators: Puunui and KaratemomUSA. There hasn't been this much discussion about the General on this board since I've been a member. One of them cannot drop the topic no matter how many times they get the same answers and the other simply cannot ignore the first's posts.

When you get down to it, you have two separate organizations, each of which value the contributions different individuals. The problem comes up when people from one org demand recognition for their founders from people in the other org.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

puunui has been around a long time and has alot of information to be given out. He has been with almost every single top flight person over the last forty yar or longer. Some may not like his approach, kinda like yours at times but he has a view of what he believes in strongly, unify all TKD brothers to come together for the betterment of TKD whether it is KKW, WTF ITF USAT AAU or any other org.

It appears that he was not with Gen Choi, nor I sure he had much exposure to those doing Original TKD. While I do think he means that he would like all of TKD to unite, I am not sure that he is very welcoming to ITF people, as he is so harsh at times with their founder & does not seem to be able to credit what they have accompliished to any meaningful extent.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Can I ask this question without a blood bath errupting? In everything I have read the general is consider one of the founding fathers of modern day TKD, why after all these year would it change? What makes one G.M. word better than another? Which story would be consider the truth and how can anything be verified enough to stand in a court of law? The last thing is nobody can ever say that General Choi did not do anything for TKD as a whole, I can say honestly that I find it funny that after the man has passed away there is a big attempt to prove he was a not a big part of the developement of TKD. I agree he was not found of sport TKD but alot of great G.M. are not for that matter does that make them bad? I for one was not there but by all accounts he was and had something to do with TKD, now what that truely was who knows but I really doubt I will ever not believe he was a man that had a vision for TKD on the global world.

Yes you are right & it is changing a bit now, as more people are free from the restrictions put on them via the military dictatorships & those politics are no longer in place.
The problem as I see it, is that the 2 major views of TKD's history & development are different as the other side fails to acknowledge thwe other different path taken. So if your Kukki TKD, ITF is karate. If you are Chang Hon TKD, they are karate. Both sides are wrong. They are both TKD, but different styles of TKD, hence they have different paths of development, from of course the same common roots. Gen Choi deserves credit for what he did on his side. He also gets blame for interefering with the Kukki TKD guys as well.
Like Steve Capener, PhD states TKD would do better with the telling of history if they dealt with the karate connection & highlighted how they moved away from those roots AND I add how they moved away from those common roots via 2 major & separate paths of development.
What may I ask is wrong with that approach?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

You might be doing an art called Tae Soo Do (more likely Taesoodo knowing the WTF's preference for a single word romanisation), but the movements/style you'd be practicing would likely be identical to what Kukki-Taekwondo is today. The only difference would be the name.

Yes of course, but I may be doing Tangsudo myself, which I think is different from TKD, either of the 2 major TKDs.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

When you get down to it, you have two separate organizations, each of which value the contributions different individuals. The problem comes up when people from one org demand recognition for their founders from people in the other org.

Daniel

True. Here we also have not only this, but an attack on 1 side, plus what appears at times to be a whole disregard for what 1 side did actually make happen.
I don't think anyone should hide their heads in the sand. This is of course ther 21st centrury!

 

[chrispillertkd]

It appears that he was not with Gen Choi, nor I sure he had much exposure to those doing Original TKD. While I do think he means that he would like all of TKD to unite, I am not sure that he is very welcoming to ITF people, as he is so harsh at times with their founder & does not seem to be able to credit what they have accompliished to any meaningful extent.

Can't say I agree with the bolded sentiment. Glenn alread ystated in another post he was quite wiling to have ITF'ers join the KKW. All they have to do is stop practicing Taekwon-Do like Gen. Choi designed it and start practicing Taekwon-Do like the KKW wants (maybe he'd even help them get KKW dan ranks before they completely were up to speed with the KKW method of doing things since, by his own admission, rank is unimportant). Sure, the post he made regarding that can be read in such a way that it sounds belittling, but then most of his posts can be read that way.

Pax,

Chris

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Can't say I agree with the bolded sentiment. Glenn alread ystated in another post he was quite wiling to have ITF'ers join the KKW. All they have to do is stop practicing Taekwon-Do like Gen. Choi designed it and start practicing Taekwon-Do like the KKW wants (maybe he'd even help them get KKW dan ranks before they completely were up to speed with the KKW method of doing things since, by his own admission, rank is unimportant). Sure, the post he made regarding that can be read in such a way that it sounds belittling, but then most of his posts can be read that way.

Pax,

Chris

Yes I understand & agree with that. What I meant by the text you bolded was it often reads like students (children) of the ITF are definately most welcome. but their teacher(s) (parents, especially the father) was so terribly bad AND really didn't accomplish anything much worth acknowledging. That is what I get the impression from what he posts. So how do you actually welcome someone, with welcoming implying some type of warmth, with harshness. At times it seems more like, you innocent children have been so abused & have wasted so much time, but come to us & you can start again.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Yes you are right & it is changing a bit now, as more people are free from the restrictions put on them via the military dictatorships & those politics are no longer in place.
The problem as I see it, is that the 2 major views of TKD's history & development are different as the other side fails to acknowledge thwe other different path taken.

Perhaps at one point (OK, not really "perhaps") but I'd hazard to say that this now depends on who you talk to. GM Choi, Jung Hwa has stated several times that the ITF and WTF are both Taekwon-Do and that "the time for being enemies is past."

I don't know what the other heads of the ITF groups are doing in this regard, however. With all of them attempting to re-enter South Korea I doubt very much you're going to hear much of the "those guys are karate" rhetoric these days.

On the other hand, I don't expect the KKW to say anything remotely similar to such sentiments (although it was great to see that some of the ITF pioneers were given a much overdue recognition last year). While the ITF, especially under GM Choi, has made modest gains in schools and students in South Korea it is still a small presence and will never have anywhere near the influence or size that the KKW does (which is fine by me, frankly). I very much doubt that the KKW will feel that such a small presence will warrant any sort of rapprochment. I could defintiely be wrong but would be very surprised if this were to happen on any sort of large scale.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

Yes I understand & agree with that. What I meant by the text you bolded was it often reads like students (children) of the ITF are definately most welcome. but their teacher(s) (parents, especially the father) was so terribly bad AND really didn't accomplish anything much worth acknowledging. That is what I get the impression from what he posts. So how do you actually welcome someone, with welcoming implying some type of warmth, with harshness. At times it seems more like, you innocent children have been so abused & have wasted so much time, but come to us & you can start again.

Offer them a skip dan, perhaps?

Pax,

Chris

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Perhaps at one point (OK, not really "perhaps") but I'd hazard to say that this now depends on who you talk to. GM Choi, Jung Hwa has stated several times that the ITF and WTF are both Taekwon-Do and that "the time for being enemies is past."

I don't know what the other heads of the ITF groups are doing in this regard, however. With all of them attempting to re-enter South Korea I doubt very much you're going to hear much of the "those guys are karate" rhetoric these days.

On the other hand, I don't expect the KKW to say anything remotely similar to such sentiments (although it was great to see that some of the ITF pioneers were given a much overdue recognition last year). While the ITF, especially under GM Choi, has made modest gains in schools and students in South Korea it is still a small presence and will never have anywhere near the influence or size that the KKW does (which is fine by me, frankly). I very much doubt that the KKW will feel that such a small presence will warrant any sort of rapprochment. I could defintiely be wrong but would be very surprised if this were to happen on any sort of large scale.

Pax,

Chris

Yes & that was done by the WTF. The KKW at the time was still led by the man that the south Korean Natioanl Assemby's new law made inelligible to head the KKW, in their attempt to clean up south Korean TKD which is very important to Korea & Koreans. It seems to me that the "old guard" is moving aside in 1 way or another & that the changes are not going over well with many. I also know that the TKD Park will honor Gen Choi & the Original TKD Pioneers in some fashion as well, with their own chairman crediting Gen Choi with being TKD's founder.
So these things are happening & I can only imagine are not going over too well with some who were in the trenches fighting the good fight, when they were fighting.

 

[puunui]

I can't speak to the accuracy of GM Cho's claim about being "allowed" to teach but it wouldcertainly seem inaccurate since by 1972 here in Chicago there were at least 6 Korean born instructors teaching ITF TKD among them Han Cha Kyo, Nam Tae Hi and KS Shin.

Let's take those three. Were they "sent" by General Choi to spread "his" Taekwon-Do in the United States, or did they immigrate to the US because they wanted to live in the US?

 

[puunui]

You however, because of your personal feelings & what you have learned from those he was working against, seem to have not only disdain for the man, hesitant to give him any credit early on in those formative years & wish to actually discredit him & even slur him for the great accomplishments he achieved in his style of TKD & how that contributed in a positive way to many people around the world.

It has nothing to do with my "personal feelings", which frankly is indifference, if you must know. I don't hate him, I just don't spend all that much time thinking about him, at all. And there is no slur in correcting all of misinformation that constantly spew regarding General Choi.

That not only seems disingenuous, but also not in the spirit of the martial arts.

What is disingenuous is for you to take all of the information that I have provided and then twist it in your effort to place General Choi at the pinnacle of the Taekwondo world.

May I ask, do you have such views or hard feelings towards any other martial art leader? Or any other martial artist period?

No one is out there attempting to make everyone eat General Choi's lies as much as you do. If you have anyone to blame for all this, try looking in the mirror. You brought all of this on yourself and General Choi, by trying to make him out to be someone he is not. He is Benedict Arnold, not George Washington, and all your spins and twists isn't going to change that.

 

[puunui]

In everything I have read the general is consider one of the founding fathers of modern day TKD, why after all these year would it change? What makes one G.M. word better than another? Which story would be consider the truth and how can anything be verified enough to stand in a court of law? The last thing is nobody can ever say that General Choi did not do anything for TKD as a whole, I can say honestly that I find it funny that after the man has passed away there is a big attempt to prove he was a not a big part of the developement of TKD. I agree he was not found of sport TKD but alot of great G.M. are not for that matter does that make them bad? I for one was not there but by all accounts he was and had something to do with TKD, now what that truely was who knows but I really doubt I will ever not believe he was a man that had a vision for TKD on the global world.

It's not so much that General Choi didn't participate during the mid 50's and beyond, but rather it is the extent and nature of his "contributions". I simply feel that it is wrong to allow lies to go unanswered. That and the fact that karatemom (what a name for a General Choi cheerleader) takes information that I share and then misconstrues it in an effort to prove that General Choi is the greatest thing since sliced bread. In the meantime, his ITF followers find themselves in organizations that are subject to constant fragmentation and disintegration. They are the real victims in this sad story. As a Chung Do Kwan member, I do empathize with these ITF members and try to help them if I can, just like I helped the ITF practitioners in my area. But maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I should just leave them alone and let them be where they are. I know that I do not enjoy thinking about General Choi because all it does is bring forth chaotic thoughts mixed with bold faced lies. For someone like me who is interested in truthful exchanges, it is distasteful to have to deal with so much falsifications and misrepresentations.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

It has nothing to do with my "personal feelings", which frankly is indifference, if you must know. I don't hate him, I just don't spend all that much time thinking about him, at all. And there is no slur in correcting all of misinformation that constantly spew regarding General Choi.
What is disingenuous is for you to take all of the information that I have provided and then twist it in your effort to place General Choi at the pinnacle of the Taekwondo world.
No one is out there attempting to make everyone eat General Choi's lies as much as you do. If you have anyone to blame for all this, try looking in the mirror. You brought all of this on yourself and General Choi, by trying to make him out to be someone he is not. He is Benedict Arnold, not George Washington, and all your spins and twists isn't going to change that.

I have not spewed any misinformation about Gen Choi. Nor do I lie & I avoid any use of negative writing in any of the postings.
I also never said Gen Choi was the pinnacle of the Taekwondo world. In fact I said often & I will repeat again that he had little if anything to do with Kukki TKD & he was a thorn in their side that even fought against some of the things they were trying to do.
What I have spoken about in positive terms is Gen Choi's contributions & accomplishments in his Original or Chang Hon TKD, which are many & have impacted millions of students around the world. This has nothing to do with Kukki TKD. but yet you still argue about Kukki Taekwondo, when I simply highlight the many good things Gen Choi did with his Taekwon-Do.
I am not sure why you keep ignoring that & never respond to those distinct points.
I can only imagine that you can bring yourself to give any positive credit as thinking about Gen Choi, because of your feelings & viewpoint of him, causes you some emotional reaction. (Forgive me but I forgot exactly how you explained it)

 

[KarateMomUSA]

It's not so much that General Choi didn't participate during the mid 50's and beyond, but rather it is the extent and nature of his "contributions". I simply feel that it is wrong to allow lies to go unanswered. That and the fact that karatemom (what a name for a General Choi cheerleader) takes information that I share and then misconstrues it in an effort to prove that General Choi is the greatest thing since sliced bread. In the meantime, his ITF followers find themselves in organizations that are subject to constant fragmentation and disintegration. They are the real victims in this sad story. As a Chung Do Kwan member, I do empathize with these ITF members and try to help them if I can, just like I helped the ITF practitioners in my area. But maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I should just leave them alone and let them be where they are. I know that I do not enjoy thinking about General Choi because all it does is bring forth chaotic thoughts mixed with bold faced lies. For someone like me who is interested in truthful exchanges, it is distasteful to have to deal with so much falsifications and misrepresentations.

Again Gen Choi did make contributions in the formative years of TKD. But what he did with his so called private organization is actually pretty amazing. Sorry that some can not see that or are so hesitant to acknowledge it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl Weiss
I can't speak to the accuracy of GM Cho's claim about being "allowed" to teach but it wouldcertainly seem inaccurate since by 1972 here in Chicago there were at least 6 Korean born instructors teaching ITF TKD among them Han Cha Kyo, Nam Tae Hi and KS Shin.

Let's take those three. Were they "sent" by General Choi to spread "his" Taekwon-Do in the United States, or did they immigrate to the US because they wanted to live in the US?

I have no idea. One is still around and I can ask, but this info was not relavent to the postvis a vis who was allowed to teach.

 

[puunui]

On the other hand, I don't expect the KKW to say anything remotely similar to such sentiments (although it was great to see that some of the ITF pioneers were given a much overdue recognition last year). While the ITF, especially under GM Choi, has made modest gains in schools and students in South Korea it is still a small presence and will never have anywhere near the influence or size that the KKW does (which is fine by me, frankly). I very much doubt that the KKW will feel that such a small presence will warrant any sort of rapprochment. I could defintiely be wrong but would be very surprised if this were to happen on any sort of large scale.

In South Korea, the KTA mandate is that you must have Kukkiwon 4th Dan or higher and pass the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in order to obtain a license to teach Taekwondo. If you don't have those two things, they will shut your dojang down.