A Brief History of Taekwon-Do by General Choi

[puunui]

It appears that he was not with Gen Choi, nor I sure he had much exposure to those doing Original TKD.

Again, Original Taekwondo was Chung Do Kwan Taekwondo. When the name was created in 1954, General Choi hadn't made any of his tul yet, and the curriculum of both the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan was the Chung Do Kwan curriculum. So again, Original Taekwondo was Chung Do Kwan Taekwondo.

 

[puunui]

The KKW at the time was still led by the man that the south Korean Natioanl Assemby's new law made inelligible to head the KKW, in their attempt to clean up south Korean TKD which is very important to Korea & Koreans.

Wrong. Again. The new law was put into effect so that the Kukkiwon would fall under the ROK Ministry for Culture, Sport and Tourism. It was purely so that the Kukkiwon would be a Korean governmental entity, something that Dr. Un Yong KIM fought by the way from the earliest days of the Kukkiwon. In the beginning stages of building the Kukkiwon, the Korean government offered to pay at least part of the construction costs and was also willing to appropriate money every year to the maintenance and growth of the Kukkiwon. Dr. Kim declined and stated that it is important that the Kukkiwon remain independent of the Korean government.

By the way, there is a lawsuit pending regarding whether the Korean government takeover of the Kukkiwon was legal. There should be a ruling on that this year sometime.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Again, Original Taekwondo was Chung Do Kwan Taekwondo. When the name was created in 1954, General Choi hadn't made any of his tul yet, and the curriculum of both the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan was the Chung Do Kwan curriculum. So again, Original Taekwondo was Chung Do Kwan Taekwondo.

How much was Gen. Choi exposed to original Taekwondo? Since he wasn't even a student of the CDK, just had honorary rank.

 

[puunui]

I have not spewed any misinformation about Gen Choi.

Yes you have. Repeatedly. Try rereading some of the discussions. Now you are spewing misinformation about Kukki Taekwondo. You don't hear me commenting, rephrasing or explaining the latest ITF ongoings. That's because in general I try not to speak about things that I do not know.

Nor do I lie & I avoid any use of negative writing in any of the postings.

I don't know if you are intentionally lying or it is more of a reading comprehension issue with you. And you have used negative writings in your postings -- try rereading your posts in regard to GM LEE Chong Woo, Dr. KIM Un Yong or the latest on GM LEE Seung Wan.

I also never said Gen Choi was the pinnacle of the Taekwondo world. In fact I said often & I will repeat again that he had little if anything to do with Kukki TKD & he was a thorn in their side that even fought against some of the things they were trying to do.

He did have a lot to do with Kukki Taekwondo, if you read and believe his autobiography. Or he strongly tried, by insisting everyone learn his Chang Hon tul because he was the Founder and only he could say what is or isn't Taekwondo.

What I have spoken about in positive terms is Gen Choi's contributions & accomplishments in his Original or Chang Hon TKD, which are many & have impacted millions of students around the world. This has nothing to do with Kukki TKD. but yet you still argue about Kukki Taekwondo, when I simply highlight the many good things Gen Choi did with his Taekwon-Do.

All his efforts to spread his Chang Hon Taekwon-Do (NOT original Taekwondo) end up hurting Taekwondo because it creates disunity, and confusion. But in spite of this, you have the nerve to say the Kukkiwon should recognize General Choi and all his "accomplishments". If you want to go hang out with the ITF and have everyone celebrate whatever great thing you feel he did then fine, but frankly it is insulting and unrealistic to expect the Kukkiwon or the pioneers to do the same.

I am not sure why you keep ignoring that & never respond to those distinct points.

I have responded to your points. Numerous times.

I can only imagine that you can bring yourself to give any positive credit as thinking about Gen Choi, because of your feelings & viewpoint of him, causes you some emotional reaction. (Forgive me but I forgot exactly how you explained it)

I do think you may have memory issues, as well as reading comprehension issues.

As far as I am concerned, the Taekwondo world would have been much better off if General Choi had never come around. Everything he did caused disruption, chaos and turmoil. General Choi is to the KTA/WTF/Kukkiwon what Herb Perez and Ronda Sweet are to the USTU/USAT -- everything they touch, turns to crap.

GM LEE Won Kuk said he blames himself for General Choi's entrance into the Taekwondo world, because he said that he asked General Choi to look out and help the Chung Do Kwan if he could, just prior to GM Lee's move back to Japan before the Korean War. That is how he got his "in" with the Chung Do Kwan, in case you ever wondered.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just so you are aware, Rhonda Sweet is a member here on this site.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

puunui Rhonda Sweet is a member here on this board and we should try to keep all converstation polite and respectful towards our members. To be fair and honest about USTU or USAT blame the high people not the litle one's that really do not have a voice in any matters that either org. does.

Just for the record not trying to stict up for anybody just trying to keep the peace ona great board and decussion.

 

[puunui]

puunui Rhonda Sweet is a member here on this board and we should try to keep all converstation polite and respectful towards our members. To be fair and honest about USTU or USAT blame the high people not the litle one's that really do not have a voice in any matters that either org. does.

I know she is a member of this message board, and that was respectful, believe me. And you are not being fair and honest about the USTU. My USTU Club # is 10, which means I was there before Ronda Sweet and I saw her entire career in the USTU. And I have all the relevant documents from the point in time when the USTU got transmuted into USAT. So I know exactly what happened. I was there. Were you?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I know she is a member of this message board, and that was respectful, believe me. And you are not being fair and honest about the USTU. My USTU Club # is 10, which means I was there before Ronda Sweet and I saw her entire career in the USTU. And I have all the relevant documents from the point in time when the USTU got transmuted into USAT. So I know exactly what happened. I was there. Were you?

Irrelevant. You might want to read the terms of service (1.10.3 in particular). Just a heads up.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

In South Korea, the KTA mandate is that you must have Kukkiwon 4th Dan or higher and pass the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in order to obtain a license to teach Taekwondo. If you don't have those two things, they will shut your dojang down.

That is my understanding. One of the ways that they can get around this is to have the dojang run by a 4th Dan & above licensed KKW instructor that converted to or adopted the ITF syllabus or incorporated it into the teaching.
Another problem in sout Korean is that ITF TKD is looked at by some as communist TKD. So that nasty stigma is also difficult to overcome.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Again, Original Taekwondo was Chung Do Kwan Taekwondo. When the name was created in 1954, General Choi hadn't made any of his tul yet, and the curriculum of both the Chung Do Kwan and Oh Do Kwan was the Chung Do Kwan curriculum. So again, Original Taekwondo was Chung Do Kwan Taekwondo.

Good point & the distinction I would make is that the ODK was the original TKD, led by CDK instructors that were developing a different system from what they learned at the CDK. Furthermore we know from history, that even the CDK accepted the name Tae Soo Do.
It was the ODK that named TKD & applied it continuously to the new system that they were developing. They are the only kwan with the unbroken use of the name TKD. This TKD is obviously different from Kukki TKD, so hence it is the original TKD.
If the CDK is the original TKD, then Funakoshi Sensei is the founder.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
The KKW at the time was still led by the man that the south Korean Natioanl Assemby's new law made inelligible to head the KKW, in their attempt to clean up south Korean TKD which is very important to Korea & Koreans.

Wrong. Again. The new law was put into effect so that the Kukkiwon would fall under the ROK Ministry for Culture, Sport and Tourism. It was purely so that the Kukkiwon would be a Korean governmental entity, something that Dr. Un Yong KIM fought by the way from the earliest days of the Kukkiwon. In the beginning stages of building the Kukkiwon, the Korean government offered to pay at least part of the construction costs and was also willing to appropriate money every year to the maintenance and growth of the Kukkiwon. Dr. Kim declined and stated that it is important that the Kukkiwon remain independent of the Korean government.
By the way, there is a lawsuit pending regarding whether the Korean government takeover of the Kukkiwon was legal. There should be a ruling on that this year sometime.

Again, semantics. Of course the south Korean govt wanted to takeover TKD, as it is their national sport & very important to Korea & Koreans. Since it was rocked by corruption & used as a means to an end by nasty Korean politics, reformed was needed & that is what they did. One may not think that this reform was needed or needed to be done this way, but again, that may be interpretation of those politics.
I also think that the KKW becoming an official govt entity, will be another reason why the WTF will make some more distance from them.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

How much was Gen. Choi exposed to original Taekwondo? Since he wasn't even a student of the CDK, just had honorary rank.

Gen Choi was an educated man that trained in karate & knew of Taek Kyon. He was asked by the CDK founder himself to look after or help out with the CDK. This of course was prompted by Gen Choi's powerful position at the time. (Yes there goes the politics again)!
However GM Lee Won Kuk, who also learned karate in Japan, was not teaching TKD, he was teaching Korean karate, as were basically all the others, including Gen Choi.
It was Gen Choi who came up with the umbrella term of TKD which was rejected by most. Those that adopted it or accepted it, were those following him. He was of course asked to help out with the CDK by their won founder. Additionally the CDK was very influential. In the army, Gen Choi used many CDK instructors to teach TangSuDo & to help him devise original TKD, which took place on Jeju Island & then in the ODK. He even had his soldiers shout Tae Kwon when they saluted each other in training. The others were simply not using TKD. They preferred Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do, Kwon Bup or other names they made up, Hwa So Do, Su Bak Do etc.
We also know that in 1961, these Koreans rallied around the new compromise name of Tae Soo Do.
So history shows clearly how TKD developed, all the different styles, including the 2 main ones, Chang Hon & Kukki. History also shows how & when the name TKD was introduced & who used it & when did they use it. Some used it & dropped. Some never wanted to use it, but conceded, while others did not. Gen Choi, however & his followers, did use it continuously from 1954/5 till present day. Many may not want to acknowledge that, but it is the case. They were the ones who originally used it & used it continuously, uninterrupted, as they applied it to a new system that they were developing 1st in the military, then though the ITF.

So we know that Chang Hon & Kukki TKD are the 2 major styles of TKD.
We know of the many differences between the 2 major TKD entities.
We know that Chang Hon TKD was developed in the ODK which was formed in 1954. We know that the name TKD was offered in Dec of 1954 & approved on April 11, 1955. We know that the ODK adopted the name TKD & applied it to the system that they were developing under the leadership of Gen Choi.

We also know that Kukki TKD was the result of the unification of the major kwans in Korea. We know that they used the name Tae Soo Do in 1961 to replace the names Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do, Kwon Bup, Hwa Soo Do, Su Bak Do & even TKD. It was not till 1965 when at the urging of Gen Choi, which by the way resulted in him being forced out due to his authoritative means, that they forever dropped the Tae Soo Do name & used TKD.

It is plain to see who was the original TKD & who applied that name loyally, without any interruption or abandonment.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I don't know if you are intentionally lying or it is more of a reading comprehension issue with you. And you have used negative writings in your postings -- try rereading your posts in regard to GM LEE Chong Woo, Dr. KIM Un Yong or the latest on GM LEE Seung Wan.

I & I think many be be less informed about GM Lee Seung Wan. I do know that he was at least a 2x convicted criminal according to south Korean law. I also know that he was made in-illegible for his KKW position as a result of the new law passed by the Korean National National Assembly to clean up the scandals & corruption with TKD in Korea. One of his arrests was for interference in a previous KTA election process.
I have very high regards for GM Lee Chong Woo, who may be 1 of the most significant & most influential figures in Kukki TKD's development. I would never speak negatively of him. I have repeated & pointed to his own words.
I have very high regards for Dr Kim Un Yong, who may be 1 of the most significant & most influential figures in Kukki TKD's development & the Olympic movement. I also do not wish to speak negatively of him, as he is probably the most important person with Olympic TKD. Dr Kim calls himself the father or modern TKD. I have only wrote about his legal problems, which he was arrested for, convicted of & served time in prison for. I also acknowledged how those "nasty Korean politics" played a part in.
You however seem only to be able to see how those nasty Korean politics affected 1 side, your side! I have been very fair & open minded, very consistent.

All his efforts to spread his Chang Hon Taekwon-Do (NOT original Taekwondo) end up hurting Taekwondo because it creates disunity, and confusion. But in spite of this, you have the nerve to say the Kukkiwon should recognize General Choi and all his "accomplishments". If you want to go hang out with the ITF and have everyone celebrate whatever great thing you feel he did then fine, but frankly it is insulting and unrealistic to expect the Kukkiwon or the pioneers to do the same.
As far as I am concerned, the Taekwondo world would have been much better off if General Choi had never come around. Everything he did caused disruption, chaos and turmoil. General Choi is to the KTA/WTF/Kukkiwon what Herb Perez and Ronda Sweet are to the USTU/USAT -- everything they touch, turns to crap.

This sounds like more personal attacks than anything constructive. Unity can not have a hope of happening, if we don't 1st stop the negativity. I am not Gen Choi. I don't wish to engage in negativity. I simply look to deal with the positive. The positive of what all the TKD leaders of done. If any unity is to happen, we must stop the negativity. Then we simply acknowledge the good others have done, all the others. Then we credit it them with what they did & show how some of those things worked against unity. But now, acknowledging the past, understanding it, allows us to move forward in a better, more effective & harmonious way. This is how unity can have a chance to happen.

GM LEE Won Kuk said he blames himself for General Choi's entrance into the Taekwondo world, because he said that he asked General Choi to look out and help the Chung Do Kwan if he could, just prior to GM Lee's move back to Japan before the Korean War. That is how he got his "in" with the Chung Do Kwan, in case you ever wondered.

Yes of course, but remember it wasn't the TKD world, but the Korean karate world. It was Gen Choi who got the TKD world ball rolling!

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
I am not sure why you keep ignoring that & never respond to those distinct points.

I have responded to your points. Numerous times.

No you have not responded on point to the postive things that Gen choi did, not even when I numbered them 1 to 5.
I can do it again, but am sure you would either ignore them or not respond on point.

 

[puunui]

Yes of course, but remember it wasn't the TKD world, but the Korean karate world. It was Gen Choi who got the TKD world ball rolling!

And you know what? Nobody cares. I know I certainly don't. But if you wish to continue spewing misinformation, then be my guest. I'm done with this conversation. I was done two weeks ago.

 

[miguksaram]

Gen Choi was an educated man that trained in karate & knew of Taek Kyon.

Actually there is no real proof of his Taekkyon connection. In fact there is supposedly a recording of him stating he never learned it or someone high up in the Taekkyon food chain saying he never learned. it. As for his Karate it is still speculative in some circles to what rank he received overall.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Actually there is no real proof of his Taekkyon connection. In fact there is supposedly a recording of him stating he never learned it or someone high up in the Taekkyon food chain saying he never learned. it.

High up in the Taekkyon food chain? It was a game when Gen. Choi was a boy. It had more in common with darts or baseball in that respect than with an actual martial art. Gen. Choi stated in an interview that he only learned some basic techniques from his calligraphy teacher.

As for his Karate it is still speculative in some circles to what rank he received overall.

Yes, some people don't take his word on what rank he earned while in Japan. Some people also don't think Choi, Yong Sul studied Daito Ryu because he claims to have lost the scrolls he received from Takeda Sokaku.

Then again, other people critisize him for his style "obviously" being no different from karate because he included Japanese kata in his 1965 book. So obviously he didn't know karate. Wait. Never mind.

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

Yes, some people don't take his word on what rank he earned while in Japan. Some people also don't think Choi, Yong Sul studied Daito Ryu because he claims to have lost the scrolls he received from Takeda Sokaku.

I have a photo of GM CHOI Yong Sul and Takeda Sensei together.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Double post.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I have a photo of GM CHOI Yong Sul and Takeda Sensei together.

Fantastic. Do you have his lost mokuroku?

I've seen a picture of Gen. Choi at the Shotokan. But not his dan certificates.

Pax,

Chris