A Brief History of Taekwon-Do by General Choi

[KarateMomUSA]

I think a lot of people noticed. I also think it is quite rude to ask me questions, expecting an answer, I answer, ask the very same questions, and the person completely ignores it. It cuts tremendously into the poster's credibility and goes directly to my point that this discussion has been mainly one sided.

Sir I personally am very eager to learn. I do respect your knowledge & value your very insightful input. I am so very glad that you participate in this forum & share what you do. I have also tried to be courteous in each & every post.I am not sure if I have ever been anything but very respectful. If there is something that is even remotely close to being disrespectful, please let me know or anyone else for that matter. I will gladly & most humbly retract it & make amends as best as I can via this venue.
As to not answering your question, let me say that a day didn't even pass yet.
Maybe let me respond first by asking you what do you think?

 

[Twin Fist]

That might be true if Taekwondo were a carbon copy of Shotokan, but it isn't. Also, which Shotokan are we speaking about, the Shotokan from pre 1944, or post WWII Shotokan, because the two are not the same.

till about 1960, it WAS an exact copy of shotokan. For that matter, at that time, it wasnt even KNOWN as TKD, it was called Tang Soo Do by most people, or just korean karate

 

[puunui]

till about 1960, it WAS an exact copy of shotokan. For that matter, at that time, it wasnt even KNOWN as TKD, it was called Tang Soo Do by most people, or just korean karate

You speak as if Taekwondo back in 1960 was a singular entity. It wasn't. There were five main schools, two of which were based purely on pre WWII Shotokan (Chung Do Kwan and Song Moo Kwan) but the other three had elements of non-Shotokan based curriculum. As for the name Tang Soo Do (a name which was which was never used by the Shotokan), other schools called their style by other names. Your statement above is overly simplistic and therefore erroneous.

 

[puunui]

Sir I personally am very eager to learn. I do respect your knowledge & value your very insightful input. I am so very glad that you participate in this forum & share what you do. I have also tried to be courteous in each & every post.I am not sure if I have ever been anything but very respectful. If there is something that is even remotely close to being disrespectful, please let me know or anyone else for that matter. I will gladly & most humbly retract it & make amends as best as I can via this venue.
As to not answering your question, let me say that a day didn't even pass yet.
Maybe let me respond first by asking you what do you think?

I think you need to find yourself another teacher besides me.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I think you need to find yourself another teacher besides me.

I will repeat that I have learned from your posts & hope to continue to have you teach me & others here. But make no mistake about it, I do have more than 1 teacher & do cherish what all of them have shared with me.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

till about 1960, it WAS an exact copy of shotokan. For that matter, at that time, it wasnt even KNOWN as TKD, it was called Tang Soo Do by most people, or just korean karate

No by 1960 the move from karate was already underway, but it was still very closely related. Of course Original TKD was absolutely know as TKD & was so since 1955. The problem is that it was Gen Choi & his follwers that were only using the name. The Kukki guys in 1960 were still using the karate or fist based names. In fact in 1961 they adopted the name Tae Soo Do & did not use the TKD till 1965, some even later.
Tang Soo Do is still alive & well today in many places around the world. Many people still call that Korean Karate, but it is not TKD, even though some TKD schools do resemble Tang Soo Do.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

You speak as if Taekwondo back in 1960 was a singular entity. It wasn't. There were five main schools, two of which were based purely on pre WWII Shotokan (Chung Do Kwan and Song Moo Kwan) but the other three had elements of non-Shotokan based curriculum. As for the name Tang Soo Do (a name which was which was never used by the Shotokan), other schools called their style by other names. Your statement above is overly simplistic and therefore erroneous.

Well actually it was pretty singular, as only Gen Choi's follwers were even using the name TKD. The others were still using the other names & when the miltary coup took place on May 16, 1961 & issued the military govt decree to unify, they did so a couple of months later in 1961 under the new name Tae Soo Do. They forcefully rejected the name TKD, as that was the name of their arch rival, Satan Redux's martial art & was so since 1955. They then fought him again in 1965, but I guess the dark side & his black power won out, as they finally started after 10 years to jump on the TKD bandwagon. Please also remember that the TKD bandwagon was already on display around the world in several countries that even had TKD students before the Kukki TKD pioneers were even TKD!

 

[puunui]

Well actually it was pretty singular, as only Gen Choi's follwers were even using the name TKD.

Again, for the last time, the Chung Do Kwan was never "General Choi's followers" and they were using the name Taekwondo. Also, the Chung Do Kwan never adopted the Chang Hon forms, ever, although individuals did.

The others were still using the other names & when the miltary coup took place on May 16, 1961 & issued the military govt decree to unify, they did so a couple of months later in 1961 under the new name Tae Soo Do. They forcefully rejected the name TKD, as that was the name of their arch rival, Satan Redux's martial art & was so since 1955.

I don't if it was a "forceful rejection" so much as it was an objection because they did not participate in the naming process.

They then fought him again in 1965, but I guess the dark side & his black power won out, as they finally started after 10 years to jump on the TKD bandwagon. Please also remember that the TKD bandwagon was already on display around the world in several countries that even had TKD students before the Kukki TKD pioneers were even TKD!

I realize what your agenda is, but is simply wasn't true, at least with the vigor in which you wish to imply. General Choi was a hinderence to the process, and all the things you attempt to give him credit for, are the very things that caused chaos, turmoil and conflict. Taekwondo would have been better off for everyone, including his followers, if General Choi had never made an appearance on the Taekwondo scene.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I realize what your agenda is, but is simply wasn't true, at least with the vigor in which you wish to imply. General Choi was a hinderence to the process, and all the things you attempt to give him credit for, are the very things that caused chaos, turmoil and conflict. Taekwondo would have been better off for everyone, including his followers, if General Choi had never made an appearance on the Taekwondo scene.

That is certainly a widely held perspective, particularly among those who were disenfranchised early and then jumped on the bandwagon or the new bandwagon following successful efforts by General Choi to dispatch and recruit instructors throughout and around the world. AFAIAC it is merely sour grapes.

It is also part of the genius of the KKW when they reinvented TKD. Not to give any individual any significant degree of credit or power in order to control TKD if one person should become persona non grata for any reason.

Without the pre KKW spread of TKD the KKW would have been deprived of a huge launching pad for their system put in place by General Choi. Without that we would in all likelyhood be doing Karate, Kung Fu or NinJitsu now.

 

[puunui]

Without the pre KKW spread of TKD the KKW would have been deprived of a huge launching pad for their system put in place by General Choi. Without that we would in all likelyhood be doing Karate, Kung Fu or NinJitsu now.

No, actually you would probably be doing Kukki Taekwondo right now. You yourself said in a post most recently that there were few American born instructors out there during the 50's and 60's, and by extension, very few Korean born Taekwondo instructors as well. The way you make it sound, General Choi was out there sending thousands of instructors all over the world in the sixties, which isn't true. Perhaps he made a difference in Vietnam, or Malaysia, but those were never WTF powerhouses. In fact, I have a listing of all KTA affiliated dojang worldwide from 1972, and it shows that Taekwondo already had their launching pad in place, with 690 Korean born instructors teaching in 36 countries.

According to GM Hee Il CHO, only the top two graduates from the ITF Instructor Course were allowed to leave Korea to teach. Assuming you have ten classes per year (a big assumption) for six years, that's 120 instructors that the ITF pushed through from 1966 to 1972 and exported to the world.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Again, for the last time, the Chung Do Kwan was never "General Choi's followers" and they were using the name Taekwondo. Also, the Chung Do Kwan never adopted the Chang Hon forms, ever, although individuals did.

I guess we have a difference of viewpoint of what following or followers were! It is clear that the CDK was at the meeting in the mid 1950s that decided on the name TKD, which of course was put forth by Gen Choi, so in essence or in a way they followed him. Gen choi, because of his powerful position in the military, which by the way, history teaches us that in developing countries, often plays a vitally important role. This was of course the case in south Korea. So again we see how they did look to him for the support he was able to provide. They followed him in 1959 when he took many of them abroad when they demonstrated aspects his TKD there. They had instructors under him teaching in the military & 2 or 3 prominent members of the CDK have high profile places in his 1959 book.
So while GMs Uhm Won Kyu & Nam Tae Hi wanted the name TKD in 1961, it was GM Uhm that embraced the name Tae Soo Do, even using it on the CDK literature & certificates up till at least 1965.
So yes, Gen Choi came up with the name TKD & it was only those in the ODK & those from the CDK that were loyal to him, follwoed him or needed him for some aspect, that actually used the name TKD.
I would love to see evidence of the CDK using the name of TKD consistently on their own, minus Gen Choi's input or influence.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I don't if it was a "forceful rejection" so much as it was an objection because they did not participate in the naming process.

Sorry but I think only the military & CDK were represented at the naming meeting in the mid 1950s. However I think all the 5 original kwans were with the ODK, hence the term 6 early kwans in the 1959 meeting that formed the Korean Taekwon-Do Association. Of course in 1961, they rejected the name of TKD & settled on the new compromise name of Tae Soo Do.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

General Choi was a hinderence to the process, and all the things you attempt to give him credit for, are the very things that caused chaos, turmoil and conflict. Taekwondo would have been better off for everyone, including his followers, if General Choi had never made an appearance on the Taekwondo scene.

Yes maybe he was a hindrance to the Kukki TKD process. I stipulated that long ago & see how that was the case in many aspects. I even made it clear that he did in fact work against them, fighting their work towards Olympic recognition. So I understand that clearly.
You however, because of your personal feelings & what you have learned from those he was working against, seem to have not only disdain for the man, hesitant to give him any credit early on in those formative years & wish to actually discredit him & even slur him for the great accomplishments he achieved in his style of TKD & how that contributed in a positive way to many people around the world.
That not only seems disingenuous, but also not in the spirit of the martial arts.

May I ask, do you have such views or hard feelings towards any other martial art leader?
Or any other martial artist period?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

No, actually you would probably be doing Kukki Taekwondo right now. You yourself said in a post most recently that there were few American born instructors out there during the 50's and 60's, and by extension, very few Korean born Taekwondo instructors as well. The way you make it sound, General Choi was out there sending thousands of instructors all over the world in the sixties, which isn't true. Perhaps he made a difference in Vietnam, or Malaysia, but those were never WTF powerhouses. In fact, I have a listing of all KTA affiliated dojang worldwide from 1972, and it shows that Taekwondo already had their launching pad in place, with 690 Korean born instructors teaching in 36 countries.
According to GM Hee Il CHO, only the top two graduates from the ITF Instructor Course were allowed to leave Korea to teach. Assuming you have ten classes per year (a big assumption) for six years, that's 120 instructors that the ITF pushed through from 1966 to 1972 and exported to the world.

No we would be doing Tang Su Do or Tae Soo Do, not Kukki TKD!
There simply would be no TKD without Gen Choi. Many may have stayed with Tang Su Do if they wanted a martial art or less of sports focus of Tae Soo Do. This was a complaint of GM Hwang Kee & Dr Yoon.
Now GM Cho Hee Il may have said that, but I do not believe that is accurate, at least according to his teacher at the course he attended & the other chief & asst instructors of those courses, which also included English. Please also keep in mind that many instructors were already dispatched by Gen Choi & his team even before the ITF was even formed in Seoul back in 1966, 7 years before the WTF replaced it.

 

[puunui]

I guess we have a difference of viewpoint of what following or followers were! It is clear that the CDK was at the meeting in the mid 1950s that decided on the name TKD, which of course was put forth by Gen Choi, so in essence or in a way they followed him.

At the 1954 demonstration in front of President Rhee, it was he who exclaimed "That's Taekkyon". From there came the effort to find hanmoon characters for Taekkyon. For course there wasn't any, so they went with Taekwon instead. Had there been hanmoon characters for Taekkyon, would General Choi still taken credit for the name? In fact it was the President of Korea who started all that and it was the President who approved the name. So the Chung Do Kwan and GM Son was following what President Rhee wanted, given his nationalistic position. Everyone was following President Rhee's lead, including General Choi. This is what GM HONG Jong Pyo meant when he said General Choi was trying to kiss up to President Rhee with the Chang Hon forms.

Gen choi, because of his powerful position in the military, which by the way, history teaches us that in developing countries, often plays a vitally important role. This was of course the case in south Korea. So again we see how they did look to him for the support he was able to provide. They followed him in 1959 when he took many of them abroad when they demonstrated aspects his TKD there.

Everyone who went to Vietnam in 1959 were in the ROK military.

They had instructors under him teaching in the military & 2 or 3 prominent members of the CDK have high profile places in his 1959 book. So while GMs Uhm Won Kyu & Nam Tae Hi wanted the name TKD in 1961, it was GM Uhm that embraced the name Tae Soo Do, even using it on the CDK literature & certificates up till at least 1965.

That cuts against your position that the Chung Do Kwan "followed" General Choi, since the Chung Do Kwan used the name Taesoodo during the Taesoodo period.

So yes, Gen Choi came up with the name TKD & it was only those in the ODK & those from the CDK that were loyal to him, follwoed him or needed him for some aspect, that actually used the name TKD.

You add nothing to the discussion and only say the same thing over and over in all your posts. So what if General Choi came up with the name, if he did? And he doesn't say that by the way in his 1965 book, all he says is that he proposed the name, not that he created it.

Another point which you fail to recognize or acknowledge is the fact that the Oh Do Kwan did not follow General Choi but instead they were represented in the KTA committee which created the Palgwae, Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae. GM HYUN Jong Myung, who was Oh Do Kwan Jang at the time, was the representative on that KTA committee. Even now, the Oh Do Kwan still exists and they advocate the Kukkiwon poomsae, not the Chang Hon Tul.

Thirty years ago, most Taekwondoin knew the name General Choi, through his books. Today, less know his name, and tomorrow, no one will know who he is. I realize you don't want that to happen, but that is the direction in which the Taekwondo world is moving. And it's probably for the best.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

No actually his name will be know, as the history comes to the surface. It is inevitable, as we know longer have the propaganda being put forth. The gates are open.

 

[puunui]

No actually his name will be know, as the history comes to the surface. It is inevitable, as we know longer have the propaganda being put forth. The gates are open.

You might be right. The gates are open and now people are coming forward to tell the truth about General Choi, and nothing you can do will prevent that. I mean we have people who read Killing Art, people with ITF backgrounds on MT say they dislike General Choi after reading that book. And that book was written in favor of General Choi.

 

[Twin Fist]

who the hell is this guy that tries to sound like he was there??

 

[KarateMomUSA]

You might be right. The gates are open and now people are coming forward to tell the truth about General Choi, and nothing you can do will prevent that. I mean we have people who read Killing Art, people with ITF backgrounds on MT say they dislike General Choi after reading that book. And that book was written in favor of General Choi.

You can try to twist or confuse the issue, but we have to get back to the fact, it doesn't matter how someone likes Gen Choi. What matters is that the accomplishments that he did with his Original TKD can not be ignored & won't be ignored in the recording of history. It is also not important if people read The Killing Art, The Untold History of TKD & come to find that Gen Choi had a difficult personality & acted in a way that upset people, as that is accurate. However they will also come to see what he did with his Original TK-D for so many around the world & how the nasty Korean politics played such a role. This not only benefited the students, but Korea, as his TK-D also helped play a great role for introducing people around the world to Korea, Korean language, history & culture. Even the south Korean govt will come to realize this.
Imagine millions of people around the world coming to know Korea through his Original TK-D. Yes it is undeniable that he will receive proper credit, as will the many members of his team.

 

[Earl Weiss]

According to GM Hee Il CHO, only the top two graduates from the ITF Instructor Course were allowed to leave Korea to teach. Assuming you have ten classes per year (a big assumption) for six years, that's 120 instructors that the ITF pushed through from 1966 to 1972 and exported to the world.

I can't speak to the accuracy of GM Cho's claim about being "allowed" to teach but it wouldcertainly seem inaccurate since by 1972 here in Chicago there were at least 6 Korean born instructors teaching ITF TKD among them Han Cha Kyo, Nam Tae Hi and KS Shin.
As we know, others like Jhoon Rhee were "Recruited" so obviously some like hi were teaching without having been thru the course.