A Brief History of Taekwon-Do by General Choi

[KarateMomUSA]

Anyway, my point is Killing Art rings of the same cloak and dagger tale. Though the author tries to play a "unbiased" roll it is clear this is a pro-Choi book.

It does seem like a cloak & dagger tale, as TKD's history & how it was shaped, influenced by the nasty Korean politics & how it developed in the context of the times that it was developed in, yes post WWII, not 2,000 years ago, was like that. This is what is in my view the greatest accomplishment of the work. Please tell me 1 other TKD author or researcher that dug through hundreds, if not thousands of Koreagate scandal pages recorded by the US Congress & FBI to come up with these links & paint the picture of the all important context of those times?

Like him or not, Gen Choi, because of his political views which were highly vocal & very critical of the military dictatorships, became the target of these military dictators! What is so hard to believe about that? History is filled with examples of what dictators do to those in political dissent, even ex-pats! Readers do realize that another leading political opponent who lived abroad & spoke out against the military dictatorships was about to be killed when the American CIA found out & Washington stepped in to save his life. That man eventually became a democratically elected civilian president of south Korea who then went on to win the Nobel Prize for Peace. Readers should also know that Gen choi was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

One can not really or more fully understand the confusion & distortions that have plagued TKD's history without being informed of this all important context. While a book that is well researched can be viewed as "pro-Choi", it is really just pro what happened, who made it happen, when did they make it happen & where did it happen.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Valid point, but you must include the all important context, pages about history that has little to do with the present day formation of a modern Korean martial art/sport & a brief paragraph or 2 about the all important formative years when they actually created TKD. That is done n purpose, as a main architect states in his own words (GM Lee).

The history section of the website, if put into a word document, would take up about two pages, maybe three. And of course it was done on purpose.

I say it was to promote their national agenda & hide the hated Japanese karate connection.

Maybe that is the reason. Or maybe it was not so much to hide something as it was to emphasize something else. Or maybe both. Or maybe neither. We're talking about between two and three full pages of information on a website with no citations. It was not intended to be a scholarly work but to look cool on a website.

Both! The karate roots are real & can't be hidden.

Different topic, but I haven't heard Puunui argue that the karate roots were 'fake' in any way.

Then by extension people like Gen Choi & the 6 others that studied martial arts abroad & brought it back to Korea & played a role in opening those 6 early kwans will be credited. Just to make it clear, I think all 7 Koreans were dissed, not just Gen Choi. All 7 deserve credit, as do their 2nd generation leaders that have also been dissed. Once you tell the truth about the formative years, you can't help but credit people like Gen Choi. Some may deserve more credit than others, but that is another topic. I am just for giving credit where credit is due. I find nothing wrong with that & am amazed about the lengths that some people will go to, just to stop some from getting deserved credit. Now just to restate & make clear, TKD has shared roots from a common start. Once the paths of development took 2 major roads, Gen Choi of course would not play a part in the Kukki TKD creation & in fact it would be historically accurate to tell how he even interfered with that development.

You are way too worried about credit being given on a very brief website historical overveiw. It was obvious that they were trying to emphasize Korean martial roots. Nobody was individually credited. There are more comprehensive and schollarly works available for those who want to dig deeper.

Part of this issue is that I think that you, like many others, have a need or desire to have a distinct 'founder' to trace your lineage to. Aikido, Judo, BJJ, and Karate all have 'the founder' to refer to and to wax philosophical about. Kukki taekwondo has no single founder. Chang Hon taekwondo has General Choi, who was either a founder or a leader who can be looked to by ITF and Chang Hon taekwondo practitioners.

Kukki taekwondo does not have a singel founder, so no attempt is made to credit anyone. ITF/Chang hon folks have four federations plus a myriad of independents that all spash the general's name up in lights as the founder and/or father of taekwondo with scant or less mention of the Kukki pioneers, so I really don't see why the KKF not mentioning him (or anyone else) on their website is bothering you. Be happy with the really cool taekwondo you practice and proud of the lineage that you have.

Again it is the imbalance with so much detail given to the past with little direct connection compared to the formative years when TKD was being "formed". This must be & I believe will be rectified when historians record TKD's history. I am much more concerned with giving credit to the many that deserve it. To me that is just right, plain & simple. How can we not want to credit those that made possible what we & so many do today? Why would we not want to list these Korean heroes so they can receive proper thanks?

Again, it is an incredibly brief website overview, not a definitive and comprehensive history of taekwondo. In less than three full pages, there is no way to give the kind of credit that you are demanding.

The KKW website is intended to tell people what the art is about, not as an historical reference.

Daniel

Edit: I hope that I am not coming off as flippant to you, as that is not my intent.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I didn't get that impression at all. Personally, I came out of reading the book with fairly negative feelings for Choi and his son. The narrative Gillis gives shows many of the early TKD figures as be flawed individuals, sometimes criminally so.

Please look at Korea post WWII in the context of what was happening. Compare it to Afghanistan today & some of the former eastern European nations that struggled with independence when the USSR broke up. When a people are controlled by a force, like the Japanese, Taliban & Soviet communists, an internal battle often ensues when free, as competing factions "compete" for control or to take control. During the initial periods, lawlessness often takes place. This is exactly what happened in Korea at the end of the War.
Gangsters ran the streets. Outside occupation forces led by the US in the south & USSR in the north tried to establish control & exert their influence. Local thugs were aggressive in their attempts to one up others. Soon a civil war broke out that resulted in the largest amount of casualties in the shortest duration of any war in history. The devastation was far reaching & almost total, with around 80% of the country bombed out. The north was brutally governed by a totalitarian regime & still is to this very day. The south was ruled with an iron hand by a puppet govt for 12 years, then a succession of military dictators, until the early 90s, when democratic elections were held & civilian leadership was voted into office.
This coincided with the fall of the USSR's Iron Curtain, which led to an economic collapse in the north as their main benefactor fell apart & flooding caused wide spread famine. This changed the dynamics between the 2 Koreas. It also resulted in removing the chip or ace card that the south Korean former brutal leaders (non-civilian democratically elected) used to rule with an Iron Fist, as the south was constantly under threat of attack from a more healthy north. Now the north depends on outside aid from the south. So the harsh tactics employed in the south were no longer justified or could be explained away as needed due to national security etc.
So we must really understand the all important context, as it gives us much needed insight that is required if we are to sort through & more fully understand this whole mess. Yes Gen Choi, like all humans was flawed. Some of his traits that allowed him to accomplish many great things, also resulted in many people disliking his style & vision. He was an autocrat, much like a dictator with the way he ran his TKD & his ITF. The book also makes this clear, something that many who knew him, knew from 1st hand experience. Many of TKD's leaders have flawed personalities & made mistakes. They were human after all. However none of this should prevent history from recording what happened & this book does a good job of it. It uses numerous sources & has hundreds of footnotes. I think if you check the sources & use the footnotes, you will find that the investigative journalist that wrote the book used at least 2 sources to back up his claims. Another great contribution of this work is to show that TKD did indeed develop along 2 major roads that were different. So after a point in time, their respective histories will start to emerge separately.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The history section of the website, if put into a word document, would take up about two pages, maybe three. And of course it was done on purpose.

Maybe that is the reason. Or maybe it was not so much to hide something as it was to emphasize something else. Or maybe both. Or maybe neither. We're talking about between two and three full pages of information on a website with no citations. It was not intended to be a scholarly work but to look cool on a website.

Again, it is an incredibly brief website overview, not a definitive and comprehensive history of taekwondo. In less than three full pages, there is no way to give the kind of credit that you are demanding.

The KKW website is intended to tell people what the art is about, not as an historical reference.

Daniel

Edit: I hope that I am not coming off as flippant to you, as that is not my intent.

Not at all. I enjoy our exchanges. Now I would respectfully suggest that we look more at the bigger picture: The fabrication that GM Lee Chong Woo says they came up with, was used as a template. You can see it copied or referred to as "the history" of TKD in so many other publications, both on paper & in electronic form. This is what led to the 2,000 year old myth. So many people around the world have been led to believe that TKD is 2,000 years old. We know that this is not true. We also know why it was written. We are the lucky ones. We are better informed.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

You are way too worried about credit being given on a very brief website historical overveiw. It was obvious that they were trying to emphasize Korean martial roots. Nobody was individually credited. There are more comprehensive and schollarly works available for those who want to dig deeper.

Which ones? This is part of the problem. Once any source is listed, someone attacks it as being self serving. The KKW is "the world TKD academy". As such, they should lead with a comprehensive piece on the formative years of TKD. Thats just my opinion, but would anybody disagree with that?

Part of this issue is that I think that you, like many others, have a need or desire to have a distinct 'founder' to trace your lineage to. Aikido, Judo, BJJ, and Karate all have 'the founder' to refer to and to wax philosophical about. Kukki taekwondo has no single founder. Chang Hon taekwondo has General Choi, who was either a founder or a leader who can be looked to by ITF and Chang Hon taekwondo practitioners.

Kukki taekwondo does not have a singel founder, so no attempt is made to credit anyone. ITF/Chang hon folks have four federations plus a myriad of independents that all spash the general's name up in lights as the founder and/or father of taekwondo with scant or less mention of the Kukki pioneers, so I really don't see why the KKF not mentioning him (or anyone else) on their website is bothering you. Be happy with the really cool taekwondo you practice and proud of the lineage that you have.

I do have my personal lineage & am proud of that. I know exactly which of the 7 Koreans that studied abroad my teacher connects to. I also know very well that Gen Choi was the principle founder of the type TKD that I eventually came to embrace. I am also aware of the many Koreans that helped him accomplish what he did. I am also equally vocal that the ITF propaganda put out does a disservice to other TKDin. To me it is no longer either or, but both.
It seems to me that the KKW does not list the many who were responsible for Kukki TKD as it initially was just not allowed, as they had to hide the karate roots & the hated Japanese connection. That no longer is the case. Dr Kim Un Yong was the capable & talented leader of the Kukki TKD movement. He considers himself the father of modern TKD. I think that GMs Lee Chong Woo, Uhm Un Gyu & Lee Nam Suk were the martial artists that led the Kukki TKD movement. They & many others must be listed, credited with their contributions & thanked by all of us & those of us yet to come. The stories of what these great martial artists did much be recorded & save for all eternity. Their time in this place is limited. Too many have already left to the next place. The clock is running not only to get their story, but for them to personally hear, read & feel the thanks of so many around the world.
I was happy to see the WTF credit & formally thank some of the ITF Pioneers for their work. I simply wish more on all sides would be named & thanked.
What is wrong with giving thanks?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Which ones? This is part of the problem. Once any source is listed, someone attacks it as being self serving. The KKW is "the world TKD academy". As such, they should lead with a comprehensive piece on the formative years of TKD. Thats just my opinion, but would anybody disagree with that?

The fact that the guy you are debating with may say that the source is self serving and that others disagree, all on a message board, doesn't apply to any of what I said.

Do you think that you'll see the name of William Crapo Durant splashed all over GM's website? Why not? He essentially made GM into the multi-divisional enitity that became by buying everything around him. Or Alfred P Sloan's name, the man who put it all together into the multi-tiered divisional pricing system after Durant was forced out? Nobody cares, so why bother? Durant's name on a car will not sell vehicles. Even invocations of Harley Earl's name in Buick adds a few years back did nothing to help flagging sales. Unless your name is Porsche, Ferrari, Cunningham, Shelby, Earnhardt, Gordon or Petty, chances are, your name on a car will mean diddly, and I don't mean Bo.

I hate to say it, but aside from a small group of us who are keenly interested, nobody cares, which is why the vast majority of the website is devoted to other aspects of taekwondo.

I do have my personal lineage & am proud of that. I know exactly which of the 7 Koreans that studied abroad my teacher connects to. I also know very well that Gen Choi was the principle founder of the type TKD that I eventually came to embrace. I am also aware of the many Koreans that helped him accomplish what he did. I am also equally vocal that the ITF propaganda put out does a disservice to other TKDin. To me it is no longer either or, but both.
It seems to me that the KKW does not list the many who were responsible for Kukki TKD as it initially was just not allowed, as they had to hide the karate roots & the hated Japanese connection. That no longer is the case. Dr Kim Un Yong was the capable & talented leader of the Kukki TKD movement. He considers himself the father of modern TKD. I think that GMs Lee Chong Woo, Uhm Un Gyu & Lee Nam Suk were the martial artists that led the Kukki TKD movement. They & many others must be listed, credited with their contributions & thanked by all of us & those of us yet to come. The stories of what these great martial artists did much be recorded & save for all eternity. Their time in this place is limited. Too many have already left to the next place. The clock is running not only to get their story, but for them to personally hear, read & feel the thanks of so many around the world.
I was happy to see the WTF credit & formally thank some of the ITF Pioneers for their work. I simply wish more on all sides would be named & thanked.
What is wrong with giving thanks?

Nothing wrong with thanking people at all.

But I think that you need to be realistic about where you expect to see such thanks expressed. Chances are, if its 'the other guy's' website, don't expect to find it, especially if the other guys and your guy parted ways on bad terms.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

I am not sure what you mean. I think all of us are bias in some form. I leave that to others to judge for themselves. If you are speaking in a derogatory fashion about Gen Choi & his personality that is OK as well. But that does not take away from his many accomplishments & what he gave to & left for so many around the world.

I'm speaking in generalities here. However, if someone is telling you "Hey, I heard from about 8 people who grew up with him that he is just no good." Then it goes a bit beyond the person telling you being biased. If they say I heard from this one guy or I heard from this one guy and his friend...then bias will play a role.

 

[puunui]

Personally, I came out of reading the book with fairly negative feelings for Choi and his son.

Try reading his autobiography and see how you feel after that.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I hate to say it, but aside from a small group of us who are keenly interested, nobody cares, which is why the vast majority of the website is devoted to other aspects of taekwondo.

I think you may be right. However now is the time when we are seeing all kinds of new movement & more freedom for things to be sorted out. Many of the flamers, those with the self interests are gone, as is the dictatorships & the restrictions that they had in effect. So historians & other credible writers who have done their homework will produce more concrete info, minus some of the dribble that existed "back in the day".

Nothing wrong with thanking people at all.
But I think that you need to be realistic about where you expect to see such thanks expressed. Chances are, if its 'the other guy's' website, don't expect to find it, especially if the other guys and your guy parted ways on bad terms.

Yes it is great to give thanks, most reasonable & fair minded thinking people will agree with that. The process will of course take time & be done in steps. I would think that getting more info out there would be a good place to start. This will help dispel the 2,000 year old myth & put many Gen Choi's self serving claims into perspective. Information will help people understand why there is all this confusion to begin with.
Once some of this takes place, several entities will then look to address these developments. I would look for the WTF to make further out reach to ITFers, once the political situation between the 2 Koreas settles somewhat. I also think the new TKD Park will start to include the efforts of the ITF in their Park & Museum. I think they both are looking to be more inclusive. Actually the south Korean govt has commissioned journalists to travel the world & bring back stories of the Korean Pioneers, from all styles, so they can forever be preserved for eternity.
Its happening & we can push the efforts along, especially if we believe in unity & believe that credit should be given!

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I'm speaking in generalities here. However, if someone is telling you "Hey, I heard from about 8 people who grew up with him that he is just no good." Then it goes a bit beyond the person telling you being biased. If they say I heard from this one guy or I heard from this one guy and his friend...then bias will play a role.

Sorry I am still a bit confused with your point. Do you mean if 8 people said Gen Choi was bad, that this takes away from what he did all around the world for countless numbers of his students?
Any person can have faults & character flaws, in fact all humans have them. Likewise one person can never make everyone happy, nor command or act in a way that everyone likes them. None of that in my view should ever take away from what they accomplished & what they contributed.
Don't you agree?

 

[Earl Weiss]

...........................
Anyway, my point is Killing Art rings of the same cloak and dagger tale. Though the author tries to play a "unbiased" roll it is clear this is a pro-Choi book.

I tend to see a pattern among those who read "A Killing Art" vis a vis their feelings toward General Choi.
If they disliked him before reading the book they felt it unduly flattering.

 

[miguksaram]

I tend to see a pattern among those who read "A Killing Art" vis a vis their feelings toward General Choi.
If they disliked him before reading the book they felt it unduly flattering.

Actually it was just the opposite. I was not a huge fan of Choi, but the opening chapter had me thinking that the author had no love for him either as it seemed that he was trying to show him as being an @sshole. Perhaps it was a tactical ploy to get people like myself to think that it will be more unbiased than we thought...then again perhaps I am giving the author too much credit in doing such a thing. However, from what I have read thus far it just seems that was a ploy in hopes to lead the reader to think he is being unbiased in the book.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Actually it was just the opposite. I was not a huge fan of Choi, but the opening chapter had me thinking that the author had no love for him either as it seemed that he was trying to show him as being an @sshole. Perhaps it was a tactical ploy to get people like myself to think that it will be more unbiased than we thought...then again perhaps I am giving the author too much credit in doing such a thing. However, from what I have read thus far it just seems that was a ploy in hopes to lead the reader to think he is being unbiased in the book.

No I think it was more that while he found out that Gen Choi did have many personal flaws & character defects (as all humans do) it did not take away from what he did, as that was what he did. This was different for many of Gen Choi's followers, & Mr Gillis was not 1 of them, as Gen Choi's followers more often then not, only listened to Gen Choi's side & were dismissive of others attacks on their idol or leader.
I knew early on that Gen Choi had a strong ego, was a driven man & had a leadership style that made it difficult for people to follow him. He was in many ways a dictator himself. Students might not see that too clearly, as they were looking up to him on a pedestal. However those of us who could step outside of that zone & of course Gen Choi's peers, were not blinded by that light of awe. Gen Choi was a shred tactician. I think he used that aurora to help him move forward his agenda.
Now Mr Gillis was just a student of TKD, looking to sweat while he learned to protect himself. He is also an investigative journalist that is a writing instructor at the college level in Toronto. He came across this story as he trained with people that knew Gen choi personally & studied under him directly, as Gen Choi escaped to Toronto in 1972, the height of the brutality under the Park military dictatorship. So the ITF was strong in that city & area. It also served as ITF headquarters for 13 years, before it moved to Vienna Austria, a politically neutral country to allow easier access to the communist & socialist nations, as Austria is between east & western Europe.
It was when conversations peeked his interest that he embarked on his in-depth research. It also should be pointed out that he also did Kukki TKD as well & his daughter was training in Kukki TKD as well. What Mr Gillis says about his experience was that TKD is supposed to be this nobel activity with high ideals. For him, that was an important part of his martial art training. He however, was deeply saddened by what he found out about many of TKD leaders. In a way, he came to know that some of the things that Puunui says about Gen Choi were true. He came to discover through his research that Gen Choi was a flawed person (as we all are in some manor), had his detractors & made mistakes. But not of that takes away from the recording of what the man accomplish! Some of which was never done before on the scale that he did.
Like him or not, it is clear that Gen Choi was a great martial artist that has affected many lives around the world with his work. Just because those lives are not that of Kukki TKDin, does not diminish he great contributions.

 

[dancingalone]

Try reading his autobiography and see how you feel after that.

I own a copy. Perhaps I'll start reading it. After A Killing Art however, I don't feel like reading anything that may have the same themes, albeit from exclusively one side. I may need to stick to comic books and Dean Koontz for a while.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I own a copy. Perhaps I'll start reading it. After A Killing Art however, I don't feel like reading anything that may have the same themes, albeit from exclusively one side. I may need to stick to comic books and Dean Koontz for a while.

Please do & if you do get around to reading it, please pay particular attention to the research he did & the references, along with the 400+ footnotes. If you do that, you will see that it is not 1 sided.

I often think what is the definition of one sided?
It appears that it usually means, if it does not agree with my understanding, what I thought or have come to believe, then it is 1 sided! It sounds a lot like the political debate in the USA that we hear about, red vs blue, liberal vs conservative, dems vs repubs etc.
The history of TKD is much like these political debates like fixing public education. Answers will come from both sides of the aisle, as there is no 1 simple solution to complicated & complex problems, just simple phrases that 1 side can use against their opponents on a bumper sticker or that will make that all important blip as a sound bite on the news. To many listen to the special interests that fund these political battles. It is about time that Americans see through this hogwash, as the only ones that win are the politicians that get the money donated to them & those same special interests that give the money to buy access & get what they want. Meanwhile education is still broke, it don't educate nuttin.
TKD is much the same. It is not ITF vs WTF, it is simply recording what happened, where & when did it happen & who helped make it happen. I admire, respect & hold in high regard Dr Kim, GMs Lee, Uhm & Lee, among many others that worked so hard to give the world Taekwondo. I am amazed that so many have such apparent disdain for Gen Choi & seem to be so set against giving credit where credit is due. How is that in the spirit of the martial arts?

 

[dancingalone]

Please do & if you do get around to reading it, please pay particular attention to the research he did & the references, along with the 400+ footnotes. If you do that, you will see that it is not 1 sided.

It wouldn't particularly bother me if his autobiography was one-sided. An autobiography is a person telling his own life story after all. It is not objective or critical history. It would be an unusual one indeed if General Choi's book attempts to cover the same events also from the eyes of his opponents.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Oh so sorry I mixed up the Killing Art with the autobio
;(

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Please do & if you do get around to reading it, please pay particular attention to the research he did & the references, along with the 400+ footnotes. If you do that, you will see that it is not 1 sided.

I often think what is the definition of one sided?
It appears that it usually means, if it does not agree with my understanding, what I thought or have come to believe, then it is 1 sided! It sounds a lot like the political debate in the USA that we hear about, red vs blue, liberal vs conservative, dems vs repubs etc.
The history of TKD is much like these political debates like fixing public education. Answers will come from both sides of the aisle, as there is no 1 simple solution to complicated & complex problems, just simple phrases that 1 side can use against their opponents on a bumper sticker or that will make that all important blip as a sound bite on the news. To many listen to the special interests that fund these political battles. It is about time that Americans see through this hogwash, as the only ones that win are the politicians that get the money donated to them & those same special interests that give the money to buy access & get what they want. Meanwhile education is still broke, it don't educate nuttin.
TKD is much the same. It is not ITF vs WTF, it is simply recording what happened, where & when did it happen & who helped make it happen. I admire, respect & hold in high regard Dr Kim, GMs Lee, Uhm & Lee, among many others that worked so hard to give the world Taekwondo. I am amazed that so many have such apparent disdain for Gen Choi & seem to be so set against giving credit where credit is due. How is that in the spirit of the martial arts?

Congrats! I think this post got you your M/T purple belt!

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Congrats! I think this post got you your M/T purple belt!

Daniel

What good does that do me, there is no purple belt in Taekwon-Do!

 

[chrispillertkd]

It wouldn't particularly bother me if his autobiography was one-sided. An autobiography is a person telling his own life story after all. It is not objective or critical history. It would be an unusual one indeed if General Choi's book attempts to cover the same events also from the eyes of his opponents.

True enough. I will say this, however, Gen. Choi's autiobiography really "let's it all hang out." He talks about the good and the bad and the impression I got from reading it was that he went to some lengths to give an accurate portrayal of his life. There were several incidents that he wrote about in his book that made me wonder why he was talking about them at all as he doesn't come out in a particularly good light in them.

I'm hoping that at some point the third volume gets translated into English. Maybe one day, but it was supposed to be in the works for several years now and I haven't seen any sign of it as yet.

Pax,

Chris