Women Self Defence!

[drop bear]

It seems the subject of women's self defence is a difficult one for some to discuss, as is defence against rape. I would suggest actually closing the thread. I doubt the discussion will continue in any meaningful way, at least meaningful to females.

It's no surprise that so few if any other women ever post on here. We used to have a lot, this is the sort of thing that drives them away.

I am confused as to the difficulty.

What is the difference between avoiding being bashed and avoiding being raped?

You either out fight them. Or out maneuver them. Or a combination of both.

And the tactics are almost interchangeable.

So for example this is a scenario that would be applicable in women's self defence.

US teenager bashed by 'friends' who lured her to a sleep over

This is the horrifying moment that a teenage girl was viciously bashed by a group of so-called friends who lured her to a sleep over.

au.news.yahoo.com

But is a common scenario for men as well.(this used to happen around where I lived)
The gender is the most irrelevant part of the issue.

 

[Tez3]

I am confused as to the difficulty.

What is the difference between avoiding being bashed and avoiding being raped?

You either out fight them. Or out maneuver them. Or a combination of both.

And the tactics are almost interchangeable.

So for example this is a scenario that would be applicable in women's self defence.

US teenager bashed by 'friends' who lured her to a sleep over

This is the horrifying moment that a teenage girl was viciously bashed by a group of so-called friends who lured her to a sleep over.

au.news.yahoo.com

But is a common scenario for men as well.(this used to happen around where I lived)
The gender is the most irrelevant part of the issue.

and that post shows exactly what I mean.

 

[drop bear]

and that post shows exactly what I mean.

Well yeah. Because you are arguing this partisan feelings based marketing has priority over a clinical risk assessment.

But I don't agree with this premis to start with.

 

[Tez3]

Well yeah. Because you are arguing this partisan feelings based marketing has priority over a clinical risk assessment.

But I don't agree with this premis to start with.

If you are ever raped get back to me because then you might take it seriously.

 

[drop bear]

If you are ever raped get back to me because then you might take it seriously.

If I ever get raped. I would take an expert on the subject seriously.

I would get counselling from an expert.

I would get legal advice from an expert.

I would get medical care from an expert

And self defence advice from an expert.

I wouldn't care if my legal representative can empathise with me as a man, what gender he or she is. Or if my doctor understands what it is like to be raped also.

I want them to know how to do their jobs.

Simple as that.

If someone suggested that the best response, should I get raped is for all men just not to rape people. I wouldn't take them very seriously. Because that wouldn't help me one bit.

What these partisan approaches help, is the organisations that benifits from these divisions. Someone gets raped. It is not about what can be done for the victim. But what the victim can do for the cause.

 

[Tez3]

If I ever get raped. I would take an expert on the subject seriously.

I would get counselling from an expert.

I would get legal advice from an expert.

I would get medical care from an expert

And self defence advice from an expert.

I wouldn't care if my legal representative can empathise with me as a man, what gender he or she is. Or if my doctor understands what it is like to be raped also.

I want them to know how to do their jobs.

Simple as that.

If someone suggested that the best response, should I get raped is for all men just not to rape people. I wouldn't take them very seriously. Because that wouldn't help me one bit.

What these partisan approaches help, is the organisations that benifits from these divisions. Someone gets raped. It is not about what can be done for the victim. But what the victim can do for the cause.

You are not addressing the problem, you are expressing a political view.

The subject is women's self defence.

I have not and never said teach men not to rape, what I and other women are saying is start seeing that unwanted sexual touches are assault, that how one is dressed is not an invitation for unwanted sexual abuse. That previous sexual history is not an excuse for sexual assault. That 90% of rapes and sexual assaults are committed by someone known to the victim.

In the stereotypical scenario given by most self defence instructors a female is attacked by a stranger. The first advice is don't walk out alone, don't go to certain places, don't wear revealing clothes, don't flirt with strangers, don't drink too much etc.
When someone, a male most likely is held up In a mugging, he has a choice he can fight or give over his money and valuables, his chances of winning a fight very depending on his skill and what the mugger is armed with.
When a woman is confronted by a man, stranger to her, intent on rape what does she do? Her choice is to fight, but he's singled her out because of her vulnerabilities, or she can 'give' him what he wants, to violate and humiliate her. To force her to be penetrated and wounded or she can fight him and be battered then violated. If she's extremely lucky and rarely does this happen she may be able to trick him or appeal to any better nature.

Afterwards, what happens? Does she report it? She should of course but is unlikely to, the police won't know unless someone else calls them. If she does them she would be very glad of medical staff who empathise with a rape victim, as she's again forced to undergo an invasion of her intimate self, swabs taken from her vagina and anus, her pubic hair combed through for evidence, nails cleaned out, photographs taken of her body.

Police statements next, empathetic officers hopefully not just ones who know their business which we hope they do. How much had she drunk, who did she talk to, what was she wearing, how many sexual partners had she had, was she flirting, was she leading anyone on, did she know her attacker. Did she fight back, if not why not? Did he climax inside her, did she climax............ Yes that's a question asked.


That's just the start, if it gets to court it's worse.

So, female self defence...................

 

[drop bear]

You are not addressing the problem, you are expressing a political view.

The subject is women's self defence.

I have not and never said teach men not to rape, what I and other women are saying is start seeing that unwanted sexual touches are assault, that how one is dressed is not an invitation for unwanted sexual abuse. That previous sexual history is not an excuse for sexual assault. That 90% of rapes and sexual assaults are committed by someone known to the victim.

In the stereotypical scenario given by most self defence instructors a female is attacked by a stranger. The first advice is don't walk out alone, don't go to certain places, don't wear revealing clothes, don't flirt with strangers, don't drink too much etc.
When someone, a male most likely is held up In a mugging, he has a choice he can fight or give over his money and valuables, his chances of winning a fight very depending on his skill and what the mugger is armed with.
When a woman is confronted by a man, stranger to her, intent on rape what does she do? Her choice is to fight, but he's singled her out because of her vulnerabilities, or she can 'give' him what he wants, to violate and humiliate her. To force her to be penetrated and wounded or she can fight him and be battered then violated. If she's extremely lucky and rarely does this happen she may be able to trick him or appeal to any better nature.

Afterwards, what happens? Does she report it? She should of course but is unlikely to, the police won't know unless someone else calls them. If she does them she would be very glad of medical staff who empathise with a rape victim, as she's again forced to undergo an invasion of her intimate self, swabs taken from her vagina and anus, her pubic hair combed through for evidence, nails cleaned out, photographs taken of her body.

Police statements next, empathetic officers hopefully not just ones who know their business which we hope they do. How much had she drunk, who did she talk to, what was she wearing, how many sexual partners had she had, was she flirting, was she leading anyone on, did she know her attacker. Did she fight back, if not why not? Did he climax inside her, did she climax............ Yes that's a question asked.


That's just the start, if it gets to court it's worse.

So, female self defence...................

Is either about out fighting or out maneuvering the person who wants to hurt you.

I have not and never said teach men not to rape, what I and other women are saying is start seeing that unwanted sexual touches are assault, that how one is dressed is not an invitation for unwanted sexual abuse. That previous sexual history is not an excuse for sexual assault. That 90% of rapes and sexual assaults are committed by someone known to the victim.

Ok. Where have you said the above before now?

Because you have pointed the vaguely accusing finger at society. And "male attitudes" which is a huge generalization.

"Men should stop telling women what they should do and instead address the problem of male violence against women."

"It's also not addressing my point about male attitudes to females which are perpetrated, and condoned by a great part of society. It's seen in government, by celebrities, by the media and in what would be considered good religious families. Look at the men who send unsolicited dick pics, where's the statistics for tnat? Why do so many men send them? Why do they think they can do that? It's the thin edge of the wedge, an example of attitude that leads men to believe they can do what they like. We need to stop enabling."

 

[Tez3]

Is either about out fighting or out maneuvering the person who wants to hurt you.


Ok. Where have you said the above before now?

Because you have pointed the vaguely accusing finger at society. And "male attitudes" which is a huge generalization.

"Men should stop telling women what they should do and instead address the problem of male violence against women."

"It's also not addressing my point about male attitudes to females which are perpetrated, and condoned by a great part of society. It's seen in government, by celebrities, by the media and in what would be considered good religious families. Look at the men who send unsolicited dick pics, where's the statistics for tnat? Why do so many men send them? Why do they think they can do that? It's the thin edge of the wedge, an example of attitude that leads men to believe they can do what they like. We need to stop enabling."

Sweetie, I am, as instructed by the Mod, trying to get the thread back to women's self defence, you want to rehash past posts which you have taken out of context as they were specific answers to specific posts.

But, addressing the problem is NOT telling men not to rape. Enabling abusers is done by a great many people, male and female, as well famously, American presidents......'I grab them by the pussy' to cheers by his supporters. Society needs to stop excusing such behaviours as 'boys will be boys or it's just men being men.'

So, what would you teach on how to fight your way out of these scenarios,in a car, an office, when you are in bed asleep, in a toilet, on a bus, against someone with an edged weapon at your neck who you know and you didn't feel you needed to be on your guard with such as a teacher, fellow worker, bus/cab driver, friend's boyfriend/father/brother etc etc. Too easy and far too vague to say just fight.


I did some checking on rape support groups in the UK, the majority if not all were started and run by rape survivors including the ones for men and the adult survivors of child sexual abuse.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

So working off the basis that females tend to one hand clinch(normally grabbing hair) and then slap the hell out of the other female when fighting. (a trend i have observed in watching many videos of them fighting, at least ones in the U.S) Does anyone know anyway you would practise that?

This is at least social violence. Only thing i can think of would be general clinch practise with that in mind. Or break the mould and just straight punch the other one in the face, that tends to work as no one sees soemthing cultrurally void as coming.

 

[Hanzou]

This looks conducive to the discussion;

Chokes are a highly effective way for weaker individuals to stop stronger individuals in close quarter fighting.

 

[Tez3]

So working off the basis that females tend to one hand clinch(normally grabbing hair) and then slap the hell out of the other female when fighting. (a trend i have observed in watching many videos of them fighting, at least ones in the U.S) Does anyone know anyway you would practise that?

This is at least social violence. Only thing i can think of would be general clinch practise with that in mind. Or break the mould and just straight punch the other one in the face, that tends to work as no one sees soemthing cultrurally void as coming.

How will that work if a female is asleep in bed when attacked? or against a man larger, heavier and stronger?

 

[Tez3]

This looks conducive to the discussion;

Chokes are a highly effective way for weaker individuals to stop stronger individuals in close quarter fighting.

I do think BJJ is the most practicable style for women when it comes to having a chance of fending off an attacker, the problem though like all self defence techniques though is having the instinct ingrained enough to be able to use it. The other thing I've found about BJJ is that how you put a technique on can be almost 'customised' to suit your size/strength. I found a particular arm bar difficult, I'm small, the instructor moved my body placement slightly so I could get a much better angle on it.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

This looks conducive to the discussion;

Chokes are a highly effective way for weaker individuals to stop stronger individuals in close quarter fighting.

Define choke. Because grappling requires more athelticism than just punching someone, so if you are smaller and weaker, you probbly dont want a bigger and stronger person on you. Where as anyone can get knocked out with a single punch if you get lucky.

Even pretty compotent people in grappling struggle until they get the tactics down to beat somone at least that knows the basics who is at least noticably bigger and stronger. (you dont get the benfit of knowing your opponent in fighting normally outside of sport)

Not to say you shouldnt do it, but people tag that as the go to, you can just click your fingers and have somone in a choke hold. No fighting is really made for, or is meant to be done by people who arent atheltic.

Addendum: this is also not accounting the adrenilzation, and the fact you are basically killing them and their kill or get killed response. Whcih means said person gets even stronger than you and you are withing grappling range.

 

[Hanzou]

Define choke. Because grappling requires more athelticism than just punching someone, so if you are smaller and weaker, you probbly dont want a bigger and stronger person on you. Where as anyone can get knocked out with a single punch if you get lucky.

Even pretty compotent people in grappling struggle until they get the tactics down to beat somone at least that knows the basics who is at least noticably bigger and stronger. (you dont get the benfit of knowing your opponent in fighting normally outside of sport)

Not to say you shouldnt do it, but people tag that as the go to, you can just click your fingers and have somone in a choke hold. No fighting is really made for, or is meant to be done by people who arent atheltic.

Addendum: this is also not accounting the adrenilzation, and the fact you are basically killing them and their kill or get killed response. Whcih means said person gets even stronger than you and you are withing grappling range.

Where did I say a woman would develop these skills through “magic”? She would develop these skills through diligent practice.

Wouldn’t a woman develop athleticism, dealing with the adrenaline dump, and developing the skill to choke through training?

 

[Hanzou]

I do think BJJ is the most practicable style for women when it comes to having a chance of fending off an attacker, the problem though like all self defence techniques though is having the instinct ingrained enough to be able to use it. The other thing I've found about BJJ is that how you put a technique on can be almost 'customised' to suit your size/strength. I found a particular arm bar difficult, I'm small, the instructor moved my body placement slightly so I could get a much better angle on it.

I feel that you develop the instinct through practice. You get on the mat and constantly roll with bigger, stronger, hairer men. Competing also develops that instinct too.

Heck, the first time I got choked out in Bjj was against a woman less than half my size putting me in a viscous triangle choke.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Define choke. Because grappling requires more athelticism than just punching someone, so if you are smaller and weaker, you probbly dont want a bigger and stronger person on you. Where as anyone can get knocked out with a single punch if you get lucky.

Even pretty compotent people in grappling struggle until they get the tactics down to beat somone at least that knows the basics who is at least noticably bigger and stronger. (you dont get the benfit of knowing your opponent in fighting normally outside of sport)

Not to say you shouldnt do it, but people tag that as the go to, you can just click your fingers and have somone in a choke hold. No fighting is really made for, or is meant to be done by people who arent atheltic.

Addendum: this is also not accounting the adrenilzation, and the fact you are basically killing them and their kill or get killed response. Whcih means said person gets even stronger than you and you are withing grappling range.

I'd argue the opposite. Grappling basics yield more rewards against an oversized opponent than striking. It takes more skill IMO to generate a powerful punch from a small, light frame than to get an effective choke.

 

[Tez3]

I'd argue the opposite. Grappling basics yield more rewards against an oversized opponent than striking. It takes more skill IMO to generate a powerful punch from a small, light frame than to get an effective choke.

True, ignoring other issues, I know I can get a RNC on a strong man and make it work but even with many years of punching in sparring and full contact comps I cannot KO a heavyweight man, a lightweight one certainly, perhaps a light middleweight with my adrenaline working for me but I'm not going to put my safety on the line by having a punching match with an attacker.
My goal is distract and disable long enough to escape, I do not want to be fighting. If I can get a choke on, hold it until they're out, yes, but I'm not fighting for it. Escape must be the first priority and how you do that makes for a very good discussion.

 

[Hanzou]

I'd argue the opposite. Grappling basics yield more rewards against an oversized opponent than striking. It takes more skill IMO to generate a powerful punch from a small, light frame than to get an effective choke.

I’d also point out that a female Bjj practitioner will be very effective fighting on her back in missionary position, since that is essentially the Guard, one of BJJ’s principal fighting positions. She should be doubly effective from that position because female practitioners are constantly pushed into the guard position by their larger, stronger classmates.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I'd argue the opposite. Grappling basics yield more rewards against an oversized opponent than striking. It takes more skill IMO to generate a powerful punch from a small, light frame than to get an effective choke.

Probbly a lot of nuance. It should be done, but it shouldnt be sold as the end all, as the biggest caivate has just been brought up. Its based on boxers chance, vs a consitent need for a lot of strength pretty much.

Where did I say a woman would develop these skills through “magic”? She would develop these skills through diligent practice.

Wouldn’t a woman develop athleticism, dealing with the adrenaline dump, and developing the skill to choke through training?

Never said you did, but people usually cite "BJJ" for "weaker people", when grappling is a very strength intensive thing. They seem to think you would by magic be able to beat somone double your size because you did some BJJ classes. It has value but its not the end all be all some people cite it as. (BJJ is jsut a example, we could potentially get into which type of grappling may be best for this)

Addendum: As far as female on female goes, id think maybe Muay thai and judo would be good fits. Or at least anything that has a heavy amount of clinch work in it. But caviate would still be bigger stronger people.

 

[Tez3]

1. Grappling isn't really a huge strength thing, it's a technique and skill based style. In MMA training we often put fighters in training up against lighter, smaller people (often the girls as Hanzou says it's good practice for them too) and tell them to not use their strength but only technique. Strength is no advantage in a bout where they are matched, so technique will be the decider (fitness and tactics too of course but not the point here). Once they get the idea of not muscling through their opponents (very tiring) after being tapped out by weaker people, their skills develop well and it shows in the cage. Yes, they could use their strength on the weaker people as would an assailant but the weaker ones have a much greater chance of escaping through techniques, quickness and training than they ever would punching it out.